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Signs China is about to Pop

They will not freeze prices.

They won't? How in the world do you know that, given the significant incentive they will have to do so?

If anything, there will be a liquidity injection and/or capital injection to failing banks.

That I do believe will happen. Which would no more mean that their bubble hasnt' burst than it meant that our bubble didn't burst.

You are redefining your position (moving goal posts).

No, my position remains the same. China is massively overleveraged into a bubble asset and much of her current worth is based in lies.

Care to wager whether or not they will freeze prices?

President Xi has been on-station for about 3 months now, and I think it's taken this long for them to really get a good grasp on how much trouble they're in and start to figure out their response - I think the Shanghai free trade zone experiment may be a better indicator of where they try to run. They're going to have to find some way of creating a massive number of new jobs and opportunity to absorb all the people who are about to lose their jobs in construction.
 
They won't? How in the world do you know that, given the significant incentive they will have to do so?

Nope. Price freezes were used in the past to prevent general inflation. The risk in China is a banking crisis, not real estate inflation.

That I do believe will happen. Which would no more mean that their bubble hasnt' burst than it meant that our bubble didn't burst.

No, it means that certain banks are over-leveraged and cannot meet short term obligations. The difference between what congress did and what China can do is with respect to timing and their ability to inject liquidity/capital without the type of political clamoring that is typical in western democracies.

No, my position remains the same. China is massively overleveraged into a bubble asset and much of her current worth is based in lies.

The question is, will it their government let it "pop"?
 
Nope. Price freezes were used in the past to prevent general inflation. The risk in China is a banking crisis, not real estate inflation.

China, everyone says, has a problem with savings. It certainly does - all of its' peoples' "Savings" are in real estate assets on which they owe large sums of money and whose prices are about to fall dramatically. Which is to say, China's problem with savings is that it is about to disappear at the same time that CCP leadership is desperate for people to turn those savings into consumption. Price freezes in this case would be designed to maintain "value" in the home to allow people to borrow against it and spend that money for consumption, rather than losing their savings in revaluations of their property.

And price controls include a history of ceilings and floors. Witness interference in the agricultural industry.

No, it means that certain banks are over-leveraged and cannot meet short term obligations.

Bingo. Because at some point in a ponzi scheme, you always run out of new suckers. However, that rapid growth in debt (bank balance sheets expanded by 50% of GDP for three years in a row) was driving real estate prices higher and higher and higher - as property purchase and development was the primary reason for borrowing.

The difference between what congress did and what China can do is with respect to timing and their ability to inject liquidity/capital without the type of political clamoring that is typical in western democracies.

....sort of. The political clamoring in China is likely to certainly be very different from Tea Party protesters waving signs about the importance of adherence to 18th-century social contracts and picking up their trash behind them as they leave.

But, maybe China will be lucky, and maybe their clamoring will only look like Greece. I doubt it, but if they are fast enough on the ball getting the free trade zones up and running... :shrug: The initial danger is the ant-hills. If you can drain the pressure out of those, utilize the sovereign wealth fund to make middle class investors good on a portion of their losses.... yeah, they may be able to only hit Greece levels of clamoring.

The question is, will it their government let it "pop"?

At some point you reach the inability to sustain a bubble. China has been trying to make it go "pop" since about the beginning of the year, because they want to try to deflate it now before it gets bigger and in a way that they hope to manage.
 
Michael Pettis made the same point about electricity a few months back:


[video]http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000172575[/video]
 
And price controls include a history of ceilings and floors. Witness interference in the agricultural industry.

I am curious, is there a historical example of a country freezing real estate prices to prevent them from falling?

Bingo. Because at some point in a ponzi scheme, you always run out of new suckers. However, that rapid growth in debt (bank balance sheets expanded by 50% of GDP for three years in a row) was driving real estate prices higher and higher and higher - as property purchase and development was the primary reason for borrowing.

By 2022, China's middle class is estimated to make up 45% of the population. Since 2000, the middle class representation of Chinese households has increased from 4% to more than 66% in 2012. The idea the Chinese real estate valuations are based on anything other than growth conversion is laughable.
 
I am curious, is there a historical example of a country freezing real estate prices to prevent them from falling?

:shrug: not that I'm aware of.

By 2022, China's middle class is estimated to make up 45% of the population. Since 2000, the middle class representation of Chinese households has increased from 4% to more than 66% in 2012. The idea the Chinese real estate valuations are based on anything other than growth conversion is laughable.

:lol: Yeah. China can only go up and housing in America always grows at a minimum of 5% a year. Extrapolating Straight Line Data Always Works :D.

China's middle class has been sharply constrained in their ability to allocate their wealth into investment vehicles, and so has poured their life savings into a bubble asset on which they owe huge sums of money. The idea that Chinese real estate valuations aren't a bubble is an idea so laughable that even the Chinese government does not hold it. :lol: The Chinese "middle class" is F----d.
 
China's middle class has been sharply constrained in their ability to allocate their wealth into investment vehicles, and so has poured their life savings into a bubble asset on which they owe huge sums of money.

The difference is, the Chinese real estate market is not highly leveraged as it is in the developed world. Current regulation keeps minimum down payments at 30%, while minimum down payments for second homes (potential for speculation) is 60%. In a country where income growth has increased by 14% since the early 1990's, do you really think 9% year-over-year real estate growth since 2000 is out of line?
 
The difference is, the Chinese real estate market is not highly leveraged as it is in the developed world. Current regulation keeps minimum down payments at 30%, while minimum down payments for second homes (potential for speculation) is 60%. In a country where income growth has increased by 14% since the early 1990's, do you really think 9% year-over-year real estate growth since 2000 is out of line?

.....Non-performing bank loans (%): Bank nonperforming loans to total gross loans (%) | Data | Table

Dude, they bumped up to those numbers in 2011. And why?

…. China's cabinet raised the minimum down payment required on second-home purchases to 60% from 50% to further cool the property market amid wide expectation for further tightening measures to curb still high property prices, a statement posted Wednesday on the government's website said.…

Because even the PRC thinks it has a massive property bubble. Then they started slapping heavy taxes on couples from purchasing more than one home, too… only resulting in people getting divorced in order to continue to speculate.

But even then, it’s not exactly as if everyone is actually paying these downpayments. China has a massive shadow banking industry designed precisely to get around restrictive state regulations, and a Guanxi loan comes with no downpayment, just a promise on the back end. Not coincidentally, shadow bank balance sheets have exploded at about the same time that China began taking steps to try to curb the excesses. It is now twice the size it was in 2010, and valued at approximately 69% of GDP.

So how do you get the money that you loan off the books? Wealth Management Vehicles (Products, Funds, etc). Check out the following:

… One message read: “China Merchants Bank will issue a high interest financing product starting from June 28th to 30th. The product will be 90 days with a 5.5% interest rate. Please call us now.”

A day later came another. “Warm reminder: The interest rate of yesterday’s product has been raised to 6%. (Product duration is 90 days). There is limited access to this product. First come first served.” …

Now, 5.5-6% interest in 90 days tells me that one of two things is occurring, either China is a period of rapid inflation, or this is a ponzi scheme. Because it’s not good investments – they may not even be based on investments. The vast majority do not disclose their holdings, and of those who do, the value of the underlying assets (usually …. property development) are wildly inflated. So, it’s a Ponzi Scheme. That’s not just wild-eyed cpwill saying it, it’s the chairman of the Bank of China saying it. And it’s not just small operations offering these things – it’s some of China’s largest banks, and they are using them to fund debt to some of China’s largest institutions, as well as the regular retail investor. The debt burdens carried by Chinese local governments and SOEs have ballooned, as each local official sought to boost his growth numbers by taking in money from off-book sources to build infrastructure. The China Railway Corp. uses these things to help it roll over a debt of $422 Billion (2.66 trillion yuan). The products are generally short-term and constantly rolling over, meaning that long term projects in China are no longer really funded by anything except a series of short-term debt instruments, making the whole system incredibly vulnerable to liquidity crunches.

Non Performing Bank Loan Rates? Yeah, for official banks following official regulatory guidelines. Maybe. Even the China Banking Regulatory Commission expresses doubt about that. But for the shadowbanking side of the ledger?

legitimate banks are using lightly regulated wealth management products to repackage old loans and prop up risky companies and projects that might not otherwise be able to borrow money…..

They are loaning money to bad creditors in order to keep them paying back the old loans. Well, some of them still are. Because as of now:

… The stock markets in China calmed down last week. But institutions are hinting that cash is still hard to come by.

How hard to come by? Let’s just say it’s not good.

On Friday, Citibank customers in China received this notice: “Due to the system upgrade of People’s Bank of China Bank of China, the domestic RMB transfer via Citibank (China) Online and Citi Mobile from June 28th 2013, 20:00pm to June 30th 2013, 21:00pm will be unavailable.”

“System upgrade”? Last Sunday, customers of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, China’s largest bank, were not able to withdraw cash at its ATMs in cities across China or use its online banking platforms. ICBC ICBC, as the behemoth is known, blamed “system upgrades” for what official media now calls a “massive banking system paralysis.”..

The rash of upgrades and glitches plaguing the Chinese banking system in the past week coincides with the country’s worsening liquidity crisis, which has hit large banks as well as smaller ones…. Domestic media have carried a story that the bank actually issued a letter to potential depositors admitting it had to find “nearly 100 billion RMB” to meet regulatory requirements.

Find? You had to find over $16 billion? That you are admitting to?

Some banks temporarily suspended lending in order to preserve cash, according to Caixin, the Chinese business magazine.

So some of them are trying to be the first ones’ out (or maybe simply can’t pay out anymore) – but there is a boomerang effect. If you don’t lend money to the borrower who owes the bank down the street, when he can’t pay them back, they won’t loan money to the guy who owes you.

So how do you make up for those losses, currently taking place off of official balance sheets?

Other banks are raising cash by offering a new slate of wealth management products. Nearly every major Chinese bank sold a short-term wealth management product that had to be completed by the end of June, according to a telephone survey. China Merchants Bank did not respond to requests for an interview….

Ah.


Their big foreign investors are realizing what is going on. Goldman Sachs figured it out a few months back along with HSBC and a few others. We are reaching the end of this ponzi scheme.
 
I am not trying to argue China does not have a specific set of problems to address. What i am saying is this will not materialize into a full blown banking/financial crisis. At best you have a series of liquidity injections and various guarantees to ensure the appearance of lending is sustained. The growth in shadow banking activities comes with an economy that is developing as quickly as China. As much as it would please you to witness a U.S. style financial crisis in China, it simply will not happen.

We were supposed to wager on whether the real estate market was going to "pop". Do RE prices in China fall by 25% or more before Jan 2014? The winner receives the losers avatar rights for a month. We will use the CREIS index system as the metric.

Agreed?
 
I am not trying to argue China does not have a specific set of problems to address. What i am saying is this will not materialize into a full blown banking/financial crisis. At best you have a series of liquidity injections and various guarantees to ensure the appearance of lending is sustained. The growth in shadow banking activities comes with an economy that is developing as quickly as China. As much as it would please you to witness a U.S. style financial crisis in China, it simply will not happen.

Given the size and spread of this crap, I have to ask what makes you that confident.

I ask because I think this is going to be hugely destabilizing. China has a large populace of college educated workers who are un or under-employed. Add in a large number of construction workers all losing their jobs at the same time that the life savings of the middle class gets' wiped out, and you have a formula for severe civil unrest.... which the CCP will respond to.... badly.

I know I'm asking some intellectual time and effort from you here, but if you could really lay out the reasons why you think I'm overestimating this thing, I would really appreciate it.

We were supposed to wager on whether the real estate market was going to "pop". Do RE prices in China fall by 25% or more before Jan 2014? The winner receives the losers avatar rights for a month. We will use the CREIS index system as the metric.

Agreed?

Urban Property, absent government-imposed price freeze, in real terms (if China inflates by 10% and property drops by 15%, that counts as a 25% drop), with a 1-year timeline from 1 July, and yeah, I'll take that deal. :shrug: It's a bit of a risk because there is a lot that the PRC can do, but... :) what's life without a little risk?
 
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Urban Property, absent government-imposed price freeze, in real terms (if China inflates by 10% and property drops by 15%, that counts as a 25% drop), with a 1-year timeline from 1 July, and yeah, I'll take that deal. :shrug: It's a bit of a risk because there is a lot that the PRC can do, but... :) what's life without a little risk?

If China inflates by 10%? I thought the thread title is "China is about to pop", not "China is going to pop in a year after real estate goes up another 10%".
 
If China inflates by 10%? I thought the thread title is "China is about to pop", not "China is going to pop in a year after real estate goes up another 10%".

Given that inflation is one of the tools that the PRC is likely to reach for, I am simply trying to ensure that we are scoring in real v nominal terms.
 
Given that inflation is one of the tools that the PRC is likely to reach for, I am simply trying to ensure that we are scoring in real v nominal terms.

Price variances are always higher in nominal vs. real terms. I am perplexed as to why you want to make this more difficult than it already is.
 
Price variances are always higher in nominal vs. real terms. I am perplexed as to why you want to make this more difficult than it already is.

Because I think that this is a real option for them. When you are faced with rapid sudden loss of value, and you have a large sovereign wealth fund and control over your printing presses, the temptation to make B/C solve for part of A is going to be large.
 
Because I think that this is a real option for them. When you are faced with rapid sudden loss of value, and you have a large sovereign wealth fund and control over your printing presses, the temptation to make B/C solve for part of A is going to be large.

If liquidity is injected into the banking system, it is not the same as "inflating" prices. There is no way to account for how markets will react within the time frame of a year. However, if prices do rise within the year, and then fall in dramatic fashion due to a "pop", it only helps to achieve the 25% metric.
 
If liquidity is injected into the banking system, it is not the same as "inflating" prices. There is no way to account for how markets will react within the time frame of a year. However, if prices do rise within the year, and then fall in dramatic fashion due to a "pop", it only helps to achieve the 25% metric.

Which is why I'm willing to count in real Yuan. The amount of cash that the PBoC would have to inject into the system in order to keep this snowball rolling is.... large. Like, around 3% of GDP(+) every two to three months.
 
Which is why I'm willing to count in real Yuan. The amount of cash that the PBoC would have to inject into the system in order to keep this snowball rolling is.... large. Like, around 3% of GDP(+) every two to three months.

Come on man, you are speculating based on heroic assumptions. You obviously have no interest in making a wager if it does not allow for wiggle room on your part....
 
Come on man, you are speculating based on heroic assumptions. You obviously have no interest in making a wager if it does not allow for wiggle room on your part....

:shrug: I don't know about heroic, but the size of the crap in China's fiscal system isn't that much of an assumption.
 
Anywho, with the ongoing trainwreck.

China's exports dropped 3.1% in June compared to last year, largely because the PRC is cracking down on false invoicing... which means that a healthy chunk of last year's "sales".... never... actually... happened. Most analysts working off of the (false) data had instead apparently expected a 4% increase. Chinese demand is slowly collapsing, as June’s produce price index slipped another 2.7%, making it the 16th month in a row.

And, in the midst of it all, Chinese authorities have suspended the release of industry-specific data in the monthly Purchasing Managers Index for the manufacturing sector. Huh. Wonder why they would do such a thing?

...Chinese businesses have enjoyed access to easy money for projects like real estate development, infrastructure and factories, but they aren’t actually buying the stuff to build these things. It’s more evidence that companies are borrowing to boost dwindling cash flows, worsening the country’s debt crisis. The problem goes beyond local government debt. The consistent slide of producer prices implies rampant corporate debt, which is perhaps China’s biggest—and most overlooked—economic problem....

ruh-roh.
 
China Lowers Predictions for Year to 7% Growth

...China's finance minister said he expects growth in the world's second-largest economy to come in at 7 percent this year, the official Xinhua news agency said on Friday, which would be below the government's official forecast....

And remember, that's the official line. :)
 
Mr. Doom-and-Gloom, why won't you accept my wager?

Do you need more wiggle room?
 
Dude, I already did. One year time frame, prices in real terms, with the caveat of an exception if the government puts in an artificial price floor. China has to "find" an additional 3% of GDP worth of cash to keep this ponzi scheme going over the next couple of months at a time when capital is starting to pull out.

Why do you think they are suddenly so keen on free trade agreements with the U.S. and turning Shanghai into a free trade zone?
 
If that's too much wiggle for you, we can make it simpler:

China's growth this year will fall below the 7% that they are now testing as their official message. I will put my wager that it shall drop to < 4% in real terms over the next 12 months. That's a pretty basic, big, redline indicator. What say you?
 
Your definition of an economy "popping" is 4% growth? You owe me my time back for reading this thread.
 
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