Should College Be Free?

[Boo Radley]

Well of course as an EvilConservative I am contractually obligated to first hate on teacher's unions and tenure, advocating the dissolution of both. Unions, who are nearly always Democrat and support party candidates through mandatory union dues even if the worker is not a Democrat, have become woefully bloated in bureaucracy and red-tape, artificially inflate the total cost (with overhead) of a given worker, and make policy decisions based on politics, not good business in a free-market economy.

Tenure is a blight on the face of academia by protecting unproductive instructors far more then it protects good instructors. The illiteracy rate of high-school graduates evidences the failure of Democrat Union policies in the education field.

However, we all know that teachers unions and tenure aren't going away anytime soon, so those solutions, while perfect remedies, are impractical. There are simply to many people in America who either desire failure or are to stupid to reject Democrat policies wherever they are encountered.

We have to find hot-fixes which can be implemented in the presence of Democrat stupidity.

Fortunantly, I have 2 solutions which can be implimented right away, without the need for any politician to make a policy, no body to vote, no union to protest, no Liberal kook to complain.

1. Leave the system alone. Make no change at all, leave it as it is. As I said before, the existing FAFSA process accounts for the student's fact-dependent situation, income and expenses, and qualifies them for enough Stanford Loans and Pell Grants to cover their education + living expenses. These loans do not become due until 6 months after the student's graduation, and then the payment plan is very reasonable, somewhat negotiable, and forbearance is still an option if a unique situation or emergency arises. Add to this cash-pool all the scholarships a student can be awarded and their every expense is covered. A part time job is gravy. In fact, if the student makes applying for scholarships their part-time job, they can have their loan paid off by the time they graduate. Being a student is very lucrative is don smartly.

2. Work for the first couple years out of high-school and then attend a technical, vocational or community collage; pursue an advanced degree later. This is a valid option for many because not everyone has the will to go straight from high-school to collage. This allows one to enter the work force and begin a career in many fields which do not require formal education at the entry level, such as construction. Typically, a construction worker will go to a 'collage' when they need to learn how to run the business. Everything they need to know about building anything is very much learned hands-on, not in the classroom. Also, jobs such as equipment operators do not ever need to attend collage, as they need only a commercial driver's license and hours practicing operating the equipment. Equipment operators can earn as much as $30PrHr + medical.

So, my answer is for the individual to change how they handle their life, without relying on others to simply give them a hand-out; and that's why the Left will not like my solutions, because there are no votes in it for them.

Well, you did present the evil republican stuff.

However, unions are not big at the university level. In fact, I've worked at four colleges, both universities and community colleges, and there was no union in any of them. So, you might be thinking of k-12.

And tenure has been losing traction for a good many years. None of the places I have worked offer tenure either. The contract is year to year.

I would not leave the system as is, and anyone who believes there is a problem most likely wouldn't accept that as the best option. Forbearence does end the debt, but in fact makes it grow. Students can leave college with a house payment size bill or larger. This is a siginificant debt to pass on to young people. I think you will see something similar in the education debt that we saw with the housing crash. A lot of money will simply go out the window, a complete loss.

Nothing wrong with working for a couple of three years, but that won't really change any of the fundamental problems with financing education. And there is not really enough construction work to handle everyone needing work. That field is limited.

 

[Boo Radley]

I asked that same question with a few suggestions I agreed with. Make no mistake, it's not something you can do off the cuff in a paragraph. A few of the things mentioned were to make textooks available on the internet. I believe we could make entire degree's or at the very least a good portion available over the internet.

I also would end sabbaticals.

A lot of palces are doing that with texbooks, but it is but a drop in the bucket. Hell, I know students who never buy a textbook. There was a story about that being done at Harvard a few years back.

And if you look, a good number of schools charge more for online classes than fact to face classes. I would also mention the failure rate on line is higher than face to face.

 

[Jerry]

Well, you did present the evil republican stuff.

EvilConservative, if you please.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a Rebublicrat or a Demacin.

 

[Boo Radley]

EvilConservative, if you please.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a Rebublicrat or a Demacin.

That's alright, prior to Bush was never either myself. :coffeepap

 

[atrasicarius]

Hell no! It should not be paid for by the government. Doing so would wreck our colleges, which are one of the few things we have left that set us apart from the rest of the world.

We steal away the best and brightest of the world because of our colleges. We can't afford to educate the children of foreigners, so must of them would be turned away.

Government provision would also subject colleges to all the political pressures that are currently at play in k-12. The academic and intellectual freedom enjoyed on college campuses would disappear and we would soon have some barely literate Texans deciding that all college textbooks that mention evolution must spend equal time talking about intelligent design. Lefties would start filing suit against any course on theology and what about programs that instruct people in worthless pseudoscience fields, e.g., alternative medicines.

If you want to make the American collegiate system totally worthless then having the government foot the bill is a great plan. Lefties do not understand what they invite when they ask the government to do for them.

 

[atrasicarius]

Well of course as an EvilConservative I am contractually obligated to first hate on teacher's unions and tenure, advocating the dissolution of both. Unions, who are nearly always Democrat and support party candidates through mandatory union dues even if the worker is not a Democrat, have become woefully bloated in bureaucracy and red-tape, artificially inflate the total cost (with overhead) of a given worker, and make policy decisions based on politics, not good business in a free-market economy.

Tenure is a blight on the face of academia by protecting unproductive instructors far more then it protects good instructors. The illiteracy rate of high-school graduates evidences the failure of Democrat Union policies in the education field.

However, we all know that teachers unions and tenure aren't going away anytime soon, so those solutions, while perfect remedies, are impractical. There are simply to many people in America who either desire failure or are to stupid to reject Democrat policies wherever they are encountered.

We have to find hot-fixes which can be implemented in the presence of Democrat stupidity.

Fortunantly, I have 2 solutions which can be implimented right away, without the need for any politician to make a policy, no body to vote, no union to protest, no Liberal kook to complain.

1. Leave the system alone. Make no change at all, leave it as it is. As I said before, the existing FAFSA process accounts for the student's fact-dependent situation, income and expenses, and qualifies them for enough Stanford Loans and Pell Grants to cover their education + living expenses. These loans do not become due until 6 months after the student's graduation, and then the payment plan is very reasonable, somewhat negotiable, and forbearance is still an option if a unique situation or emergency arises. Add to this cash-pool all the scholarships a student can be awarded and their every expense is covered. A part time job is gravy. In fact, if the student makes applying for scholarships their part-time job, they can have their loan paid off by the time they graduate. Being a student is very lucrative is don smartly.

2. Work for the first couple years out of high-school and then attend a technical, vocational or community collage; pursue an advanced degree later. This is a valid option for many because not everyone has the will to go straight from high-school to collage. This allows one to enter the work force and begin a career in many fields which do not require formal education at the entry level, such as construction. Typically, a construction worker will go to a 'collage' when they need to learn how to run the business. Everything they need to know about building anything is very much learned hands-on, not in the classroom. Also, jobs such as equipment operators do not ever need to attend collage, as they need only a commercial driver's license and hours practicing operating the equipment. Equipment operators can earn as much as $30PrHr + medical.

So, my answer is for the individual to change how they handle their life, without relying on others to simply give them a hand-out; and that's why the Left will not like my solutions, because there are no votes in it for them.

I actually tend to agree with you on teacher's unions and tenure. Unions are to protect workers against getting screwed over by corporations. In a government job, the government should just pay them a fair wage without the need for unions. Unions unbalance things in the other direction, in that case. I've never understood tenure. It's basically just a pass to stop caring about your job.

Fortunately, I still disagree with your other two points, so the balance of the universe is maintained. I don't think you understand how expensive college can be for a lot of people, and those ideal jobs you tell people to get are actually pretty rare. Also, what should people who are interested in a more advanced topic like science or engineering do? We don't want to attend a technical school or work in construction.

 

[1Perry]

A lot of palces are doing that with texbooks, but it is but a drop in the bucket. Hell, I know students who never buy a textbook. There was a story about that being done at Harvard a few years back.

It would be relevant to know what Harvard charges for access in this way as opposed to hardcover books. I noted that this would hardly solve the problem but any one thing alone isn't going to.

And if you look, a good number of schools charge more for online classes than fact to face classes. I would also mention the failure rate on line is higher than face to face.

If they charge higher fee's thats a crock and not something I would be willing to fund.

 

[Boo Radley]

It would be relevant to know what Harvard charges for access in this way as opposed to hardcover books. I noted that this would hardly solve the problem but any one thing alone isn't going to.



If they charge higher fee's thats a crock and not something I would be willing to fund.

I know. We were discussing recently that local CC was leaving off the Community part off their name online, and charging twice the tuition. We voted not to charge more, but many do.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Sorry, who thinks grade or high school is free? I write the county a check every year to pay for it.

I said "get used to the vernacular". I didn't say "people think it's free", I actually said the exact opposite. Try again.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Get used to being corrected when you use misleading language.

The only people who would find that language is "misleading" are people who are easily mislead due to ignorance of the vernacular and who lack of basic critical thinking skills.

 

[1Perry]

I know. We were discussing recently that local CC was leaving off the Community part off their name online, and charging twice the tuition. We voted not to charge more, but many do.

Wow. I'm curious. What was their justification?

 

[Alyssa]

It makes no difference. The government still has the ability to cut off funding to institutes that don't follow what the government wants. If you say you are applying to one of the colleges on their crap list, you don't get the money.

We have a long record of the government doing this.

I doubt that pell grants will be cut for those specific reasons. They are being cut because of economic reasons, however.

 

[1Perry]

I doubt that pell grants will be cut for those specific reasons. They are being cut because of economic reasons, however.

When you don't have the money.........As I noted earlier though, Pakistan is getting plenty.

 

[Jerry]

I actually tend to agree with you on teacher's unions and tenure. Unions are to protect workers against getting screwed over by corporations. In a government job, the government should just pay them a fair wage without the need for unions. Unions unbalance things in the other direction, in that case. I've never understood tenure. It's basically just a pass to stop caring about your job.

Fortunately, I still disagree with your other two points, so the balance of the universe is maintained. I don't think you understand how expensive college can be for a lot of people, and those ideal jobs you tell people to get are actually pretty rare. Also, what should people who are interested in a more advanced topic like science or engineering do? We don't want to attend a technical school or work in construction.

Let's agree that there is no one-size-fits-all answer to every conceivable situation a person may find themselves in.

If you want an advanced degree, there are several ways to fund it. Many valid options available to the student. Those include but are not limited to FAFSA grants and loans, scholarships, and working before and during the program, even if only over the summer brake; or any combination thereof.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

When you don't have the money.........As I noted earlier though, Pakistan is getting plenty.

We just cut $800 million in aid to Pakistan...

 

[1Perry]

We just cut $800 million in aid to Pakistan...

What I read was that we delayed it.

WASHINGTON, D.C. — President Barack Obama has ordered the suspension of $800 million in aid to the Pakistani military, his chief of staff said July 10, as part of what experts say is a tougher line with a critical U.S. partner in the fight against terrorism.

Top aide William Daley described the American relationship with Pakistan as “difficult” and said it must be made “to work over time.” But he added that until “we get through that difficulty, we'll hold back some of the money that the American taxpayers are committed to give” Pakistan, according to AP.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

What I read was that we delayed it.

WASHINGTON, D.C. — President Barack Obama has ordered the suspension of $800 million in aid to the Pakistani military, his chief of staff said July 10, as part of what experts say is a tougher line with a critical U.S. partner in the fight against terrorism.

Top aide William Daley described the American relationship with Pakistan as “difficult” and said it must be made “to work over time.” But he added that until “we get through that difficulty, we'll hold back some of the money that the American taxpayers are committed to give” Pakistan, according to AP.

we suspended it. in other words, they aren't getting much money from us right now as you claimed.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

I haven't read all the posts yet, but I believe taxes should be used to put people through at least their bachelor's degree .. I have heard that this is what other countries are doing.

 

[Alyssa]

I haven't read all the posts yet, but I believe taxes should be used to put people through at least their bachelor's degree .. I have heard that this is what other countries are doing.

In countries with the highest standards of living, the population is highly educated. Go figure.

 

[1Perry]

we suspended it. in other words, they aren't getting much money from us right now as you claimed.

I didn't make any claim as to how much we are giving them. We only suspended a part of it at that. On top of that, it's money we don't have anyway.

 

[Boo Radley]

Wow. I'm curious. What was their justification?

Tech support. I really think it was just an excuse to make more money. I know this is hard to understand, but in some areas like mine, we have record enrollments, but due to state budget cuts we're having to cut staff, increase class size, and cut any corners we can. For some, I think as I have not been privy to their conversations, this seems like an easy way to increase revenue. Pheonix has shown the way on how to make a lot of money giving very little in return.

 

[Boo Radley]

We just cut $800 million in aid to Pakistan...

Not to get into anything abut money being spent in Pakistan or not, this is what budget issues really boil down to, where do we spend the money. All monies the government collects is subject to some review of where it is to be spent. Our representatives answer to us, and there should be some priority in where we spend it. Now there are a lot of differeing opinons on where, but I only suggest this is the real debate.

 

[1Perry]

Tech support. I really think it was just an excuse to make more money. I know this is hard to understand, but in some areas like mine, we have record enrollments, but due to state budget cuts we're having to cut staff, increase class size, and cut any corners we can. For some, I think as I have not been privy to their conversations, this seems like an easy way to increase revenue. Pheonix has shown the way on how to make a lot of money giving very little in return.

No I understand. They are being forced to undergo the very same thing as most businesses. It just seems odd for them because they do not understand the concept.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--The only question is, Who?

Shall the person recieving the direct benefit (ie the Student) pay, or shall government (by threat of force) coerce others into paying?

You should really qualify that by saying "the person receiving direct benefit" pay or the "persons receiving indirect benefit" (via Govt coercing others) - as only in countries where nobody pays taxes (Greece is a great example) if they can help it will there be no secondary benefits of education.

That said - I am now (after 15 years working with students who get free education) against free education. I strongly believe now that people will value their education and classes more if they have to pay for it.

I also understand the old teacher's saying that "education is wasted on the young", particularly University education.

 

[Boo Radley]

You should really qualify that by saying "the person receiving direct benefit" pay or the "persons receiving indirect benefit" (via Govt coercing others) - as only in countries where nobody pays taxes (Greece is a great example) if they can help it will there be no secondary benefits of education.

That said - I am now (after 15 years working with students who get free education) against free education. I strongly believe now that people will value their education and classes more if they have to pay for it.

I also understand the old teacher's saying that "education is wasted on the young", particularly University education.

I think that is more to do with young than money. I have seen students waste their own money, and never bat an eye. Somehow, after they go to work for awhile, mature a little, overall they do a little better.