So lefties want socialism because everybody would be in the same wealth class....

[Grand Mal]

No, I listen to what they say they want and that makes their desires quite clear. Their economic "plan" will virtually destroy the middle class. I've also challenged every loudmouth in here who ever claimed I was a racist or white supremacist to provide some proof. One post of mine would do. Not a one of them has backed up his blabbering. We see much the same in the media. Lots of character assassination of conservatives and virtually no facts.

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

Liberalism - Wikipedia.

 

[Lord of Planar]

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

Liberalism - Wikipedia.

So why do so many of you guys calling yourselves liberals want more government, censorship of thought, imposing your will on others, and demand special rights for minorities?

 

[veritas1]

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

Liberalism - Wikipedia.

That's nice. False but nice. That might be what a classical liberal believes. It's not what today's Democrats believe at all.

 

[Grand Mal]

So why do so many of you guys calling yourselves liberals want more government, censorship of thought, imposing your will on others, and demand special rights for minorities?

Go ask someone who wants that stuff. I'm sure as hell not going to defend a dumb position just because you said someone else says it.
I'll tell you one thing for free though, anyone who advocates that stuff is no liberal, I don't care what you, he or anyone else says. If you don't have liberal values you're not a liberal, capiche?

 

[veritas1]

So why do so many of you guys calling yourselves liberals want more government, censorship of thought, imposing your will on others, and demand special rights for minorities?

Speech codes, safe spaces, no guns, thought crimes, onerous regulation, high taxes, and on and on. Ironically, they also cause massive problems when they fail to do what they should do. The CA wildfires are a perfect example. Decades of undergrowth and dead trees which they have refused to clear are providing massive quantities of fuel for these fires. Their response? Blame "climate change" as if CA was never hot or dry before. No wonder the state is going under.

 

[Irwin Corey]

So, righties don't have a winning issue in this election so they are accusing the left of wanting to convert our government to socialism ... again. And yet, we never have, never will and never wanted to. What "PROGESSIVES" want is to build an America that is truly For Of and By the People; ALL AmeriCAN PEOPLE, not just the wealthy few.

So righties keep buying the Faux/Trump hate and division and we keep cycling through one "Republican financial crisis-Democrat pick up the pieces" cycle after another. Someday, I hope, enough AmeriCANs will see that and realize you can't ADD using DIVISON ... and hate.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Speech codes, safe spaces, no guns, thought crimes, onerous regulation, high taxes, and on and on. Ironically, they also cause massive problems when they fail to do what they should do. The CA wildfires are a perfect example. Decades of undergrowth and dead trees which they have refused to clear are providing massive quantities of fuel for these fires. Their response? Blame "climate change" as if CA was never hot or dry before. No wonder the state is going under.

Look at the fires in Oregon we are having. Many have been traced to arson. We should have never has such fires. Before the heavy winds hit, the power companies cut power where power poles and wires were susceptible. We had no lightning to start the fires. What remains is arson, and careless smokers.

But yes.

Forest management here in Oregon isn't what it used to be either. We have been thoroughly Californicated.

 

[Lord of Planar]

So, righties don't have a winning issue in this election so they are accusing the left of wanting to convert our government to socialism ... again. And yet, we never have, never will and never wanted to. What "PROGESSIVES" want is to build an America that is truly For Of and By the People; ALL AmeriCAN PEOPLE, not just the wealthy few.

So righties keep buying the Faux/Trump hate and division and we keep cycling through one "Republican financial crisis-Democrat pick up the pieces" cycle after another. Someday, I hope, enough AmeriCANs will see that and realize you can't ADD using DIVISON ... and hate.

Are you lost?

A large share of Americans really like what the president has done in terms of lowering tax rates, trying to get more favorable trade deals, and getting a handle on illegal immigration.

Are you living in a whole, or do you only read and listen to liberal bias?

Myself, I paid $4k less in taxes the first year the president got his tax cuts. Didn't you pay less, or were you not paying attention?

 

[Grand Mal]

That's nice. False but nice. That might be what a classical liberal believes. It's not what today's Democrats believe at all.

Do you think liberal and Democrat are synonymous?
Funny thing- I communicate with people from all over the world and everyone knows what I mean when I say I'm a Liberal except American conservatives of a certain subset. Some American conservatives have allowed themselves to become very confused on the subject.
Here's a tidbit for you- not long ago, in my adult lifetime, there were conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans. And people knew what those terms mean. Nowadays there's lots of people, on both sides of the aisle, who don't know and don't care what simple political terms mean but it doesn't stop them beaking off and proudly displaying their ignorance.

 

[Grand Mal]

Speech codes, safe spaces, no guns, thought crimes, onerous regulation, high taxes, and on and on. Ironically, they also cause massive problems when they fail to do what they should do. The CA wildfires are a perfect example. Decades of undergrowth and dead trees which they have refused to clear are providing massive quantities of fuel for these fires. Their response? Blame "climate change" as if CA was never hot or dry before. No wonder the state is going under.

Oh, more of that "forest management" stupidity. Going into the bush with rakes.
Say, did you know that about 45% of California is federally owned? Wanna guess how many acres that is? How come your Dear Leader is so badly mismanaging the federal forests?

 

[Luckyone]

.... Well then you guys then want EXTREME POVERTY for ALMOST EVERYONE who doesn't work for the government.

You really should get better informed before you make such uninformed posts. The Democrats that you call lefties, are not pushing to have everyone in the same wealth class. They are pushing for the wealthy to pay a fair share of what they earn. Right now, Buffett pays a lower tax rate than his secretary and she earns less than $100,000 a year and he earns billions. The wealthy have loopholes and ways to pay less tax rates than lowly workers simply because there are wealthy and can use those loopholes made for them. Bottom line, the wealthy are not paying their fair share, meaning that just because they are wealthy they get help that you and I don't.

The socialist ideas in the U.S. is not for income equality for all, they are for paying a fair share. What happens between Buffett and his secretary is totally unfair to all of us and needs to change.

 

[Variant]

.... Well then you guys then want EXTREME POVERTY for ALMOST EVERYONE who doesn't work for the government.

Not really. The capitalist European style liberal social democracies I would model some of our programs after don't have this outcome at all. If they did I wouldn't want those types of programs.

You should visit places like Canada or England or talk to people from there if you think doing something like having socialized medicine would turn the country into a hole in the ground.

In fact most american liberals, and especially most of their representatives, fall a bit to the right of most Europeans on the political spectrum in that we would advocate for more moderate programs than are commonly implemented in Europe.

But things like having more paid time off, or help with raising children or going to college are not in fact what is ruining the country right now. Poverty is a more stark problem in our more right wing capitalist country because we do such a poor job in helping people out of that situation or improving their condition while in it.

We're also doing a remarkably poor job in preparing people for the next wave of automation that is likely to make a lot of unskilled labor unemployed through no real fault of their own.

 

[Irwin Corey]

Are you lost?

A large share of Americans really like what the president has done in terms of lowering tax rates, trying to get more favorable trade deals, and getting a handle on illegal immigration.

Are you living in a whole, or do you only read and listen to liberal bias?

Myself, I paid $4k less in taxes the first year the president got his tax cuts. Didn't you pay less, or were you not paying attention?

Less than 40% liked what he's done econmically and that was before COVID.

Acually we've just moved from a very nice home in the mountains to an equally very nice home in the city because of my wifes health. I read and listen to a broad spectrum of media, obviously not the steady diet of RW bull**** you ascribe to.

Yes, our taxes went down, temporarily and will go right back up in 25, unless your one of the previleged few who's tax cut was perpetual; check out the video in post 211. Voodoo economics 2.0, I always pay attention AND I know you can't add using division as Trump is trying to do.

 

[JBG]

Dems are what they promote and they promote socialism, ever greater government control and the continued trampling of personal freedoms.

Socialism is the government (AS A COMMUNITY) OWNING ALL BUSINESSES. So which Dem candidate is advocating for the government to own all businesses? You are LYING flat out. Disgraceful but then you are a Trump supporter after all so LYING seems to be all you can do.

Or you can regulate-restrict to the point of owning.

 

[veritas1]

Do you think liberal and Democrat are synonymous?
Funny thing- I communicate with people from all over the world and everyone knows what I mean when I say I'm a Liberal except American conservatives of a certain subset. Some American conservatives have allowed themselves to become very confused on the subject.
Here's a tidbit for you- not long ago, in my adult lifetime, there were conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans. And people knew what those terms mean. Nowadays there's lots of people, on both sides of the aisle, who don't know and don't care what simple political terms mean but it doesn't stop them beaking off and proudly displaying their ignorance.

It's quite easy. If you believe in the things you posted then you can't vote for today's Democrat party.

 

[JBG]

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

Liberalism - Wikipedia.

That's my kind of liberalism but it is long gone from the left-of-center population. AntiFa/BLM anarchism is more typical these days.

It's quite easy. If you believe in the things you posted then you can't vote for today's Democrat party.

I am a left-wing Democrat who is going to vote for Trump for that reason.

 

[veritas1]

Oh, more of that "forest management" stupidity. Going into the bush with rakes.
Say, did you know that about 45% of California is federally owned? Wanna guess how many acres that is? How come your Dear Leader is so badly mismanaging the federal forests?

Forest management is critical for preventing these types of fires or limiting their scope. Fanatics like the Sierra Club have prevented the clearing that is necessary and so thousands of dead trees and mountains of dry brush are simply waiting for a spark. As usual, liberals and their idiotic ideas are the cause of the problem. Climate change doesn't have a fricking thing to do with it. Stupid policy is the cause.

 

[Grand Mal]

It's quite easy. If you believe in the things you posted then you can't vote for today's Democrat party.

Well, if you say so.
Tell you one thing, were I American I sure as hell wouldn't vote for either buffoon your wacky-do system has presented to you. Wouldn't have voted last time either.
Tell you another thing, anyone who would vote for the immoral fraudulent con artist you lot elected has no self-respect and no regard for his country or his fellow Americans. But a strange, childlike infatuation with celebrity has led to all kinds of odd electoral choices. Singers, actors, athletes, pro rasslers and now a trash TV character.

 

[veritas1]

Well, if you say so.
Tell you one thing, were I American I sure as hell wouldn't vote for either buffoon your wacky-do system has presented to you. Wouldn't have voted last time either.
Tell you another thing, anyone who would vote for the immoral fraudulent con artist you lot elected has no self-respect and no regard for his country or his fellow Americans. But a strange, childlike infatuation with celebrity has led to all kinds of odd electoral choices. Singers, actors, athletes, pro rasslers and now a trash TV character.

I wonder what you guys would say if Trump wore brownface to look like an Indian. That sort of thing seems taboo from what I hear.

 

[Grand Mal]

Forest management is critical for preventing these types of fires or limiting their scope. Fanatics like the Sierra Club have prevented the clearing that is necessary and so thousands of dead trees and mountains of dry brush are simply waiting for a spark. As usual, liberals and their idiotic ideas are the cause of the problem. Climate change doesn't have a fricking thing to do with it. Stupid policy is the cause.

That's just so much bull****. There has never been what you lot call "forest management". I've lived all my life in one of the most forested areas in the world, I've worked in the bush and I've never seen anything like what you describe. Logging needs to be cleaned up after, yes, and it is but nobody has ever done anything about dead trees and undergrowth in a living forest. Not one the size of the bush country out here in the west. The scope of such a thing is so large you can't imagine what you're talking about. The concept is just a bull**** talking point from the liar in the White House.

 

[Grand Mal]

I wonder what you guys would say if Trump wore brownface to look like an Indian. That sort of thing seems taboo from what I hear.

Stop wondering. We'd shake our heads and mutter just like we did when pics of Trudeau were shown.

 

[jimbo]

Right, the threat of starvation and homelessness has zero coercive power.

There are alternatives. You can look for a job more to your liking. Find a higher paying job. Reduce your dependence on the job by cutting back on expenses. Or employ yourself. To name a few.

 

[Yes_Minister]

That's what socialism is all about. The whole idea behind Socialism (Marxism in general) is that you always have to adjust society to accommodate the needs of the least affluent. Since the least affluent in every society are generally the ones that are least educated and least capable of employment the general method of accommodation is to lower expectations for everyone else. Eventually you get to a point where there are no longer any expectations for anyone EXCEPT those who are opposed to this type of accommodation. At that point everyone who has expectations that the least among us can, of their own volition, improve their lot in life, becomes the enemy of the appeasers.

That is BS. Socialism is about the workers controlling the means of production. There are other forms of socialism out there besides Marxist-Leninist models, like Market Socialism:

Market socialism - Wikipedia

Anarchists are also leftists who do not think the state should control the economy, because they do not believe the state should exist.

There are alternatives. You can look for a job more to your liking. Find a higher paying job. Reduce your dependence on the job by cutting back on expenses. Or employ yourself. To name a few.

I am sure someone making minimum wage can get the resources to start their own business and compete with established players like Bezos or Bill Gates.

 

[Questerr]

There are alternatives. You can look for a job more to your liking. Find a higher paying job. Reduce your dependence on the job by cutting back on expenses. Or employ yourself. To name a few.

And while you are looking for a job, everything is free and there are no expenses to worry about right?

Starting your own business is free?

 

[jimbo]

And while you are looking for a job, everything is free and there are no expenses to worry about right?

Starting your own business is free?

No one said life was free, or easy. America is founded on opportunity and choices. Do what you will with them.

Starting your own business can be. I started mine on $2,000 borrowed money. Today with the internet I could do it for nothing. + the internet business can be operated part time.

You are putting your own barriers to success in place to convince yourself you cannot succeed.