should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestinians?

[MSgt]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

The difference is DU leaves U238 traces behind that will contanminate an environment for a long beyond the timeframe of the war. And all to achieve a little more kinetic energy and armour pearcing ability, while saving some money.

The complaint may or may not be valid, but it is far from "pathetic".

Well, pathetic or not, armour piercing ability is very important to that troop in the field who wants to take that vehicle out of commission. There was a time when we left land mines on the battle fields long after the war. This too will fade when our technology allows it. We need to remain focused on the basic mission - the destruction of the terrorists that hide within a sea of Islamic Radicals - with all the moral, intellectual and practical rigor we can bring to bear. All other issues, from future nation-building, to alliance consensus, to humanitarian concerns are secondary.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Well, pathetic or not, armour piercing ability is very important to that troop in the field who wants to take that vehicle out of commission. There was a time when we left land mines on the battle fields long after the war. This too will fade when our technology allows it. We need to remain focused on the basic mission - the destruction of the terrorists that hide within a sea of Islamic Radicals - with all the moral, intellectual and practical rigor we can bring to bear. All other issues, from future nation-building, to alliance consensus, to humanitarian concerns are secondary.

Armour piercing is important to the invading force, while the locals are left with U238 in their environment. Again, this is why Isreal doesn't use inside Isreal.

The US military obviously likes the benefits, cause under their mentality, the foreign environment cost of this war isn't their problem. Just give me the best kills/dollar-spent ratio and it is all good.

PS) Keep in mind there wasn't much of a "sea of Islamic Radicals" in Iraq before the US started this war anyway

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Armour piercing is important to the invading force, while the locals are left with U238 in their environment. Again, this is why Isreal doesn't use inside Isreal.

The US military obviously likes the benefits, cause under their mentality, the foreign environment cost of this war isn't their problem. Just give me the best kills/dollar-spent ratio and it is all good.

PS) Keep in mind there wasn't much of a "sea of Islamic Radicals" in Iraq before the US started this war anyway

Yeah, the evil US decided a long time ago that when it's a choice between a significant improvement in armor piercing ability, which will save the lives of SU troops, and a minor environmental disturbance, that they have a responsibility to the troops and their mothers, and not a bit towards teh landscape of the enemy.

After all, we wouldn't be blowing up their landscape if we gave a crap about it.

Naturally occuring uranium is actually fairly common in the soil. It's the cause of radon gas that might accumulate in today's well insulated and practially hermetically sealed homes, for example.

Spent uranium, lacking that 0.5% share of U235, is about 40% less radioactive than natural uranium. While certainly the concentration of U238 is increased where DU is employed, it still doesn't matter much. The WHO reports that more than 99.8% of ingested DU is rejected by the body.

It's an non-issue.

 

[ludahai]

Getting back to the topic at hand.

Since Palestine is not a state, we don't afford them "recognition." That is reserved for states. Did Hamas win the election? Yes. Do we have to like it? No. Do we have to aid them? No.

As far as I am concerned, this gives Israel carte blanche right to build the security barrier along the lines that THEY deem as most advantageous to provided for the security of ALL Israelis. IF Hamas use their newly-gained position in government to go on the offensive against Israel, Israel has EVERY justification to engage in all means necessary to protect themselves, INCLUDING overthrowing their government.

The US and the west have gone along with this nonsense. Though not a state, they function now as the government and as such are one of two governments in the world (the other being China) who are on record as wishing to see the destruction of a state that has been independent for more than fifty years.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

PS) Keep in mind there wasn't much of a "sea of Islamic Radicals" in Iraq before the US started this war anyway

True.. They were dispersed throughout the world. Now we have them concentrated in one place. Makes locating them a lot easier........and killing them.....

 

[MSgt]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Armour piercing is important to the invading force, while the locals are left with U238 in their environment. Again, this is why Isreal doesn't use inside Isreal.

The US military obviously likes the benefits, cause under their mentality, the foreign environment cost of this war isn't their problem. Just give me the best kills/dollar-spent ratio and it is all good.

PS) Keep in mind there wasn't much of a "sea of Islamic Radicals" in Iraq before the US started this war anyway

Only because a Dictator and his Sunni people maintained control. Such is the case in Saudi and Syria too. If only Afghanistan had a selfish and powerful dictator controlling them. The entire civilization is the problem. Saddam was a symptom of this region's failures. There are two options:

1) Place and "support" dictators throughout the region for stability and accept the terrorist by-product as we have done so for decades for oil....

or

2) Remove the dictators and deal with the immediate, inevitable fall out because these people do not know how to exist without being oppressed and controlled.

Either option seems to bring a voice to the "Global Left" as a way to blame America for what Arabs have done to themselves. 9/11 showed us that the past is no longer acceptable. The future (progress) does not involve brutal dictators and oppressive populations who seek terror as a means to change their environments. I might add that all of our allies that chose not to take Saddam down, chose the past.

 

[oldreliable67]

The radiological properties of U238 are science my friend, not orban legend - no matter who you quote. That is the great thing about science, it is the same on this planet as it is anywhere else in the universe. And no matter who tries to say it, or say against it - it doesn't matter.

First, thanks for a considered and informative response. Much more beneficial to have an exchange of opinions with facts instead of invective, belligerence and accusations. Good stuff.

While I'm comfortable with the math, I don't have a clue about the physics (while you clearly do). Nor do I have any experience in the health issues. Consequently, I have to rely on the most authoritative sources that I can locate. Hence, the sources quoted. I perused and am aware of other sources that disagree with the sources that I cited, none of which possessed the credentials of these.

One thing missing from your math is proportions. Perhaps you could revise your equations to indicate relative weights, especially relative to amounts considered harmful. Since we're only concerned with levels above those considered safe and/or naturally occuring, something along the lines of...

e -> u[e]

e + (v*w) -> u[e] + u[v*w]

u[v*w] > 0

u[e] + u[v*w] > u[e]

u[e] + u[v*w] <= u[e'] ??

where
w=harmful proportion, 0<w<1
e' = environment with levels harmful to health

In other words, neither of us knows with 100% certainty, though you may be confident that you do - and your exposition is certainly impressive. As for me, I know that I don't know and consequently have to rely on the opinions of those I consider as more expert than either you or I.

Thanks for a good post.

 

[easyt65]

The Palestenians, like any people, want and deserve their own nation. To blame Bush for Hamas' victory in the Palestenian elections is putting the blame on the wrong guy/group. The blame for this fiasco rests squarely om Yasser Arafat and his Fattah movement!

Arafat and his group ran the Palestenian goverment/people, stealing every dollar of aid handed to them by nations around the world! They were too busy stealing the money for themselves and funding the suicide bombing campaign against Israel. While the people cried for hospitals and schools, Arafat and his buddies drove around in new Mercedes, deaf to the people's cries! Enter Hamas!

Hamas bought the country, bought the votes, bought the election - they spent money improving and building schools and hospitals. A man dying of thirst will take a drink from a child molester or a murderer to quench his thirst! People want to be led, and they will follow anyone in a vacuum/absence of one!

Interesting enough, the Palestenian Goverment that Arafat founded, the goverment THIS goverment is based on, originated from the PLO - the Palestine Liberation Organization...a TERRORIST Organization sworn to eradicate Israel from the face of the earth. The name was later changed to the PLA. Now HAMAS is in control of the Govt - different names, but those in power still have the same agenda, and they are getting the people to follow them by providing all the essentials and infrastructure that Arafat and his fellow Fattah criminals never provided.

What to do? You accept the election results. we are for Democracy, and, for whatever reason, the people have spoken. another leasson of Democracy is the responsibility and sonsequences that follow after voting someone in.

It is well within our right, and the right thing to do IMO, to refuse to give millions of tax payer dollars over to a Nation/goverment whose leaders are terrorists, even if they were Democratically elected. Several countries are joining us in this decision, others are not.

It is still 'wait-and-see' on whether HAMAS will get the necessary support to run the goverment and stay in power. The lines are drawn for the outside countries, and we will actually see which countries are serious about the war on terror with their choice of what road to take. Saudi Arabia has already said they would financially support HAMAS....and then one of their Oil Refineries was attacked and bombed this morning by terrorists! Ironic, isn't it?!

I fully support the Palestenian's right to have their own country and to their right to democratic elections, to vote whoever they choose into power....but we don't have to work with them or give them anything! If they concede the fact that Israel has just as much right to exist as they do, then we can re-evaluate the situation. I would not assist them in ANY way, though, unless they ceased ALL terrorists activities!

 

[MSgt]

The Palestenians, like any people, want and deserve their own nation. To blame Bush for Hamas' victory in the Palestenian elections is putting the blame on the wrong guy/group. The blame for this fiasco rests squarely om Yasser Arafat and his Fattah movement!

Arafat and his group ran the Palestenian goverment/people, stealing every dollar of aid handed to them by nations around the world! They were too busy stealing the money for themselves and funding the suicide bombing campaign against Israel. While the people cried for hospitals and schools, Arafat and his buddies drove around in new Mercedes, deaf to the people's cries! Enter Hamas!

Hamas bought the country, bought the votes, bought the election - they spent money improving and building schools and hospitals. A man dying of thirst will take a drink from a child molester or a murderer to quench his thirst! People want to be led, and they will follow anyone in a vacuum/absence of one!

Interesting enough, the Palestenian Goverment that Arafat founded, the goverment THIS goverment is based on, originated from the PLO - the Palestine Liberation Organization...a TERRORIST Organization sworn to eradicate Israel from the face of the earth. The name was later changed to the PLA. Now HAMAS is in control of the Govt - different names, but those in power still have the same agenda, and they are getting the people to follow them by providing all the essentials and infrastructure that Arafat and his fellow Fattah criminals never provided.

What to do? You accept the election results. we are for Democracy, and, for whatever reason, the people have spoken. another leasson of Democracy is the responsibility and sonsequences that follow after voting someone in.

It is well within our right, and the right thing to do IMO, to refuse to give millions of tax payer dollars over to a Nation/goverment whose leaders are terrorists, even if they were Democratically elected. Several countries are joining us in this decision, others are not.

It is still 'wait-and-see' on whether HAMAS will get the necessary support to run the goverment and stay in power. The lines are drawn for the outside countries, and we will actually see which countries are serious about the war on terror with their choice of what road to take. Saudi Arabia has already said they would financially support HAMAS....and then one of their Oil Refineries was attacked and bombed this morning by terrorists! Ironic, isn't it?!

I fully support the Palestenian's right to have their own country and to their right to democratic elections, to vote whoever they choose into power....but we don't have to work with them or give them anything! If they concede the fact that Israel has just as much right to exist as they do, then we can re-evaluate the situation. I would not assist them in ANY way, though, unless they ceased ALL terrorists activities!

Good post. I've noticed that you are a good student of reality and you back your posts with a comprehensive logic.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Yeah, the evil US decided a long time ago that when it's a choice between a significant improvement in armor piercing ability, which will save the lives of SU troops, and a minor environmental disturbance, that they have a responsibility to the troops and their mothers, and not a bit towards teh landscape of the enemy.

After all, we wouldn't be blowing up their landscape if we gave a crap about it.

Naturally occuring uranium is actually fairly common in the soil. It's the cause of radon gas that might accumulate in today's well insulated and practially hermetically sealed homes, for example.

Spent uranium, lacking that 0.5% share of U235, is about 40% less radioactive than natural uranium. While certainly the concentration of U238 is increased where DU is employed, it still doesn't matter much. The WHO reports that more than 99.8% of ingested DU is rejected by the body.

It's an non-issue.

It is nice that you feel no responsilbity towards the enemy's land. Oh wait, they weren't even an enemy until Saddam stepped into Kuwait and the Saudi's got nervous. Up till then, the US was A-OK with Saddam. Hell, they even supplied him weapons. But if you are going to get hung up on that, you might feel bad about training and arming Osama bin Laden. So who is the enemy? The Iraqis? Most people in the US don't even know who the enemy is - but that is OK cause you just say enemy and group everyone together.

I am sure the innocent Iraq children orphaned by US collateral damage, if they should grow up with cancer because of DU - they'll at least having the comfort of knowing that those shells that made them sick had extra ability to pierce armour. Yeah they'll be happy with that trade off. Oh wait - I forgot you don't care. Good for you, cause if you did, you might not like yourself as much.

I wouldn't refer to DU as "spent" Uranium, but the discard of enrichment required for most non-CANDU reactor designs. It is not less radioactive, it just has a longer half-life, which is good in that the radiation is often alpha, or beta, and not gamma, but bad in that the half-life is longer.

When you are dealing with a quanity of U235|U238 particles at the molecular level, that left over 0.02% (or whatever the exact percentage) is more than enough to cause damage when inside the body where alpha radation can have direct contact to organ tissue. All this, plus the chemical toxicity too.

This is not a non-issue; it is just that those who deploy DU shells want people to believe it is.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

True.. They were dispersed throughout the world. Now we have them concentrated in one place. Makes locating them a lot easier........and killing them.....

Yeah to bad your are making more new terrorists faster then you can kill the origainal ones. Great plan!

This is not a good time to be claiming the Iraq war is an effective means of anything but destabilizing the region and war profittering. In case you have notice, this week we are getting one step closer to civil war in Iraq.

How good of an idea will you think this war was when this is a full out civil war?

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Only because a Dictator and his Sunni people maintained control. Such is the case in Saudi and Syria too. If only Afghanistan had a selfish and powerful dictator controlling them. The entire civilization is the problem. Saddam was a symptom of this region's failures. There are two options:

1) Place and "support" dictators throughout the region for stability and accept the terrorist by-product as we have done so for decades for oil....

or

2) Remove the dictators and deal with the immediate, inevitable fall out because these people do not know how to exist without being oppressed and controlled.

Either option seems to bring a voice to the "Global Left" as a way to blame America for what Arabs have done to themselves. 9/11 showed us that the past is no longer acceptable. The future (progress) does not involve brutal dictators and oppressive populations who seek terror as a means to change their environments. I might add that all of our allies that chose not to take Saddam down, chose the past.

Please, I don't not want to hear ANYTHING about dictators. The US has no problem with dictators!! Half of the beef that these radicals have is that the US supports dictators! If they didn't support them in the first place, a lot of the violence over the last decade probably would not have happened. Maybe 911 would not have happened.

So when I hear someone try and tell me that the reason to do Iraq is to overthrow a dictator, I think - humm, maybe the US should just stop selling F-15s to Saudi Arabia and enforcing them and other dictatorships before trying turn overturn other (non weapons buying) dictators with war.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

It is nice that you feel no responsilbity towards the enemy's land. Oh wait, they weren't even an enemy until Saddam stepped into Kuwait and the Saudi's got nervous. Up till then, the US was A-OK with Saddam. Hell, they even supplied him weapons. But if you are going to get hung up on that, you might feel bad about training and arming Osama bin Laden. So who is the enemy? The Iraqis? Most people in the US don't even know who the enemy is - but that is OK cause you just say enemy and group everyone together.

So the intricacies of real politik are beyond the ability of some. I understand that well. Can you explain why those that can't understand real politik have this urge to comment on it? I mean, gee, when did we provide bin Laden with arms? When a much greater enemy was threatening us with nuclear destruction. Dealing with bin Laden now is a pimple on a rhino's *** compared to what we were facing in the former Soviet Union. Saddam was useful for as long as he kept to Iranians happy. After that, he was a nuisance.

The "enemy" in Iraq are those forces seeking to destabilize a fragile fledgling democratically elected government. Boy wasn't that difficult?

I am sure the innocent Iraq children orphaned by US collateral damage, if they should grow up with cancer because of DU - they'll at least having the comfort of knowing that those shells that made them sick had extra ability to pierce armour. Yeah they'll be happy with that trade off. Oh wait - I forgot you don't care. Good for you, cause if you did, you might not like yourself as much.

If you'd bother to read the evidence on the subject, you'd see that DU isn't harmful.

I wouldn't refer to DU as "spent" Uranium, but the discard of enrichment required for most non-CANDU reactor designs.

I wouldn't either. Slip of the keyboard. Not a big deal.

It is not less radioactive, it just has a longer half-life, which is good in that the radiation is often alpha, or beta, and not gamma, but bad in that the half-life is longer.

In other words, you're ingorant of the relationship between radioactivity level (measured in Curies) and half-life. Go look it up.

When you are dealing with a quanity of U235|U238 particles at the molecular level, that left over 0.02% (or whatever the exact percentage) is more than enough to cause damage when inside the body where alpha radation can have direct contact to organ tissue. All this, plus the chemical toxicity too.

So you haven't figured out the notion of threshhold and tolerance level yet, huh? Did you miss the point where I noted that most homes in America have some amount of natural uranium in it? That below a certain point, the DU contribution presents a statistically insignificant variation from other environmental sources?

This is not a non-issue; it is just that those who deploy DU shells want people to believe it is.

Sure it is. It's war, the purpose of war is to win, and that's the bottom line. Given the benign nature of DU and the consequences to our own men of using inferior weaponry, there's really no choice. Unless you'd like to ride a tank as part of a portable shielding program.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Yeah to bad your are making more new terrorists faster then you can kill the origainal ones. Great plan!

Got any evidence for this? It's upwards of ten years to make a terrorist. All you're seeing is the maturation of the current crop that was born years ago. But we're killing them at a pretty good rate, and we're killing them in the orchard, as it were. Right now the terrorists are blowing up their own people, not ours. What better state of affairs, outside of complete extermination of the terrorists, can we enjoy?

This is not a good time to be claiming the Iraq war is an effective means of anything but destabilizing the region and war profittering. In case you have notice, this week we are getting one step closer to civil war in Iraq.

It's an excellent time to state that that. Hussein harbored terrorists, he was a pig, we were under no obligation to refrain from tearing down his particular dictatorship, and he's out. When rule of law is established over that region, as it will be, eventually, the more significant homes of terrorism, Syria and Iran, will be under that much more pressure to reform. You do realize that that's the reason we took Iraq first, don't you?

How good of an idea will you think this war was when this is a full out civil war?

You mean when towelheads are killing towelheads without our help? It'll be a great thing to watch.

 

[Inuyasha]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Your last two posts have been very informative except for this. !0 years to make a terrorists? I think not. If that were true we'd be fighting a bunch of people in walkers. Do you have some concrete proof on how long it takes to become a terrorist? If what you say is true Walker and Padilla had to start becoming terrorists at age 12. I don't think so. You make excellent points then in one fell swoop you put them all in doubt with a gross exaggeration like this.

Got any evidence for this? It's upwards of ten years to make a terrorist. All you're seeing is the maturation of the current crop that was born years ago. But we're killing them at a pretty good rate, and we're killing them in the orchard, as it were. Right now the terrorists are blowing up their own people, not ours. What better state of affairs, outside of complete extermination of the terrorists, can we enjoy?

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

So the intricacies of real politik are beyond the ability of some. I understand that well. Can you explain why those that can't understand real politik have this urge to comment on it? I mean, gee, when did we provide bin Laden with arms? When a much greater enemy was threatening us with nuclear destruction. Dealing with bin Laden now is a pimple on a rhino's *** compared to what we were facing in the former Soviet Union. Saddam was useful for as long as he kept to Iranians happy. After that, he was a nuisance.

Most people in the US don't seem to even know that bin Laden was armed and brought into a position of power from the US arming of the Mudahadeen - which makes listening to this "they hate us cause were free" crap very pathetic.

The world is less safe now then it was in the 80s. For example (and one small one), the standoff the the Bush administration has built with Iran could potentially spark a lot more than a pimple on a rhino's ***. "Axis of Evil", yeah let's make it a holy war! He personally added that to Frum's speech. Nice one George!

At least there was only one enemy that would have to stand and answer for agression, as oppose to now where there are many. I mean come on, you are arguing against the whole fear marketing message: "Did you forget the lession of September 11th?"

Bush is trying to do a Reagan with Al-Qaeda by calling it the "evil" empiror, or "axis of evil". To bad Al-Qaeda is empowered by religion, and not anti-religion - now that position has the opposite effect.

My point is that the US "fight for freedom" and "democracy" is a bunch of marketing junk (at least for this administration). All the US cares about is making money and maintain military power. Saddam, Saudi, whoever - don't matter who the US supports, as long as it serves its interest.

Well that may not be that bad, but when you killing innocent civilians under the false claim of supporting freedom, I think the least you could do is be honest about what you are doing, and be as responsible as possible to collateral damage. DU, Iraqi reconstruction, bad post-invastion planning, oil based motives, etc. show that neither of these are the case.

The "enemy" in Iraq are those forces seeking to destabilize a fragile fledgling democratically elected government. Boy wasn't that difficult?

Take out the word democracy and the enemy would be the US! The US has destabilzed the region, and it looks like the US will be responbile for creating either a civil war where all hell breaks lose, or a Shia-Islamic style government. Iran would love that. Nice job!

If you'd bother to read the evidence on the subject, you'd see that DU isn't harmful.

I don't have to read the evidence on it, because I understand the biology and physics behind it. You can't claim there is no risk without trying to re-write physics that has been on the books for over 100 years, and over 50 years of biology. Quoting articles doesn't make science go away.

I wouldn't either. Slip of the keyboard. Not a big deal.

If you say so.

In other words, you're ingorant of the relationship between radioactivity level (measured in Curies) and half-life. Go look it up.

A curie is a unit of measure of the rate of radioactive decay. Which again, is inversely proportional to the half-life. How is this ignorant? You are probably more concerned with Rads, which would count absorbion.

I realize this is a subtle difference, but that is the way proper scientic understanding is. It is like thinking pounds are a unit of weight. They are not.

Radioactive quanitity would be measured in the amount of mass of a radioactive isotope you have on hand. That mass represents particle emission potential in the form of future decay. The rate at which that occurs is measured in curies, which is just a math translation from half-life on the source isotope.

So you haven't figured out the notion of threshhold and tolerance level yet, huh? Did you miss the point where I noted that most homes in America have some amount of natural uranium in it? That below a certain point, the DU contribution presents a statistically insignificant variation from other environmental sources?

Yeah, the point at which DU contaimination will be "a statistically insignificant variation from other environmental sources" will be the point at which the DU is particle distributed at the same rate it is in nature (in a given sample domain). So DU contaimination has about as much impact on the environment as the environment? Maybe in an Uranium mine!

Sure it is. It's war, the purpose of war is to win, and that's the bottom line. Given the benign nature of DU and the consequences to our own men of using inferior weaponry, there's really no choice. Unless you'd like to ride a tank as part of a portable shielding program.

Yes, those innocent Iraqis had no choice. The US needed to pierce those tanks cheaper - I mean there was a lot of people to kill and it was costing to much money. I'm sure they will grow up to understand.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Got any evidence for this? It's upwards of ten years to make a terrorist. All you're seeing is the maturation of the current crop that was born years ago. But we're killing them at a pretty good rate, and we're killing them in the orchard, as it were. Right now the terrorists are blowing up their own people, not ours. What better state of affairs, outside of complete extermination of the terrorists, can we enjoy?

Do you have any evidence to the countrary? If you want evidence of growing Islamic to American/west hatred - read a newspaper. Look at the cartoon mess, look at this weeks pre-civil war in Iraq. The field is ripe for radicalization, and al-Qaeda will capitalize on it.

The US misjudges the enemy at almost every turn, and continues to make this mess worse instead of better. Throwing away more and more global political captial at every turn. Making the world more and more unsafe with each sucessive mistake. Ohh 2006 elections, can you please save us from this unchecked administration and their short-sighted and idiotic mistakes?!

It's an excellent time to state that that. Hussein harbored terrorists, he was a pig, we were under no obligation to refrain from tearing down his particular dictatorship, and he's out. When rule of law is established over that region, as it will be, eventually, the more significant homes of terrorism, Syria and Iran, will be under that much more pressure to reform. You do realize that that's the reason we took Iraq first, don't you?

Oh yeah, Hussein was the same pig he was when the US liked him. Too bad he didn't see the US getting so mad about Kuwait. But the US had to support democracy so they came to Kuwait's defence. Oh wait they aren't a democracy. Well they had to support the Saudi's. Oh wait, they are a bruital dictatorship also. Well at least they bought some fighter planes from the US, so they must be the good guys. Oh wait, that is why bin Laden was pissed off at us in the first place. Geez, maybe we should have sold those weapons to someone else - I mean we gotta sell weapons to someone!

"Rule of law"?! Please - the US has little regard for the rule of law - domestic or international. NTP vioations from the US and Israel, while trying to bring Iran to the UNSC for enrichment - which is allowed by the NTP? Come on. Infinite detention centers in Cuba cause that is the only place we can have enough legal abiguity to almost get away with it. Outright prisioner abuse at Abu Grahab, and then we are going to get pissed at the press when US made video hits the wire? Please.

The US has no problem with dictators and no problem with breaking the "rule of law". So don't use them as arguements for removing Saddam.

You mean when towelheads are killing towelheads without our help? It'll be a great thing to watch.

Try and remember that when everything falls apart, or if there should be another attack. The rage of "towelheads" over the situation the US has engineered over there will probably spill back on the US. Just like the Mudahadeen enpowerment did on 9/11. It is a good thing that GOP administrations (Iand their supporters) are usually too short-sighted to see this in advance, and too ignorant and arrogant to see it in retrospect.

 

[ludahai]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Yeah, the point at which DU contaimination will be "a statistically insignificant variation from other environmental sources" will be the point at which the DU is particle distributed at the same rate it is in nature (in a given sample domain). So DU contaimination has about as much impact on the environment as the environment? Maybe in an Uranium mine!

Exposure to uranium and depleted uranium

Under most circumstances, use of DU will make a negligible contribution to the overall natural background levels of uranium in the environment. Probably the greatest potential for DU exposure will follow conflict where DU munitions are used.
A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

Yes it has been quoted already. I don't care what the WHO says, the science behind alpha radiation inside the human body is a matter of scientific fact. But if you want to keep quoting articles, why not quote the whole thing? From the bottom of the page you cited:

Recommendations

* Following conflict, levels of DU contamination in food and drinking water might be detected in affected areas even after a few years. This should be monitored where it is considered there is a reasonable possibility of significant quantities of DU entering the ground water or food chain.
* Where justified and possible, clean-up operations in impact zones should be undertaken if there are substantial numbers of radioactive projectiles remaining and where qualified experts deem contamination levels to be unacceptable. If high concentrations of DU dust or metal fragments are present, then areas may need to be cordoned off until removal can be accomplished. Such impact sites are likely to contain a variety of hazardous materials, in particular unexploded ordnance. Due consideration needs to be given to all hazards, and the potential hazard from DU kept in perspective.
* Small children could receive greater exposure to DU when playing in or near DU impact sites. Their typical hand-to-mouth activity could lead to high DU ingestion from contaminated soil. Necessary preventative measures should be taken.
* Disposal of DU should follow appropriate national or international recommendations.

 

[MSgt]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Please, I don't not want to hear ANYTHING about dictators. The US has no problem with dictators!! Half of the beef that these radicals have is that the US supports dictators! If they didn't support them in the first place, a lot of the violence over the last decade probably would not have happened. Maybe 911 would not have happened.

So when I hear someone try and tell me that the reason to do Iraq is to overthrow a dictator, I think - humm, maybe the US should just stop selling F-15s to Saudi Arabia and enforcing them and other dictatorships before trying turn overturn other (non weapons buying) dictators with war.

Sooooooo......I again ask you ......there are only two choices in our point in history......

1) Place and "support" dictators throughout the region for stability and accept the terrorist by-product as we have done so for decades for oil....

or

2) Remove the dictators and deal with the immediate, inevitable fall out because these people do not know how to exist without being oppressed and controlled.

Either you choose the past or your choose the future. There is no middle ground. We cannot hide from our past. What we can do is look and decide our future. Those that chose to not help America oust Saddam (a dictator we "supported" at one time) chose the past.

 

[MSgt]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Your last two posts have been very informative except for this. !0 years to make a terrorists? I think not. If that were true we'd be fighting a bunch of people in walkers. Do you have some concrete proof on how long it takes to become a terrorist? If what you say is true Walker and Padilla had to start becoming terrorists at age 12. I don't think so. You make excellent points then in one fell swoop you put them all in doubt with a gross exaggeration like this.

I don't know what he is referring to, but he may loosely be referring to the indoctrination.

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna. Their foundation belief is that “Allah is our objective and the Prophet is our leader. Qu’ran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” The vast majority of terrorists are members. They live within a sea of fundamentals full of futureless youth. At age 8, the combatant begins to read and learn the Qu’ran and the place of women. At age 12 he reads the Qu’ran several hours per day as the father indoctrinates him into the faith. At age 18 he has memorized the entire Qu’ran and after age 18 he comes to America and other countries as a member of the Brotherhood.

This is the "general" procedure.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Sooooooo......I again ask you ......there are only two choices in our point in history......

1) Place and "support" dictators throughout the region for stability and accept the terrorist by-product as we have done so for decades for oil....

or

2) Remove the dictators and deal with the immediate, inevitable fall out because these people do not know how to exist without being oppressed and controlled.

Either you choose the past or your choose the future. There is no middle ground. We cannot hide from our past. What we can do is look and decide our future. Those that chose to not help America oust Saddam (a dictator we "supported" at one time) chose the past.

Between option 1 and option 2, I would choose option 1 and a half:

Stop supporting dictatorships for oil, maybe even aid the reform forces in a country. It is hard to accept "democracy" as a valid motivator for war, when the US hasn't even stopped supporting the dictatorships you refer to in point 1.

As for option 2, once the US actually stops supporting dictatorships, they can reasonibly be a leader in democratic reform without doing it at gun point. Democracy by bombs doesn't seem to working in Iraq, just as people said it wouldn't work.

 

[ludahai]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Yes it has been quoted already. I don't care what the WHO says, the science behind alpha radiation inside the human body is a matter of scientific fact. But if you want to keep quoting articles, why not quote the whole thing? From the bottom of the page you cited:

Recommendations

* Following conflict, levels of DU contamination in food and drinking water might be detected in affected areas even after a few years. This should be monitored where it is considered there is a reasonable possibility of significant quantities of DU entering the ground water or food chain.
* Where justified and possible, clean-up operations in impact zones should be undertaken if there are substantial numbers of radioactive projectiles remaining and where qualified experts deem contamination levels to be unacceptable. If high concentrations of DU dust or metal fragments are present, then areas may need to be cordoned off until removal can be accomplished. Such impact sites are likely to contain a variety of hazardous materials, in particular unexploded ordnance. Due consideration needs to be given to all hazards, and the potential hazard from DU kept in perspective.
* Small children could receive greater exposure to DU when playing in or near DU impact sites. Their typical hand-to-mouth activity could lead to high DU ingestion from contaminated soil. Necessary preventative measures should be taken.
* Disposal of DU should follow appropriate national or international recommendations.

And clearly, if those recommendations are followed, the long term impact of using DU in munitions is minimal.

 

[MSgt]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

Between option 1 and option 2, I would choose option 1 and a half:

Stop supporting dictatorships for oil, maybe even aid the reform forces in a country. It is hard to accept "democracy" as a valid motivator for war, when the US hasn't even stopped supporting the dictatorships you refer to in point 1.

Well, we can't do it all at once. If you are watching the news, you can easily see that the Arab elite in every country is being hard pressed.

As for option 2, once the US actually stops supporting dictatorships, they can reasonibly be a leader in democratic reform without doing it at gun point. Democracy by bombs doesn't seem to working in Iraq, just as people said it wouldn't work.

Democracy anywhere in the Middle East is going to be ugly at first. With Iraq, we conducted a stunning battlefield victory in Kuwait (1991) and we ensured that Iraq would not suffer a "power vacuum," but would remain a soveriegn state within its existing borders--even though Iraq was an unnatural, constructed state by Europeans, not an organic one, and the price of its continued existence was the slaughter of Shiites in the south, the continued suffering of Kurds in the north, and the deprivation of the remainder of Iraq's population to suit the vanity of a criminal dictator. Infatuated, as usual, by the mirage of a restored status quo ante bellum, we still face the same enemy we did a decade ago. Another reason for leaving Saddam in place was our fear of offending neighboring Arab monarchs and leaders, who themselves dread deposition. Our reward has been their discreet approval of the worst terrorists in history (no Arab or other Islamic state has made a serious effort to interfere with Osama bin Laden or his confederates; on the contrary, many are quietly gleeful at American suffering, even while professing their "deepest sympathies," and elements within Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have provided funding or other support for anti-American terrorism).

Removing Saddam in 2003, was an act of defiance to "Old Europe" thinking. The dinosaurs of Washington and in our military which is still clinging to the Cold War mentality are dying off.

You are correct. We do need to stop providing life-support to terminally ill governments, and we must be open to new, unprecedented solutions, from plebiscites that alter borders to emergent or re-emergent forms of administration in failed states, whether enlightened corporate imperialism or post-modern tribalism. If the corporation can manage more humanely than the dictator, why not give it a chance? If the tribe can govern more effectively than a thieving, oppressive government, why not let the tribe reclaim its own land? (This may be the order for Iraq's future.)

However, cutting ties to all of the "stability" operations that maintain brutal dictators and the Arab elite around the globe is not a flip of the switch. But how can you object to ousting Saddam, yet wish America to stop "supporting" dictator regimes? There seems to be a conflict.

 

[python416]

Re: should the international comunity Recogniz a governement chosen by the palestini

And clearly, if those recommendations are followed, the long term impact of using DU in munitions is minimal.

Those recommendations aren't being followed, and even if they were, U238 inside the body is still damaging.

I believe there are many things that even doctors say that aren't true. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it will have to be done with facts and scientific explaination, not a quote from some publication prepared for the masses.

Here are two examples:

1) SSRIs (a class of anti-depressent) are prescribed by doctors in the states, and for most of the population to which they are prescribed, they do more harm then good. The WHO probably says this isn't so, but an understanding of neuroscience clearly says that it is.

Throw in a bit of business/economic knowledge, market experience, and political observation, and you know it is just about patents and profit. There are some being helped, but not many. (to be clear, it is not the goal of an SSRI that is the problem, only that the same affect can be achieved with safer treatment that isn't patentable, and therefore not is use)

2) DU munitions are said to not cause additional health risk to people who come into contact with impact sites. But an understanding of basic physics, radioactive decay, alpha particles, genetic chemical structure, etc. shows that is clearly is.

Believe what you want to.