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Separation of Church and State Part 2

Montalban

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The degree of separation of church and state in the US is different from that in the UK. Both are multi-party democracies. It is clear that it is not 'necessary' to being a democracy to be like the US model, as Britain has a state-sponsored church.
 
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Because of this state-sponsorship of the Anglican Church, there exists a discriminatory law in Britain forbidding Catholics from becoming head of state (i.e. King / Queen).

It would be be better that a government stays out of the business of religion entirely and therefore not discriminate.
 

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Deus Ex Machina said:
Because of this state-sponsorship of the Anglican Church, there exists a discriminatory law in Britain forbidding Catholics from becoming head of state (i.e. King / Queen).
Indeed, it is the only part of the "Test Act" that has not been repealed.
The state-sponsorship of Anglicanism is only in effect in England. In Scotland there's a differenet state-sponsored church, the Presbyterian one. (I don't know the case for Wales or Nth. Ireland.)

Deus Ex Machina said:
It would be be better that a government stays out of the business of religion entirely and therefore not discriminate.
Why? That is I believe the point of this thread. Simply believing it doesn't make it right. As I stated at the beginning of the other thread several democracies have it in their constitution (usually, but not restricted to, the premable) mention of God/Christ/church.*

The degree of 'paranoia' in the USA (I see it as 'paranoia') over this issue is odd considering the US is supposed to be a predominantly Christian nation.



*I was mistaken, on re-reading that on including Fiji, which is currently very un-democratic, but I will replace my inclusion of Fiji with this one from Canada...
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1982.html
 

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The Constitution says nothing about the separation of church and state.

New York and Virginia originally refused to join the union. The Bill of Rights was drafted largely to reassure them that the new federal government would not trample their rights.

Seen in its correct context, it is obvious that when the founding fathers wrote in the 1st Amendment that "no law shall be made respecting the establishment of religion," they were restricting the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from imposing a national religion on the STATES, not authorizing federal courts to tell states that their governors cannot take oaths on bibles or to tell little girls they can't pray quietly in school.

The current interpetation by the courts is exactly opposite the intended meaning. The states were supposed to be able to associate freely with whatever religion they wanted.

The Bill of Rights was never intended to protect anti-Christian bigots from having to tolerate religious free speech.

And if there is any doubt that this Church and State war is about anti-Christianity and not religion in general, consider that the people trying to remove all things Christian from all things public (based on a lie) are the same ones who remained silent when California schools started requiring 5th graders to recite the 7 pillars of Islam and the girls to wear Muslim garb for so many weeks to graduate to the next grade.
 

Montalban

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aquapub said:
And if there is any doubt that this Church and State war is about anti-Christianity and not religion in general, consider that the people trying to remove all things Christian from all things public (based on a lie) are the same ones who remained silent when California schools started requiring 5th graders to recite the 7 pillars of Islam and the girls to wear Muslim garb for so many weeks to graduate to the next grade.
You are correct, it is an assault on Christianity, by stealth. :2wave:
I had a debate with someone on the issue of 'removing the cross from a church'. He didn't care about the pagan symbology within courts - such as the Roman goddess of Justice, etc, but was very cross about the cross!

Also see
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/muslimadvance.aspx
 

26 X World Champs

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aquapub said:
The Constitution says nothing about the separation of church and state.

The current interpetation by the courts is exactly opposite the intended meaning. The states were supposed to be able to associate freely with whatever religion they wanted.
Not even close to the truth! Ever read Article 6, clause 3 of the Constitution?
Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
You know what that means, do you? It means that no one, no State, can impose religion as any sort of anything, period. It's so clear, so straight forward: NO RELIGIOUS TEST
aquapub said:
The Bill of Rights was never intended to protect anti-Christian bigots from having to tolerate religious free speech.
Read it again:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
No law respecting an ESTABLISHMENT of religion. That means that laws cannot be passed allowing for government involvement in any laws about religion, none. It also means that people do have the right to excercise their religious freedom so long as it does not involve the government, federal or state.

You can write all you want about your opinion of these two points, but the Supremes absolutely disagree with you, and sadly for you, and happily for me that means that government can't get involved in religion in any way.
aquapub said:
And if there is any doubt that this Church and State war is about anti-Christianity and not religion in general, consider that the people trying to remove all things Christian from all things public (based on a lie) are the same ones who remained silent when California schools started requiring 5th graders to recite the 7 pillars of Islam and the girls to wear Muslim garb for so many weeks to graduate to the next grade.
Please, please prove to us how California public schools require students to recite the pillars of Islam and the BS dress thing! How can you write such trash and not provide any source for your bellowing?

As far as the Anti-Christian sh*t goes, talk about a sore winner! Christ interferes with my life all the time, and being Jewish I find it incredibly offensive. For you to suggest that there is a conspiracy against Christianity is beyond absurd! And yes, all things Christian SHOULD be removed from all things public, too damn bad.

What's really telling about your hypocrisy is that in the very same paragraph you bitch about how Christian symbols should be allowed and even taught in public, and then you expose your prejudice by making some absurd statement how offended you are by public displays of Islam.
 

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Montalban said:
The degree of separation of church and state in the US is different from that in the UK. Both are multi-party democracies. It is clear that it is not 'necessary' to being a democracy to be like the US model, as Britain has a state-sponsored church.
Britons also have a more homogeneous society than we here in multicultural melting pot America. I doubt that most Britons care whether they have a state-sponsored church or not. In fact, where I live, there are a large number of Anglican-communion Episcopal churches, so perhaps the English transplants must love having this little piece of home away from home close at hand.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
As far as the Anti-Christian sh*t goes, talk about a sore winner! Christ interferes with my life all the time, and being Jewish I find it incredibly offensive. For you to suggest that there is a conspiracy against Christianity is beyond absurd! And yes, all things Christian SHOULD be removed from all things public, too damn bad.

What's really telling about your hypocrisy is that in the very same paragraph you bitch about how Christian symbols should be allowed and even taught in public, and then you expose your prejudice by making some absurd statement how offended you are by public displays of Islam.
A conspiracy against Christianity...?...probably not. However, there does seem to be a consorted effort to be "politically correct" & Christianity is certainly not a part of that political correctness.

As for any hypocrisy...you seem to have a problem with Christianity & it's symbols but not that of any other religion. Most Christians are not offended by these other religions or their symbols but are offended when they're allowed "public" access while Christianity is denied over & over again.

So, yes, there is hypocrisy; but it's not from the Christian community.
 

26 X World Champs

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
A conspiracy against Christianity...?...probably not. However, there does seem to be a consorted effort to be "politically correct" & Christianity is certainly not a part of that political correctness.

As for any hypocrisy...you seem to have a problem with Christianity & it's symbols but not that of any other religion. Most Christians are not offended by these other religions or their symbols but are offended when they're allowed "public" access while Christianity is denied over & over again.

So, yes, there is hypocrisy; but it's not from the Christian community.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am diametrically opposed to ALL religious symbols in public, whatever faith they might be.

I have no problem with Christianity, the religion at all, not one little bit. I respect it, and I admire the ethos involved.

What I do have a problem with are people who think that Christianity is the rule of law, that if you do not adhere to Christian philosophy and principle that one is a Cretan, bound for hell, especially when this point of view is displayed in public.

All religions deserve equal time, in private. Majority opinion or majority rule mean squat when it comes to religious freedom, IMHO. The person who worships Klingons has equal rights to express those views as any other religion. I'm sickened when religious groups try to get things removed from the public domain in the name of their religion, it offends me. Telling others what they can watch or read or listen to is about as repulsive and anti-American as it gets. If someone doesn't want to watch something they can change the channel of turn it off, that is freedom of choice. When they try to turn it off so no one can see it that is an invasion of privacy and against my 1st amendment rights.

So, as I said, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not against Christianity at all, I'm just against people who want to shove their religion down my throat, especially in the name of God. Is that OK with you?
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am diametrically opposed to ALL religious symbols in public, whatever faith they might be.

I have no problem with Christianity, the religion at all, not one little bit. I respect it, and I admire the ethos involved.

What I do have a problem with are people who think that Christianity is the rule of law, that if you do not adhere to Christian philosophy and principle that one is a Cretan, bound for hell, especially when this point of view is displayed in public.

All religions deserve equal time, in private. Majority opinion or majority rule mean squat when it comes to religious freedom, IMHO. The person who worships Klingons has equal rights to express those views as any other religion. I'm sickened when religious groups try to get things removed from the public domain in the name of their religion, it offends me. Telling others what they can watch or read or listen to is about as repulsive and anti-American as it gets. If someone doesn't want to watch something they can change the channel of turn it off, that is freedom of choice. When they try to turn it off so no one can see it that is an invasion of privacy and against my 1st amendment rights.

So, as I said, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not against Christianity at all, I'm just against people who want to shove their religion down my throat, especially in the name of God. Is that OK with you?
For the most part I agree with you. I think most restrictions placed on public airwaves is an attempt to protect kids with bad parents. EXAMPLE: the bonehead kid who burned his house down after watching Beavis & Butthead. Not the show's fault; it was the lack of good parenting. On the other hand, we can't justify censorship under the guise of saving people from themselves.

Remember this: If you confine me to my church or home to express my religious beliefs then my 1st Amendment rights are being violated.

Though you claim not to be against Christianity I see that most of your complaints about religion involve Christianity & that you never expressed displeasure with Islamic symbols or Jewish symbols in public. You never express displeasure with the fact that those Islamic Terrorists consider you an Infidel if you don't believe as they do. They see it as the rule of law as well, but where is your tirade against them?
 

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
For the most part I agree with you. I think most restrictions placed on public airwaves is an attempt to protect kids with bad parents. EXAMPLE: the bonehead kid who burned his house down after watching Beavis & Butthead. Not the show's fault; it was the lack of good parenting. On the other hand, we can't justify censorship under the guise of saving people from themselves.

Remember this: If you confine me to my church or home to express my religious beliefs then my 1st Amendment rights are being violated.
I have no problem at all with anyone expressing their religious beliefs in public, just not with public money on government property. Being in private doesn't mean indoors or out of view of others, it just means that the site and funding comes from private resources, not from taxpayers.
Arthur Fonzarelli said:
Though you claim not to be against Christianity I see that most of your complaints about religion involve Christianity & that you never expressed displeasure with Islamic symbols or Jewish symbols in public. You never express displeasure with the fact that those Islamic Terrorists consider you an Infidel if you don't believe as they do. They see it as the rule of law as well, but where is your tirade against them?
Not true, sorry. I have no love for any religious fanaticism regardless of sect. I also do not relate to our understand Islam virtually at all. I am mostly ignorant when it comes to the Koran, Islam, and its mores. In a nutshell, I know sh*t about it.

What I do know is that here in the USA I am not subjected to Islamic principle and customs on a daily basis the way I am with Christianity. As far as Judaism goes, my family is Jewish but my personal beliefs are mostly agnostic, meaning I believe in a Higher Power, but I do not associate my Higher Power with a story or a set of rules that others want to impose upon me. My relationship with my Higher Power is very personal, between my Higher Power and me. I do not feel the need to share its existence as a means of approval of its existence. Does that make sense?
 

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26 X World Champs said:
What I do know is that here in the USA I am not subjected to Islamic principle and customs on a daily basis the way I am with Christianity. As far as Judaism goes, my family is Jewish but my personal beliefs are mostly agnostic, meaning I believe in a Higher Power, but I do not associate my Higher Power with a story or a set of rules that others want to impose upon me. My relationship with my Higher Power is very personal, between my Higher Power and me. I do not feel the need to share its existence as a means of approval of its existence. Does that make sense?
Yes. Makes perfect sense. I used to consider myself agnostic as well (During my high school & young adult years). I had a friend in high school who got "saved." He was always trying to shove it down all our throats. Many of our friends stop hanging out with him. One day his mother asked me why I was the only one who still came around...my reply was that Mike (my friend) allows me to be me & I allow him to be him & that someday he'd find some balance. The day my heart got pricked by the Lord I called my buddy Mike. Sure glad I had a friend like him.

I too feel my relationship with God is quite private. It's only been the last couple of years that I've talked about it.

--- In general about "separation of church & state" ---

I think the arguments have been blown out of proportion. It is clear that laws concerning a national religion was what our fore fathers were trying to prevent. I just don't see it as an attempt to remove religion completely from the public square. I believe it's a combination of religious beliefs that governed our fore fathers & still govern us today without one being given more favor than another. The problem is...are we talking Christianity, Islam, etc...or are we talking Catholic, Baptist, etc...? Remember this: the first act of the Continental Congress was to import 20,000 copies of the Holy Bible. Seems rather odd for a group of folks who wanted to remove religion from the public square entirely.

I hope you see my point.
 
J

Just Me

I used to be proud to be an American; but lately, we're becoming a fundimentalist country whos laws are becoming more and more dictated by religion....what religion is that? Christianity of course. It's not suprising that there are Americans who are speaking out against Bush's "crusade". What is suprising is that there are so many Americans who want us to be a fundimentalist country. How can we expect Iraq to lose its fundimentalist ways when we are growing them here in America? Doesn't anyone see the irony? What is Bush doing in the white house? Americans truly are ignorant. We're even trying to alter science because it may disprove religlion....I'm disgusted. Even Canada is more openminded and progressive than America now. We're going back in time and that seems to be the will of the ignorant people. If there is some hostility towards those who push their religious ideals in Iraq, that is understood here in America; but when there is hostility towards those who push their religlious ideals here in America....it's not. Why is that?
 

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aquapub said:
The Constitution says nothing about the separation of church and state.

New York and Virginia originally refused to join the union. The Bill of Rights was drafted largely to reassure them that the new federal government would not trample their rights.

Seen in its correct context, it is obvious that when the founding fathers wrote in the 1st Amendment that "no law shall be made respecting the establishment of religion," they were restricting the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from imposing a national religion on the STATES, not authorizing federal courts to tell states that their governors cannot take oaths on bibles or to tell little girls they can't pray quietly in school.

The current interpetation by the courts is exactly opposite the intended meaning. The states were supposed to be able to associate freely with whatever religion they wanted.

The Bill of Rights was never intended to protect anti-Christian bigots from having to tolerate religious free speech.

And if there is any doubt that this Church and State war is about anti-Christianity and not religion in general, consider that the people trying to remove all things Christian from all things public (based on a lie) are the same ones who remained silent when California schools started requiring 5th graders to recite the 7 pillars of Islam and the girls to wear Muslim garb for so many weeks to graduate to the next grade.
Our Constitution and Religion are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our Constitution restricts our government and provides freedoms for it citizens. Religion imposes guidelines and rules for the people that choose to adhere to its teachings. They should not be mixed because they are two very overwhelming institutions. Our Constitution does not specifically state a separation of church and state, but it does imply it. The Bill of Rights, especially our First Amendment, is a means to protect the minority from the majority and therefore it does apply here.

Also, no one is stopping people from praying. The Supreme Court case you are referring to does not restrict people from praying, it restricts prayer being imposed on students. Teachers are not allowed to lead prayer. This is a common misconception by uneducated Christians. Anyone can pray at any time they want, no one can take this right away from any person. Read the ruling yourself before passing on bad information as someone has passed on to you.
 

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geekgrrl said:
Britons also have a more homogeneous society than we here in multicultural melting pot America. I doubt that most Britons care whether they have a state-sponsored church or not. In fact, where I live, there are a large number of Anglican-communion Episcopal churches, so perhaps the English transplants must love having this little piece of home away from home close at hand.
That is false and it is close to being itself racist. Great Britain is even without migrants a multi-natioanl nation consisting of English, and various Celts; Cornish, Welsh, Scots, and Irish.

Further to support this is the fact that it has two state sponsored churches. The Anglican chuch, and for Scotland, the Presbyterian. The Anglican church and the Presbyterain are very different churches.
 

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Just Me said:
I used to be proud to be an American; but lately, we're becoming a fundamentalist country whose laws are becoming more and more dictated by religion....what religion is that?
What was it you were proud of? Obviously not a large body of people who disagree with you wishing to live the way they want to live; i.e. democracy.
Just Me said:
Christianity of course.
So when was American un-Christian?
Just Me said:
It's not surprising that there are Americans who are speaking out against Bush's "crusade".
There mere fact that there are people who disagree to something is meaningless. I can say something is a chair, and find 100 people who agree, then find someone who says it's an elephant. The fact that it's a chair, and we can find someone who is in 'disagreement' therefore does not equate to what you think it does.
Just Me said:
What is surprising is that there are so many Americans who want us to be a fundamentalist country.
Oops, again you're surprised that a number of people don't think like you do.
Just Me said:
How can we expect Iraq to lose its fundamentalist ways when we are growing them here in America?
So the nature of 'fundamentalist' is abhorrent to you? (as you seem to equate Christian fundamentalist and Iraqi (Muslim) fundamentalist as being the same.
Just Me said:
Doesn't anyone see the irony? What is Bush doing in the white house? Americans truly are ignorant. We're even trying to alter science because it may disprove religion....I'm disgusted.
Science is always disproving itself, no need to alter it.
Just Me said:
Even Canada is more open-minded and progressive than America now.
Canada was always more open-minded; where did the slaves run away to?
Just Me said:
We're going back in time and that seems to be the will of the ignorant people.
Oops, again. Anti-democratic
Just Me said:
If there is some hostility towards those who push their religious ideals in Iraq, that is understood here in America; but when there is hostility towards those who push their religious ideals here in America....it's not. Why is that?
Probably because Islamic fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism aren't the same thing. Think "Buddhist fundamentalist"; someone who wants to get back to the peaceful core at the heart of Buddhism.
 

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galenrox said:
Any anger towards christianity is not the fault of the ACLU, or any other group promoting the seperation of church and state, but instead it comes from inside. Outside of the christian community there is a belief that christians are all like the craziest faction of the evangelical church, because 41% of Americans identify themselves of evangelical christians, and the only evangelicals people see are the Jerry Falwells and Bill Frists and the Focus on the Familys, when in fact they are just a representation of the radical, insanely hypocritical faction of the evangelical christian church.
So you're saying it's only a matter of perception
galenrox said:
I ran into an evangelical priest at the Orcas Island airport in Washington. We got to talking about the evangelical church, and then to the perception of evangelicals, and he said something very interesting, when the issue of the anti-gay feelings within the christian faith. "I wrote a book listing every single thing that Jesus said about homosexuality. It's 0 pages long."
It's a silly assumption that the whole of Christian thought is in the Bible. Even the Bible notes this...
John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
galenrox said:
The problem that arises is more normal evangelicals, like myself, aren't nearly as interesting, because what do we do? We're real busy not holding aborted fetuses in front of the capital, bombing abortion clinics because of a pro-life ethos (ironic, right?), and not acting like somehow we're morally superior to everyone else solely because we believe what we believe, and that's just not that interesting.
You mean to tell me you ignore evils when they happen, and you consider this 'normal'?
galenrox said:
And there is a problem with the current attack on the seperation of church and state, and I am disgusted and extremely disappointed with evangelicals who are trying to continue this attack, because last time I checked, evangelism was about showing people the path to the light of God, not forcing them down it at gun point.
So you're proposing that when abortion goes on, we ignore it?
galenrox said:
So if we want people to stop assuming we're all facist nut jobs, we need the normals of us to come out and show that we're not all facist nut jobs, because that's what the people are seeing, and I'd hate us too.
Sure, you can create a 'hip' church that makes people feel good about what ever it is that they do and hope that somehow they ignore this relativst nonsense and realise that the pathway to God is not to make your own way, but to by like Christ; who by the way said to the adulteress "Go, and sin no more" NOT "Hey, girl, whatever"
 

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Just like Falwell. (probably)

galenrox said:
The only reason there's a mistake in perception is because we, or at least I, a non-crazy facist evangelical, don't go explaining that those who want to have our faith become the letter of the law are so embarassed by people like you and Falwell that even now I'm not comfortable identifying myself as an evangelical, solely based on the fact that I might be associated with people like you.
I am not Evangelical. I don't even live in the same country as Falwell (assuming as I will that he's not Australian, or in Australia at the moment), so I'm not going around explaining to Americans to join him. In fact, read my post, I never mentioned him, whoever he is.
galenrox said:
And answer me this, what's sillier, assuming Jesus didn't say something, because there is no proof that he did, or assuming that he did, just completely randomly?
What's sillier than assuming that this is the measure I make for what Jesus did, or didn't say.
I am not an 'evangelical'. I don't believe that all that Jesus said is contained in the Bible. You do. Despite what the Bible says about its own limitations, you ignore this and it if not acutally in the Bible (DESPITE the fact it says of itself it's not all in the Bible), then Jesus didn't say it.
galenrox said:
I don't ignore abortion clinic bombings, there's just not much I can do, considering that I don't run in those circles. I'm a member of several pro-choice organizations, and so I don't think the people who are insane enough to view killing real live BORN human beings as somehow being pro-life would really listen to me too much. And I consider myself a "normal" christian because I don't believe in a church based government, and I accept that there are people with other beliefs that are just as valid. And I don't view "love thy neighbor" as a joke.
So, you believe your 'neighbour' doesn't extend to the 'unborn'?
galenrox said:
As far as abortion goes, why is it your business in the first place?
See above post with regards ignoring sin.
galenrox said:
It's not, but if it really gets under your skin that much, show people, through God's love (thus without calling them names, or showing them gross stuff like aborted fetuses, but appeal to the best in them, not the worst), that abortions are wrong. That's THE ONLY christian way to go about that sort of thing.
And I suppose you believe that if you ignore the deaths of countless unborn people, that's showing God's love, but your guilt can be assuaged because a few dozen people have (in the thousands of years abortions have been undertaken), have been killed.
galenrox said:
I am not proposing a life free of right and wrong. I have very firm beliefs on what I believe is right, and what I believe is wrong, and if I meet someone who is doing something that I believe is wrong, since I lack Jesus's charisma, I personally have to try to appeal to someone's logic in showing them why I think it's wrong.
What logic would you give a madman?
galenrox said:
That's the difference between me and the evangelicals that get media attention,
This might be true, I don't even know who Falwell is.
galenrox said:
I explain why I feel things are wrong, while others just yell at people "IT'S WRONG! STOP!" and couldn't answer why, on a logical basis, for the life of them.
You'd make a good soldier. Someone shoots at you, you get up and try reasoning with them. Logic sometimes suggests that logic need not apply to the situation.
galenrox said:
And keep in mind that if you are going to use Jesus's word as a basis for a legal system, let's not ignore the more liberal politics of Jesus, such as a call to a social welfare system ("Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, what you do to least of you, you'll be doing to me.") or 100% taxes ("Who's face is on the coin?" "Caeser" "Then give to Caeser what belongs to him.") hmmmm?
I agree that Jesus was about justice. I don't ignore this. However going about on web-sites putting down people as idiots, simply because they disagree with you and that there are more of them than you, and you live in a society that takes the considerations of the masses into account, makes you look to be as bigoted as they are; and when you make assumptions about what you think I believe, and argue against that, reinforces this perception.
 

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galenrox said:
First, I'll answer some of your questions. First, I don't consider the unborn people, sorry, difference of opinion, though I am willing to be convinced through science, and so I don't view abortion as a sin.
First: you can't say First twice in making two different points. LOL...sorry, just had to point that out.

Second: If the unborn is not a life then how can a man be convicted of a double homicide for killing his pregnant wife? Obviously I am referring to the Peterson case. I would also say check out the case in Texas; I believe; where a woman convinced her boyfriend to kick her in the stomach to kill her unborn child...he was convicted of murder & sentenced to life in prison...while she got nothing. The termination of these pregnancies could only take place by stopping the natural progression of life; killing it. You cannot kill something that is not alive.
 

Arthur Fonzarelli

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galenrox said:
haha, touche on the saying first twice thing.

And you raise an interesting point on the convincting people of double murder for the killing of pregnant women. There's definately some sort of double standard there.

I've never said that this is a simple issue with simple answers, and I apologize if I've made it seem as such. I think there the issue is a woman being forced to terminate a pregnancy over a woman willingly terminating a pregnancy. It's kind of like the difference between consensual sex and rape. But yeah, that's a good point, and it's really in a gray area.
I think it is rather simple. I just don't see it as a matter of choice. Is a fetus a life or not? Once we can legally answer that question then the law becomes clear. We wouldn't even need "abortion laws." If a fetus is not a life then there can be no convictions of killing an unborn child. If the fetus is a life then all laws concerning murder would apply. I personally believe the latter but would settle for consistency in the law.
 

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galenrox said:
True, but since we don't know for a fact where life begins, it isn't simple.

Also, no offense, but seeing things in absolutes is a sign of ignorance (most of the time). And are you really opposed to tolerance? I mean, are you dead serious? People needed to use tolerance to accept the Fonz, considering he didn't fit into their white bread world.
The point is that legally we have to make a decision upon where life begins. Whether we use science, a popular vote, or allow our legislators hash it out; we need to clarify it for application of the law.

"if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

Tolerance of everything leads to acceptance of things unacceptable.
 

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galenrox said:
First, I'll answer some of your questions. First, I don't consider the unborn people, sorry, difference of opinion, though I am willing to be convinced through science, and so I don't view abortion as a sin.
What, you think they're aliens?
However the Christian church has taught that the unborn are people.
"In the Orthodox Church calendar there are three occasions in which the Church commemorate three important persons in the womb. This happens in the celebration of The Annunciation, in the feast of the conception of the Theotokos (Mary), by Saint Anne, and the celebration of the conception of Saint John the Baptist by Saint Elizabeth”

Schaeffer, F, "Dancing Alone: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion", pp243-4



The significance of Mary's visitation to her cousin, when the unborn St. John the Baptist leapt for joy means that we understand that personality, and life exist before birth.



Isaiah 49.15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, and not have compassion on the son of her womb?"



"How, then is a living being conceived? Is the substance of both body and soul formed together at the same time, or does one of them precede the other? We do indeed maintain that both are conceived, formed and perfected at the same time, as they are born together; nor is there any moment intervening in their conception, which would give prior place to either. Consider the first events in the light of the last. If death is defined as nothing other than the separation of the body and soul, then life, the opposite of death, should be defined as nothing else but the union of body and soul... We acknowledge, therefore, that life begins with conception, because we content that the soul begins with conception." Quoted from Tertullian (208 ), in Schaeffer, p237


galenrox said:
I view it as unfortunate, because a woman getting pregnant should be one of the happiest occasions in a family's life, but unfortunately that's frequently not the case, so it would be intentionally naiive to pretend that it was.
Yes, some children just cause an inconevience. We should kill them.
galenrox said:
And what's the problem with talking to people? Almost everything wrong with the world comes from a lack of understanding! If more people just sat down and talked, and gave an honest effort to understand where everyone was coming from, and was able to put a human, not a statistic or a television image or a photograph, behind every problem, things would be a whole lot better.
Sure, we are doing that now.
galenrox said:
But now I have a couple of questions for you. First, considering that whether or not the unborn are alive is an opinion, not a fact, doesn't it seem a tad arrogant to you to try to base legislation on your opinion, and define what a sin is based on your opinion?
It is the opinion of the 'tradition' of the Christian church. So, yes, by your rationale, it might be 'arrogant'. I don't apologise that I support Christian values. I know this might upset you; if a large number of people share the same ideas.
galenrox said:
Also, considering the discussion is about the American constitution, you being an australian, why should your opinion matter in the first place?
Ah, bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes. My un-American opinion be damned!
This is a 'public' debate forum without prohibition upon persons of other nationalities joining in.
You yourself are engaging me in debate, now. So one would think that you'd like to test opinions with moi.
galenrox said:
Why don't you worry about your own country? I am real sick of people from far worse countries (this doesn't neccisarily extend to Australia, whose political situation I know little about, moreso to like, France or England) than mine consistently criticizing America, and ignoring that their countries are FALLING APART! Sorry, little rant, but yeah, why should I care what you think?
What a red-neck!
It's a short line before you'll be bagging illegal immigrants to your country, next.

My dad's American, please does that count? I so wish to be counted as American, who's opinions are so more valid than anyone else's. Please, please, please. :rofl
 

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
Tolerance of everything leads to acceptance of things unacceptable.
Very true. The British in India could have been said to be intolerant when they imposed their laws. One of these was the banning of a time-honoured tradition called suttee... which was the ritual practice of throwing a widow on her late husband's funeral pyre.

All those who say that they are 'tolereant' of all beliefs, I'm sure are aghast that the Brits would prevent such a thing! :mrgreen:
 

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Lets be clear.In Law,the seperation of church and state is based on a 1940's decision by the Supreme court.Not any statmenets actualy in the Constitution !
The Constitution in actual words only forbids the creation of a state religion ! It also forbids the state to interfere in the free excercise of religion.Thats it,
everything else is the Supreme court. Liberals are so afraid of God and religion at times its almost funny.Maplewood N J is an upper middle class, liberal town.Not satisfied banning the singing of Christmas carols with any religios conotations. This last Christmas it baned any instrumental music that had a religious nature. So jingle bells was in,Handles Messiah was out.All hell broke loose, a town that had wallowed in its self proclaimed, liberalness,and cultural diversity and tolerance. Was the butt of Jokes on late nigh TV.Editorials about sillyness and overkill and put up as 'Intolerant " hypocrits.It was pityful.
 
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