Software design, not just demand behind health exchange problems.

[Dickieboy]

Interesting to see that most of the complaints about the healthcare.gov site on this thread are from right-leaning people trying to get on. My questions would be: If you hate the law so much, why are you trying to be one of the first to get on? Also, do you really think the server capacities should accommodate "healthcare tourists?" Do all of you need insurance or what?

We for 'one' currently have health insurance through BCBS. The policies we have do not comply with PPACA (mine doesn't have maternity...which given that I am a 61yo male seems logical) and my wife's premium is too high (?). BCBS in our state is engaged in the exchange thus to get another policy with them we must purchase it through the exchange. I called them today to verify that this was the case and they confirmed. As they are the largest by far insurer in this state it seems prudent to engage with them as their size provides leverage and options with providers.

Does this answer your questions sufficiently?

ps. yes the 'healthcare tourist' (especially the reporters/journalists who try to 'shop' while on air) are pissin' me off as I have a legitimate need! And for the record I don't hate the law but remain open minded to see if it will work. My question to you (et al) is if it is indeed a failure will you ever admit it?

 

[Dickieboy]

Funny, but the article linked to in the OP doesn't actually identify one single design flaw, nor does it quote anyone besides private insurance employees claiming that there are design flaws

BTW, I've managed to set up an account and got an email to authenticate my account, which I clicked on. From there I was able to finish about half of the questions required in order to "go shopping"

If the acct setup and security question pages were indeed flawed, I would not have been able to get as far as I have. Obviously, the problem isn't the coding or the design; It's the traffic. Pages are timing out before they can be fully processed

Does you state have its own exchange or are you going on the heathcare.gov site?
I have gotten as far as authentication email and link back to login page but no further (no page past login) on healthcare.gov.

 

[notquiteright]

And in other news, California (one of many) overstated their traffic by 87% with less than a million hits the first day instead of over 5 million claimed.

More CONvolutions trying to wiggle out of a bonehead statement. The above is what you said, so not even close! :lol:

 

[Papa bull]

More CONvolutions trying to wiggle out of a bonehead statement. The above is what you said, so not even close! :lol:

675,000 actual hits but they reported over 5 million. 87 percent of what they reported was bogus. Deal with it.

 

[notquiteright]

Yeah? Reduce 5 million by 87% and what do you get? Here, I'll help you since you seem to be challenged at math.

5,000,000 * 0.87 = 4,350,000. Well, what the hell do you know.... reduce the 5 million by 87 percent (5,000,000 - 4,350,000) = 650,000. So if there's any math error here, it's yours. The fact that the security questions weren't available in the dropdown had NOTHING to do with any complex series of checks through a secure port. Dropdown selections are basic functionality, so don't get all confused just because they were "security questions" and, therefore, had the word "security" in there to get your poor head all confused. If YOU had ANY experience with the security question system you'd know that is a package bought from a different Tech source, the tie in is critical.

I don't think so. This isn't complex technology that would have to be outsourced and even if it was, the black box should have been tested. This is basic alpha testing. Simply see if it works. Like at all. The first error was no dropdown options. After they got that fixed, the next error was one reporting that you had more than one security answer the same even when you didn't. Don't try to con me into believing that this was (a) so complex that they needed to buy a black box package for it or (b) that if they bought a black-box package that the error checking in this, apparently, pro-software was such crap. You're barking at the moon on that. And I'm not the one calling these things glitches. I've been arguing all along that these errors are much too large to call "glitches" but let's not get hung up on the terminology. I can't imagine a test case this could have passed and blaming it all on network issues is very convenient, especially since you can then even argue that it's just proof of success. I'm not surprised that you'd suspect this after seeing what sort of reasoning ability you have. As to experience. I wrote business applications for almost 20 years with a multi-national corporation with about the same annual sales as Wal-Mart. I managed several of my own websites and have done consulting for various web apps including MS Sharepoint. I've attended countless design meetings, worked on untold project teams of all sorts with people of all levels of experience and have been a key player in some very large implementations worldwide. And I can tell you that this launch has been a fiasco and a comedy of errors that reeks of incompetence.[/QUOTE]

And yet for all that bull you fling you seem completely unfamiliar with how difficult those major roll-outs are. The porting of any add-on package is always a weak point in the program. The new program for ACA reaches out and touches many existing programs in the Ohio system like welfare. Each splice has to be seamless or problems result. Managing a website is a challenge like this one has from time to time- you calling this website incompetently run?

Fact is the tie in is THE critical part as only so many can pass through. A lot depends on what the default is for a clog in the system.

My experience is with multi-nationals which had 148 people in the IT department. Not just one multi-national but 4.

You couldn't have been on too many world wide roll-outs that went on time and on budget. They are notorious for being the 'never ending consultant project'.

I like to say the devil isn't in the details but in middle manglement.

From Northrup Grumman to Telos- Agilent, HP itself, throw in QVC and Halliburton- NO major project has come in on time and on budget when it comes to major roll-outs, especially ones that reach into other pre-existing programs and or has a security portal to pass through.

 

[Papa bull]

I don't think so. This isn't complex technology that would have to be outsourced and even if it was, the black box should have been tested. This is basic alpha testing. Simply see if it works. Like at all. The first error was no dropdown options. After they got that fixed, the next error was one reporting that you had more than one security answer the same even when you didn't. Don't try to con me into believing that this was (a) so complex that they needed to buy a black box package for it or (b) that if they bought a black-box package that the error checking in this, apparently, pro-software was such crap. You're barking at the moon on that. And I'm not the one calling these things glitches. I've been arguing all along that these errors are much too large to call "glitches" but let's not get hung up on the terminology. I can't imagine a test case this could have passed and blaming it all on network issues is very convenient, especially since you can then even argue that it's just proof of success. I'm not surprised that you'd suspect this after seeing what sort of reasoning ability you have. As to experience. I wrote business applications for almost 20 years with a multi-national corporation with about the same annual sales as Wal-Mart. I managed several of my own websites and have done consulting for various web apps including MS Sharepoint. I've attended countless design meetings, worked on untold project teams of all sorts with people of all levels of experience and have been a key player in some very large implementations worldwide. And I can tell you that this launch has been a fiasco and a comedy of errors that reeks of incompetence.

And yet for all that bull you fling you seem completely unfamiliar with how difficult those major roll-outs are. The porting of any add-on package is always a weak point in the program. The new program for ACA reaches out and touches many existing programs in the Ohio system like welfare. Each splice has to be seamless or problems result. Managing a website is a challenge like this one has from time to time- you calling this website incompetently run?

Fact is the tie in is THE critical part as only so many can pass through. A lot depends on what the default is for a clog in the system.

My experience is with multi-nationals which had 148 people in the IT department. Not just one multi-national but 4.

You couldn't have been on too many world wide roll-outs that went on time and on budget. They are notorious for being the 'never ending consultant project'.

I like to say the devil isn't in the details but in middle manglement.

From Northrup Grumman to Telos- Agilent, HP itself, throw in QVC and Halliburton- NO major project has come in on time and on budget when it comes to major roll-outs, especially ones that reach into other pre-existing programs and or has a security portal to pass through.[/QUOTE]

So your IT department had 114 people. You figure that's a big IT department, huh? We had more than that just in our DIVISION. Go blow smoke up someone else's ass.

 

[sangha]

In all your brilliance, I suppose you missed the fact that your state's site could work while others could be completely buggered, huh? The Ohio site is still failing the last time I looked today.

And in all your brilliance I suppose you missed the fact that if *your* state is screwing up, it's *your* state's fault, and not Obama's or the Federal govt's fault.

 

[sangha]

Does you state have its own exchange or are you going on the heathcare.gov site?
I have gotten as far as authentication email and link back to login page but no further (no page past login) on healthcare.gov.

I went to the healthcare.gov site which directed me to my states website.

I got several pages in after the authorization. I got up to the "MEC" page (don't know if your state has that) which is basically a "Do you agree to the TOS?" thing. Then it crapped out. I still have to fill out income info before I can shop

 

[Papa bull]

And in all your brilliance I suppose you missed the fact that is *your* state is screwing up, it's *your* state's fault, and not Obama's or the Federal govt's fault.

It's a federal project. And our state opted out of building it's own, defaulting to the federal site. That's why so many people are remarking about the very same issues from various states (the ones that defaulted to the federal site). Swing and a miss. Wanna try again?

 

[Dickieboy]

I went to the healthcare.gov site which directed me to my states website.

I got several pages in after the authorization. I got up to the "MEC" page (don't know if your state has that) which is basically a "Do you agree to the TOS?" thing. Then it crapped out. I still have to fill out income info before I can shop

what is 'MEC' AND 'TOS'?

 

[sangha]

It's a federal project. And our state opted out of building it's own, defaulting to the federal site. That's why so many people are remarking about the very same issues from various states (the ones that defaulted to the federal site). Swing and a miss. Wanna try again?

So your state opted out?

And that's the Feds fault?

And again, the problems are caused by the huge amount of traffic, and not design or coding flaws.

 

[sangha]

what is 'MEC' AND 'TOS'?

Not sure what MEC stands for, but I compared it to TOS, which stands for "Terms of Service". The MEC (whatever that stands for) was basically a document that explains what it can use the info for, and your rights as a consumer, etc.

Think about when you install software, and you get the window with a bunch of info about licensing the app and asks you to check a checkbox that says "I have read the License and agree to its' terms" before it lets you complete the installation

 

[Dickieboy]

And again, the problems are caused by the huge amount of traffic, and not design or coding flaws.

Actually I heard late today the exchanges were to be down over the weekend, non-peak hours, to correct coding flaws. I can't find a source right now but heard it on CNN (for whatever that's worth).

Also I suspect MEC to be some agreement to 'share' your information 'inter-agency'.

 

[sangha]

Actually I heard late today the exchanges were to be down over the weekend, non-peak hours, to correct coding flaws. I can't find a source right now but heard it on CNN (for whatever that's worth).

That could mean anything, or it could just be a journalist misreporting something.

Also I suspect MEC to be some agreement to 'share' your information 'inter-agency'.

To be honest, I didn't read the damn thing, but I think you're correct about that

 

[Mycroft]

In any event, Obamacare set a hard deadline for rolling this piece of crap out...and they failed miserably. If they had been smart, they would have delayed the thing...many game developers do that as a matter of course. But then, that would have made the Democrats look bad, I guess, so I'm really not surprised they would go with a half-baked **** sandwich instead of making it sweet tasting like they should have.

So it goes.

 

[bubbabgone]

That's an odd question.

Why do you ask

?

Hey! ... that's what I was asking.

Because I heard some of the security questions were of a personal nature.
So were they like "What's your favorite color" or were they more like "How many sexual partners have you had"

 

[notquiteright]

And yet for all that bull you fling you seem completely unfamiliar with how difficult those major roll-outs are. The porting of any add-on package is always a weak point in the program. The new program for ACA reaches out and touches many existing programs in the Ohio system like welfare. Each splice has to be seamless or problems result. Managing a website is a challenge like this one has from time to time- you calling this website incompetently run? Fact is the tie in is THE critical part as only so many can pass through. A lot depends on what the default is for a clog in the system. My experience is with multi-nationals which had 148 people in the IT department. Not just one multi-national but 4. You couldn't have been on too many world wide roll-outs that went on time and on budget. They are notorious for being the 'never ending consultant project'. I like to say the devil isn't in the details but in middle manglement. From Northrup Grumman to Telos- Agilent, HP itself, throw in QVC and Halliburton- NO major project has come in on time and on budget when it comes to major roll-outs, especially ones that reach into other pre-existing programs and or has a security portal to pass through.

So your IT department had 114 people. You figure that's a big IT department, huh? We had more than that just in our DIVISION. Go blow smoke up someone else's ass.[/QUOTE]

Now I can tell you have no real experience with IT or being very precise about anything... I clearly said 148 people not 114. Programmers are FAR more attentive than you. I'd say the Bull is being flung by Papa. And that was Halliburton back before Cheney. Agilent and HP had FAR more in their IT depts... so as per usual you seem to struggle with what numbers mean.

Here is where you lack any understanding about roll-outs and what is involved. First the program needs to be Beta tested- difficult to do when there isn't a 'customer base' to draw from. Next the mini-frame the State uses doesn't just do the Exchange. At the EOM/BOM is when the financial section is drawing heavily on the computer's time. Billing out and collecting in. Next the SNAP program is demanding a lot of time to calculate the crediting SNAP food cards. Paying employees, updating their vacation/bennies.

Now lets that the 647,000 some Californians who flooded the state's computer network at an extremely busy computing time of the month. That is almost 27,000 each and every hour. But how many were trying in the wee hours of the nite? So lets say for the peak period of 11am to 2pm the average doubled. So for this peak period had over 800 new people a minute trying to access the website. If you have ever tried to create an account online for a merchant, say MidwayUSA (shooter supply), you know it takes at least 5 minutes- this insurance sign-up should take at least double that- you can see a backlog quickly forming.

Anyone who had done more than be a tiny cog in a huge IT shop or set-up more than a 20 hits a day mom and pop website should know these things. :doh

One funny little detail you obviously don't know. Few, if any state IT shops, well for that matter any IT shops that don't do computer programming as their business, have large enough IT shops to create brand new programs. The amount of code per screen is eqiv to hundreds of pages.

So the 'incompetent' people you attack are not government workers but highly paid and very skilled PRIVATE SECTOR IT folks, brought in. You flat-out are clueless on what it takes to do a major roll-out and the myriad of tiny details that can bring the system to a halt. Things like lack of Porting capacity in flood situations, poor connections between secure and public areas, missed minor errors in coding, no default loop to keep the process running, lousy documentation of the coding for others to trouble shoot (IT folks HATE having to do the documentation)

I mentioned this website having troubles, from floods of posts to what happened just last week. If we use your 'standards' this site is poorly run.

But if we remove the partisan hack from the standard it boils down to this- Bull happens... People are people and any computer system can be overwhelmed on opening day, especially when those who claim it will only drive rates up, flood onto it to try and cash in on the program... eace

 

[Dickieboy]

That could mean anything, or it could just be a journalist misreporting something.

Seems consistent:

The federal gateway website was taken down for repairs over the weekend, again hindering people from signing up for insurance.

News from The Associated Press

And I can confirm personally that after getting an account set up yesterday I have yet to get past the log in page including the 5 attempts so far today.

 

[sangha]

Hey! ... that's what I was asking.

Because I heard some of the security questions were of a personal nature.
So were they like "What's your favorite color" or were they more like "How many sexual partners have you had"

Neither

And of course the questions were of a "personal nature". The questions are meant to determine that you are who you say you are. How can they do that with "impersonal questions"?

They were about the sort of things you might find out from looking at someone's credit report.

 

[bubbabgone]

Neither

And of course the questions were of a "personal nature". The questions are meant to determine that you are who you say you are. How can they do that with "impersonal questions"?

They were about the sort of things you might find out from looking at someone's credit report.

Security questions can also be intended to identify that you are a returning person and as such it doesn't have to be personal r can be trivially personal.

Was it information you were surprised the Federal Government already had in order to verify you are who you say you are?
IOW, how do you know they weren't asking for something they didn't know yet or weren't entitled to know?

 

[sangha]

Security questions can also be intended to identify that you are a returning person and as such it doesn't have to be personal r can be trivially personal.

Was it information you were surprised the Federal Government already had in order to verify you are who you say you are?
IOW, how do you know they weren't asking for something they didn't know yet or weren't entitled to know?

I don't see how asking what my favorite color is could be used to verify my identity but to answer your questions, the questions were not surprising and I assumed their questions were based off of a credit report

 

[bubbabgone]

So your IT department had 114 people. You figure that's a big IT department, huh? We had more than that just in our DIVISION. Go blow smoke up someone else's ass.

Now I can tell you have no real experience with IT or being very precise about anything... I clearly said 148 people not 114. Programmers are FAR more attentive than you. I'd say the Bull is being flung by Papa. And that was Halliburton back before Cheney. Agilent and HP had FAR more in their IT depts... so as per usual you seem to struggle with what numbers mean.

Here is where you lack any understanding about roll-outs and what is involved. First the program needs to be Beta tested- difficult to do when there isn't a 'customer base' to draw from. Next the mini-frame the State uses doesn't just do the Exchange. At the EOM/BOM is when the financial section is drawing heavily on the computer's time. Billing out and collecting in. Next the SNAP program is demanding a lot of time to calculate the crediting SNAP food cards. Paying employees, updating their vacation/bennies.

Now lets that the 647,000 some Californians who flooded the state's computer network at an extremely busy computing time of the month. That is almost 27,000 each and every hour. But how many were trying in the wee hours of the nite? So lets say for the peak period of 11am to 2pm the average doubled. So for this peak period had over 800 new people a minute trying to access the website. If you have ever tried to create an account online for a merchant, say MidwayUSA (shooter supply), you know it takes at least 5 minutes- this insurance sign-up should take at least double that- you can see a backlog quickly forming.

Anyone who had done more than be a tiny cog in a huge IT shop or set-up more than a 20 hits a day mom and pop website should know these things. :doh

One funny little detail you obviously don't know. Few, if any state IT shops, well for that matter any IT shops that don't do computer programming as their business, have large enough IT shops to create brand new programs. The amount of code per screen is eqiv to hundreds of pages.

So the 'incompetent' people you attack are not government workers but highly paid and very skilled PRIVATE SECTOR IT folks, brought in. You flat-out are clueless on what it takes to do a major roll-out and the myriad of tiny details that can bring the system to a halt. Things like lack of Porting capacity in flood situations, poor connections between secure and public areas, missed minor errors in coding, no default loop to keep the process running, lousy documentation of the coding for others to trouble shoot (IT folks HATE having to do the documentation)

I mentioned this website having troubles, from floods of posts to what happened just last week. If we use your 'standards' this site is poorly run.

But if we remove the partisan hack from the standard it boils down to this- Bull happens... People are people and any computer system can be overwhelmed on opening day, especially when those who claim it will only drive rates up, flood onto it to try and cash in on the program... eace

serious question ... I'm just curious ... an informal study ... have you ever been flagged and point infracted here on DP?

 

[poweRob]

In all your brilliance, I suppose you missed the fact that your state's site could work while others could be completely buggered, huh? The Ohio site is still failing the last time I looked today.

Then why aren't you bitching about your Governor ****ing up the state's site? Oh that's right... he's a Republican.

 

[bubbabgone]

I don't see how asking what my favorite color is could be used to verify my identity but to answer your questions, the questions were not surprising and I assumed their questions were based off of a credit report

I said to be used if you had been there earlier and answered the question and others once already. Then favorite color could be used to verify you're the same person.

And the question remains ... how would the Government already know the answers to what they were asking you.

But anyway ... If I set up a fake site and asked you those same questions, would you answer?

 

[poweRob]

Security questions can also be intended to identify that you are a returning person and as such it doesn't have to be personal r can be trivially personal.

Was it information you were surprised the Federal Government already had in order to verify you are who you say you are?
IOW, how do you know they weren't asking for something they didn't know yet or weren't entitled to know?

Usually sites use such personal info for password recovery for when/if you forget your password.