Solutions then

[prometeus]

My solution would be to criminalize abortion.

Sorry, been there done that and if you did not know it did not work.
You know, some define insanity as doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome...

 

[BDBoop]

I don't wish I was 12. Everything from 11 to probably 22 was really, really bad.

I sure wish I was.

sorry, I did not mean to interfere with your husband's routine, but this is hardly a family discussion and if it was he missed...

 

[ashley.hunt60]

I don't like to sympathize with a pregnant woman unable to get an abortion. Honestly, it scares the hell out of me. I'm too young, too poor, too emotionally unavailable. I sympathize a lot more easily with the woman though than the fetus. Probably because the fetus has no emotions to sympathize with. I'm not sure if I would get an illegal abortion. I want to say I wouldn't, just because of the dangers, but panic and terror does something to common sense. Point is, back-alley abortions will never end. It's hard to scare someone out of something when they are already terrified. And where there is money to be made, a never-ending stream of illegal abortionists will follow.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You're Utopia isn't without famine, poverty, disease and all other elements that kill off countless children before they turn 5 world wide.
Now - in a pure Utopian society, if every single person born could live a healthy, purposeful and profound life then we'd have something to talk about.

Until we cure aids, end all forms of abuse and neglect, and resculpt society (and human nature) as a whole we have no grounds to believe that bringing more children into such a wretched world is *really* a good idea.

In my abortion free Utopia - all that is taken care of, everyone will birth and keep their children. . .and everyone will be a decent and responsible parent and raise their children rightly so.

*smokes that one - because it's NEVER going to happen. WE can't even solve homelessness and abuse in our own country*

 

[prometeus]

No, a natural miscarriage would not be prosecuted.

And you could tell the difference how?

Should everyone who dies have their death inspected for murder?

All causes of death are recorded and if not natural investigated.

If a woman leaves somewhere, had a miscarriage and shows signs that she had an illegal abortion preformed, then they should be prosecuted.

Perhaps a new use of water-boarding, that will make them confess.

If we take out the illegal abortion providers we can reduce the number of fetal murders.

You mean with hit men or just regular burning at the stake?

 

[OKgrannie]

An independent and unique human life is created at conception. .

Excuse me, would you please explain in what way a zef is "independent"?

Independent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: 1in·de·pen·dent
Pronunciation: \ˌin-də-ˈpen-dənt\
Function: adjective
Date: 1611
1 : not dependent: as a (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit <an independent bookstore> b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else : not contingent <an independent conclusion> (2) : not looking to others for one's opinions or for guidance in conduct (3) : not bound by or committed to a political party c (1) : not requiring or relying on others (as for care or livelihood) <independent of her parents> (2) : being enough to free one from the necessity of working for a living <a person of independent means> d : showing a desire for freedom <an independent manner> e (1) : not determined by or capable of being deduced or derived from or expressed in terms of members (as axioms or equations) of the set under consideration; especially : having linear independence <an independent set of vectors> (2) : having the property that the joint probability (as of events or samples) or the joint probability density function (as of random variables) equals the product of the probabilities or probability density functions of separate occurrence
2 capitalized : of or relating to the Independents
3 a : main 5 <an independent clause> b : neither deducible from nor incompatible with another statement <independent postulates>

 

[Winston Smith]

There would be more babies being born than there would be people available to adopt them. That was stated up-thread. Documented.

Well, I'm catching up with a long thread and must have missed it. Would you mind pointing out where this is documented?

 

[iangb]

Seriously, y'all. There are many, many childless couples waiting for every infant who's eligible to be adopted, regardless of ethnicity or health status. The solution is not that difficult.

In a single year in the US, there are ~127000 adoptions, of which almost half are in-familly (the child is adopted to a close relative). Depending on which year you look at, there are from 800,000 to 1,300,000 abortions. Even if the 'unwanted baby' rate was to halve due to abortions becoming illegal (something which is immensely overoptomistic, given humanities love of sexytime), you would still need the adoption rate to more than quadruple to make up the numbers (assuming in-familly adoption rates would increase at a similar rate, which is also unlikely) - and even then, it'd be a tight squeeze.

Adoption is definitely not a viable alternative. The numbers are too incomparable.

 

[MaggieD]

What is a zef?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

What is a zef?

zygote embryo fetus

 

[iangb]

What is a zef?

Z.E.F. - Zygote/Embryo/Foetus.

EDIT: Drat, beaten to it.

 

[MaggieD]

Adoption is definitely not a viable alternative. The numbers are too incomparable.

A viable alternative to what?

 

[OKgrannie]

What is a zef?

zygote/embryo/fetus

 

[digsbe]

Excuse me, would you please explain in what way a zef is "independent"?

Independent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: 1in·de·pen·dent
Pronunciation: \ˌin-də-ˈpen-dənt\
Function: adjective
Date: 1611
1 : not dependent: as a (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit <an independent bookstore> b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else : not contingent <an independent conclusion> (2) : not looking to others for one's opinions or for guidance in conduct (3) : not bound by or committed to a political party c (1) : not requiring or relying on others (as for care or livelihood) <independent of her parents> (2) : being enough to free one from the necessity of working for a living <a person of independent means> d : showing a desire for freedom <an independent manner> e (1) : not determined by or capable of being deduced or derived from or expressed in terms of members (as axioms or equations) of the set under consideration; especially : having linear independence <an independent set of vectors> (2) : having the property that the joint probability (as of events or samples) or the joint probability density function (as of random variables) equals the product of the probabilities or probability density functions of separate occurrence
2 capitalized : of or relating to the Independents
3 a : main 5 <an independent clause> b : neither deducible from nor incompatible with another statement <independent postulates>

It is independent in the sense that it does not share a will with it's mother, and it is not the mother. I could have used a better word. Regardless, it is not the mother's life that is terminated in an abortion.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Using the tag 'zef' wraps 3 terms up for an unborn. . . .because people will get distracted with symantics and devolve into an argument of "it's a fetus" "no it's an embryo" . . . and so on.

so some people play it safe, cover all bases, avoid derail.

 

[iangb]

It is independent in the sense that it does not share a will with it's mother, and it is not the mother. I could have used a better word. Regardless, it is not the mother's life that is terminated in an abortion.

It doesn't share the will with the mother because it doesn't have any will of it's own. As soon as it does have a will of it's own, you'll find that most pro-choicers also become 'pro-life'; thus utterly destroying the 'life/choice' dichotomy, and rightfully so.

A ZEF is dependent on the mother. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this debate; evictionism would have won out a long time ago. In the future, maybe it will.

 

[NolaMan]

How about instead of assuming you learn the facts?

Facts like what? That her daughter became pregnant on birth control? Ok that is a fact. Since she said it occured twice rather quickly, the odds of that occuring while using birth control properly are basically 0%. My assumptions stand.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

It doesn't share the will with the mother because it doesn't have any will of it's own. As soon as it does have a will of it's own, you'll find that most pro-choicers also become 'pro-life'; thus utterly destroying the 'life/choice' dichotomy, and rightfully so.

A ZEF is dependent on the mother. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this debate; evictionism would have won out a long time ago. In the future, maybe it will.

I actually support evictionism - but only if all other issues in a Utopian society are taken care of.

*ignores the 1st and 2nd Noble Truth, jumps straight to the 4th.*

 

[NolaMan]

Well, hey, that's ducky, then. Will we quit screening adoptive parents altogether, or just let the inconvenient parts of the process slide? What about children who don't get adopted? Will we just warehouse them?

No, we will continue to screen perspective parents, but there is no sense in making them wait years, especially when they are well qualified. As for warehousing kids, not sure where you got that from, except maybe your imagination.

What if a biological mother decides to keep a child she really doesn't have the resources to support? Will you forcibly remove that child from her? Will you support increasing the resources available to her?

No, I will not forcibly remove the child, unless the mother is starving the child the death or something like that. And what exactly do you mean "increase the resources available to her"?

I'm not seeing a lot of concrete answers here. So far most of you appear to bear out Barney Frank's characterization of "pro-lifers" as believing that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

What answer do you want? The government will ensure that you make $50,000 a year, have healthcare, two cars, and 2.5 kids? Life does not end at birth, you take responsibility for own life.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You know, though - if they just made BC mandatory in one way or another that would likely cut down on unplanned pregnancies.
But that infringes on 'human rights' and all that drama just as much :shrug:

 

[BDBoop]

I think you just made my point.

What answer do you want? The government will ensure that you make $50,000 a year, have healthcare, two cars, and 2.5 kids? Life does not end at birth, you take responsibility for own life.

 

[NolaMan]

I think you just made my point.

Well if your point is for the creation of a welfare state, then so be it.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Well if your point is for the creation of a welfare state, then so be it.

In what regard?

Putting everyone on BC?
Or wanting the world to be free of suffering in all forms?

Neither have to be 'welfare' - one would be a mandate to avoid people having to *get* on welfare. . . and the other would provide a stable life for everyone so they don't *need* welfare.

 

[MaggieD]

How 'bout this, BDBoop --

If Roe v Wade were ever overturned, women in the United States would become nothing nore than incubators. They would be oppressed by the men in our society in every way, leading possibly to their having to wear Berkas. Their babies would be ripped from their arms; they'd be sterilized. If RvW were overturned, our orphanages would be filled with mindless, yet tortured, robots whose mere existence was a horrible stain on the United States of America. Our welfare state would explode. Women would be dying left and right as they used vacuum cleaners, back-alley hacks and coat hangers in an effort to DIY.

I think that summarizes what I've read here.


Or........they'd just use birth control responsibly.

 

[NolaMan]

In what regard?

Putting everyone on BC?
Or wanting the world to be free of suffering in all forms?

Neither have to be 'welfare' - one would be a mandate to avoid people having to *get* on welfare. . . and the other would provide a stable life for everyone so they don't *need* welfare.

"Provide a stable life for everyone so they don't need welfare"... that is rich.