Should Muslims be permitted to enter the United States

[Kelzie]

So what about a person that's half muslim? Or a quarter? Where is the line drawn exactly? I might have a muslim great great great great grandfather. Does that mean I will not be allowed into the US? Or, even worse, if I marry a muslim and have children, will my husband and kids be deported? Sounds like an ugly, slippery slope of segregation to me that is the complete opposite direction of what the US is supposed to stand for.

"Give me your tired"

Well, I mean not actually. God only knows where those tired, squinty eyes mean you're from. Japan? *gasp* China?!?

"your poor,"

Except, umm...poor people have a higher risk of committing crimes. So you can keep em.

"Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore."

Except, you know, if they're muslim. I mean those people don't deserve to live in the US.

Actually, all we really want here is your white, upper middle-class, educated males. Thanks for stopping by though.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I don't believe it's a matter a fairness but rather a matter of self preservation. If you know for a fact that there are muslims that are intent on killing you but can't identify which ones, then you have an obligation to minamize the threat by putting a a ban on any muslim coming into this country. We are at war after all. Maybe if we could come to a peaceful resolution to this conflict then we could reconsider.

We are not at war with Muslims. We are at war with terrorists. There are extremists that hate us, extremists that love us, and there are moderates that really don't feel one way or the other. Our current war has elimated the moderates. If you would wish to decrease the size of those that like us, you've got the right idea. I think this a terrible idea.

 

[Provita]

seems possible, hard but possible.,.. anything is possible.... people for years said humans cant fly, and that birds could only fly... look now.. WE CAN FLY! , we just need a 200 foot wingspan and 2 jet engines :mrgreen:

 

[CanadianGuy]

So what about a person that's half muslim? Or a quarter? Where is the line drawn exactly? I might have a muslim great great great great grandfather. Does that mean I will not be allowed into the US? Or, even worse, if I marry a muslim and have children, will my husband and kids be deported? Sounds like an ugly, slippery slope of segregation to me that is the complete opposite direction of what the US is supposed to stand for.

"Give me your tired"

Well, I mean not actually. God only knows where those tired, squinty eyes mean you're from. Japan? *gasp* China?!?

"your poor,"

Except, umm...poor people have a higher risk of committing crimes. So you can keep em.

"Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore."

Except, you know, if they're muslim. I mean those people don't deserve to live in the US.

Actually, all we really want here is your white, upper middle-class, educated males. Thanks for stopping by though.

Well we never said anything againest oriental peoples what I think we were getting at was not letting them in. But htat would not work if they kept muslims in the country either because of riots and the possible terrorists already inside.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

lol I knew you would say that. I have so many muslim friends they hate america more then just skin deep. It has been taught to them by their parents and it will be hard to make them stop hating even if they are not sure why it will take alot of time.

Why do they hate us? Why do their parents hate us? These are the questions that matter. Not how do we get the muslims out of our country.

 

[CanadianGuy]

seems possible, hard but possible.,.. anything is possible.... people for years said humans cant fly, and that birds could only fly... look now.. WE CAN FLY! , we just need a 200 foot wingspan and 2 jet engines :mrgreen:

that is completely different.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Why do they hate us? Why do their parents hate us? These are the questions that matter. Not how do we get the muslims out of our country.

Because you are mainly christien because you are richer more powerful and yes because you help israel from being destroyed.

also "extremists that love us"? what does that mean if they are extremisits they are gonna hate america and europe as well as Canada.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Because you are mainly christien

I don't buy that.

because you are richer more powerful

Poverty!! Ding Ding Ding Ding!! Intelligent answer! We can fix that.

and yes because you help israel from being destroyed.

Why do they hate Israel?

also "extremists that love us"? what does that mean if they are extremisits they are gonna hate america and europe as well as Canada.

There are two extremes to everything, love vs. hate, hot vs. cold, conservative vs. liberal. There are muslims that like us, muslims that don't feel one way or the other, and muslims that hate us.

 

[CanadianGuy]

but they are not extremists! They are Muslims thats all.

They hate Israel because it is Jewish. They don't like other religions and because America is helping them. It's a circle. Also how can we possibly fix the poverty problem over there without taking out more dictators or something more wars thats what your againest isn't it? Or are you saying the U.S. should destroy all it's nucs and destroy it's economy?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

but they are not extremists! They are Muslims thats all.

If you really think that the standard Muslim loves America, I think you're wrong.

They hate Israel because it is Jewish.

There you go again...

They don't like other religions and because America is helping them. It's a circle. Also how can we possibly fix the poverty problem over there without taking out more dictators or something more wars thats what your againest isn't it? Or are you saying the U.S. should destroy all it's nucs and destroy it's economy?

Do you really think you have to bring a dictator down in order to help it's people?

I think you've got it backwards. Help the people and they will bring the dictator down. It's all about leverage. Play politics and you can work all sorts of angles. What doesn't work? Bombing things, displacing people, putting innocents at risk.

 

[rudy0908]

Also how can we possibly fix the poverty problem over there without taking out more dictators or something more wars thats what your againest isn't it? Or are you saying the U.S. should destroy all it's nucs and destroy it's economy?

We could take out more dictators by stopping our flow of money to their corrupt governments by switching to alternative fuels. Our oil money funds these dictatorships; without our money, they would collapse quickly, giving rise to new, potentially better governments. I'm thinking mostly of the Saudis here, but other countries would do the same.

One problem: These new governments might not be pro-America. Personally, I'd rather have a fair Middle Eastern government that may or may not be anti-America than a poverty-stricken terrorist feeding ground controlled by rich dictators. Terrorism thrives where poverty rules.

 

[CanadianGuy]

I never said that but there is no such thing as a EXTREMIST that loves America possibly a muslim or two.

How do you do that you can not help the people without physically giving it to them and I am sure the dictator would not like that. If you give it to the country it goes to the dictator. Also you saw when the relief trucks came through Iraq they were trampling each other to get it. You can never give enough to everyone especially to such large popultaed countries.

 

[CanadianGuy]

We could take out more dictators by stopping our flow of money to their corrupt governments by switching to alternative fuels. Our oil money funds these dictatorships; without our money, they would collapse quickly, giving rise to new, potentially better governments. I'm thinking mostly of the Saudis here, but other countries would do the same.

One problem: These new governments might not be pro-America. Personally, I'd rather have a fair Middle Eastern government that may or may not be anti-America than a poverty-stricken terrorist feeding ground controlled by rich dictators. Terrorism thrives where poverty rules.

Actually Suadi Arabia is somewhat of a democracy and they probably the only middle eastern country that does not hate america and does not breed terrorists. Also you see the gas prices they are already high with all the Saudi oil. Also Kuwait is a democracy and they give alot of oil to America.

 

[Kelzie]

Actually Suadi Arabia is somewhat of a democracy

:rofl :2rofll: Oh my god that is so funny.

 

[rudy0908]

Actually Suadi Arabia is somewhat of a democracy and they probably the only middle eastern country that does not hate america and does not breed terrorists. Also you see the gas prices they are already high with all the Saudi oil. Also Kuwait is a democracy and they give alot of oil to America.

Information on Saudi Arabia according to the Library of Congress Country Studies (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html)

Government: Absolute monarchy that based legitimacy on fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law. King head of state and head of government; no written constitution or elected legislature. Crown prince deputy prime minister; other royal family members headed important ministries and agencies. Political system highly centralized; judiciary and local officials appointed by king through Ministry of Justice and Ministry of Interior.

Politics: Political parties, labor unions, and professional associations banned. Informal political activity centered around estimated 4,000 princes of Al Faisal branch of Al Saud ruling family. On important policy matters, king sought consensus among senior princes of major Al Saud clans. King also consulted senior ulama (religious scholars) of Al ash Shaykh family and leaders of main tribal families. Western-educated professional and technocratic elite had restricted influence through alliances with various Saudi princes.

Not a democracy, by my definition.

Information on Kuwait according to Library of Congress Country Studies (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html)

Government: 1962 constitution specifies "hereditary amirate" and fixes succession among male "descendants of the late Mubarak Al Sabah." Ruler in 1994 was Jabir al Ahmad al Jabir Al Sabah, who became amir in 1977. Sixty-member (fifty elected, ten appointed) National Assembly created in 1963, suspended from 1976 to 1980 and again in 1986; replaced in 1990 with partially elected National Council. National Assembly reconstituted by October 1992 elections. Opposition and independent candidates-- including some nineteen Islamists--won thirty to thirty-five seats.

Politics: Al Sabah family dominates political events, but several prominent merchant families also powerful. Opposition, independent, and Islamist elements becoming stronger in early 1990s. Political parties illegal

Again, not really a democracy, but a bit closer than Saudi Arabia.

I remember hearing that most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. I'm pretty sure this is correct, but please tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kelzie]

I remember hearing that most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. I'm pretty sure this is correct, but please tell me if I'm wrong.

15 out of the 19 were Saudis I believe.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Actually they started this year. It was around the Iraq elections maybe I'm wrong sorry if I was.

 

[CanadianGuy]

15 out of the 19 were Saudis I believe.

Wow I din't know that I guess my problem was I was 11 when it happened. But I'm pretty sure the Saudi government does not hate America like most other middle eastern nations.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Actually Suadi Arabia is somewhat of a democracy and they probably the only middle eastern country that does not hate america and does not breed terrorists. Also you see the gas prices they are already high with all the Saudi oil. Also Kuwait is a democracy and they give alot of oil to America.

Don't forget about the United Arab Emirates, they are a full democracy and very pro U.S.

 

[rudy0908]

But I'm pretty sure the Saudi government does not hate America like most other middle eastern nations.

This would be because we buy tons of oil from them, grant them special privileges, and don't try to force them to reform their corrupt ways.

 

[rudy0908]

Don't forget about the United Arab Emirates, they are a full democracy and very pro U.S.

Yes, but we don't rely on them for our oil, thus allowing a freer government. According to http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm , we only get 5 barrels per day from the UAE, but 1495 per day from the Saudis and 241 from Kuwait. See any correlation here?

 

[Kelzie]

Wow I din't know that I guess my problem was I was 11 when it happened. But I'm pretty sure the Saudi government does not hate America like most other middle eastern nations.

If you don't know something, you shouldn't present it as a fact. And our governments are buddy-buddy. That's part of the problem.

Don't forget about the United Arab Emirates, they are a full democracy and very pro U.S.

And from the US Department of State:

"The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is a federation of seven emirates established with no democratically elected institutions or political parties. Traditional rule in the emirates generally is patriarchal, with political allegiance defined in terms of loyalty to the tribal leaders, to the leaders of the individual emirates, and to the leaders of the federation. There are no general elections"

What is your definition of a "full democracy"?

 

[LaMidRighter]

We could take out more dictators by stopping our flow of money to their corrupt governments by switching to alternative fuels. Our oil money funds these dictatorships; without our money, they would collapse quickly, giving rise to new, potentially better governments. I'm thinking mostly of the Saudis here, but other countries would do the same.

You're gonna love this; according to the A.P. a study released by Cornell U. and also Berkely have found that it takes more energy to produce these alternative fuels than their usage gives out - it takes 29% more fossil fuel energy to produce ethanol than it puts out, Biodiesel breakdowns - switch grass 45% more, wood - 57% more, and soybeans - 27% more.
this means that switching to the "alternative fuels" would actually increase demand on foreign oil and in fact could drive the price up more. Instead of alternative fuel development, why not drill more on U.S. soil until Hydrogen fuel can be produce efficiently enough to be a viable solution.

One problem: These new governments might not be pro-America. Personally, I'd rather have a fair Middle Eastern government that may or may not be anti-America than a poverty-stricken terrorist feeding ground controlled by rich dictators. Terrorism thrives where poverty rules.

Not true, terrorism flourishes where only a single message is obtainable, which usually happens in dictatorships(frmr Iraq, Syria, Libya, et. al) and theocracies(Afghanistan), it has nothing to do with money except for the fact that money buys the tools to accomplish terrorists actions.

 

[Kelzie]

You're gonna love this; according to the A.P. a study released by Cornell U. and also Berkely have found that it takes more energy to produce these alternative fuels than their usage gives out - it takes 29% more fossil fuel energy to produce ethanol than it puts out, Biodiesel breakdowns - switch grass 45% more, wood - 57% more, and soybeans - 27% more.
this means that switching to the "alternative fuels" would actually increase demand on foreign oil and in fact could drive the price up more. Instead of alternative fuel development, why not drill more on U.S. soil until Hydrogen fuel can be produce efficiently enough to be a viable solution.

I read that too. Upsetting huh? I don't think hydrogen will ever be a viable fuel source for several reasons. One: it takes waayy more hydrogen than oil to say...run a car. The hydrogen tank would take up the majority of the car. However, this is a problem that could be overcome. What probably can never be fixed is that hydrogen is extremely flamable when exposed to oxygen. While we could maybe, maybe, make the fuel tank so reinforced that it wouldn't spring a leak during a crash, just the slightest rip in any of the tubing transporting the hydrogen would mean an instant explosion. Way too risky.

 

[LaMidRighter]

"The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is a federation of seven emirates established with no democratically elected institutions or political parties. Traditional rule in the emirates generally is patriarchal, with political allegiance defined in terms of loyalty to the tribal leaders, to the leaders of the individual emirates, and to the leaders of the federation. There are no general elections"

What is your definition of a "full democracy"?

You're right, it's a free republic w/out a vote, my mistake.