Scientific proof, not just educated guesses.

[ricksfolly]

In order to prove scientific discoveries and functions, they must be demonstrated so that everyone can relate with them, not just other scientists who belong to the exclusive club. Most scientific discoveries of note can be proven this way, but there far too many God-like scientists out there who think their word is enough proof. Far to many educated guessers who don't use the words THEORY, POSSIBILITY, or SUPPOSITION anymore.

ricksfolly

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

In order to prove scientific discoveries and functions, they must be demonstrated so that everyone can relate with them, not just other scientists who belong to the exclusive club. Most scientific discoveries of note can be proven this way, but there far too many God-like scientists out there who think their word is enough proof. Far to many educated guessers who don't use the words THEORY, POSSIBILITY, or SUPPOSITION anymore.

ricksfolly

Care to give some specific examples?

 

[marduc]

So that everyone can relate with them? Does this mean that in order to prove that the earth rotates the sun we must demonstrate this at a level that my mentally retarded brother can relate to? You would be hard pressed to even get him to comprehend what a planet is, or that the earth is one for that matter.

And I used the extreme case of my brother to underscore the point, if there are people not intelligent enough (or educated enough) to understand a concept, this does not negate its validity.

 

[ricksfolly]

Care to give some specific examples?

Outer Space. All they really know is what they can see with telescopes, electronic imagers and the red shift, not nearly enough to realistically declare black holes, expanding universe, big bang.

Earthquakes. All they can see is the effect, and other than technical indicators, poor replacements for human senses, they have no idea what goes on underground, and will probably never know the structure of the whole because only small parts are accessible. ( I worked for Western Geophysical years ago and learned all about seismographs and radar)

ricksfolly

ricksfolly

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Conspiracy section?

 

[ricksfolly]

So that everyone can relate with them? Does this mean that in order to prove that the earth rotates the sun we must demonstrate this

No need to. It's already demonstrated every year and proven with telescopes and calculus.

ricksfolly

 

[tessaesque]

Outer Space. All they really know is what they can see with telescopes, electronic imagers and the red shift, not nearly enough to realistically declare black holes, expanding universe, big bang.

Earthquakes. All they can see is the effect, and other than technical indicators, poor replacements for human senses, they have no idea what goes on underground, and will probably never know the structure of the whole because only small parts are accessible. ( I worked for Western Geophysical years ago and learned all about seismographs and radar)

ricksfolly

ricksfolly

Read up on the Hadron Collider for evidentiary support for universal theories. Also, note that most suppositions regarding space are identified as theories.

As far as earthquakes go, radar and seismographs are a small part of the observational tools scientists use. Those items are good for current activities, but geological studies provide an historical view of earth movements that help us define and understand the processes involved in earthquakes. Also, current investigations into plate expansions on the ocean floors have provided supporting evidence for most earthquake theory.

All it takes is a little research.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

You are so smart

 

[ricksfolly]

Conspiracy section?

Not at all... Just observation and intensive investigation...

ricksfolly

 

[Deuce]

No need to. It's already demonstrated every year and proven with telescopes and calculus.

ricksfolly

But not everyone can relate to that. So what's the cutoff of relatability? You said yourself so that EVERYONE can relate to them.

 

[ricksfolly]

geological studies provide an historical view of earth movements that help us define and understand the processes involved in earthquakes.
Also, current investigations into plate expansions on the ocean floors have provided supporting evidence for most earthquake theory.
All it takes is a little research.

All underground where the structure and process cannot be observed, only speculated. At best, all they can see are parts of tectonic plates by digging, no motion, not the whole, so it's presumptuous to claim they know what they don't know.

Can't really blame present geologists for going along with age old accepted theories, but that's no excuse for not finding out for themselves.

ricksfolly

 

[Manc Skipper]

That argument fails. I can't relate to the exceptionally intense stupidity factor.

 

[ricksfolly]

But not everyone can relate to that. So what's the cutoff of relatability? You said yourself so that EVERYONE can relate to them.

Really, now, all school kids know the earth orbits the sun, it's even in their PSAT tests.

ricksfolly

 

[tessaesque]

All underground where the structure and process cannot be observed, only speculated. At best, all they can see are parts of tectonic plates by digging, no motion, not the whole, so it's presumptuous to claim they know what they don't know.

Can't really blame present geologists for going along with age old accepted theories, but that's no excuse for not finding out for themselves.

ricksfolly

plate tectonics is an entirely new theory, in relation to the history of scientific study and research. Plate movement HAS been observed. Measurements and observations HAVE confirmed motion, induction, subduction, convergence, etc. I don't think you actually understand the research and effort put into the geological understanding of plate tectonics and all correlated events. Like I said, a little research is all it takes.

 

[marduc]

Really, now, all school kids know the earth orbits the sun, it's even in their PSAT tests.

ricksfolly

ohh good grief. You cannot even grasp the point I initially made and that Deuce followed up on and you expect scientific information to be distilled into concepts that you (or anyone) can digest for them to be valid?

Guess it would be a total waste of time to explain that plate movements and continental drift and the expansion of the Atlantic are supported by many things, among them GPS measurements.. which in turn are dependent on satellites that would be woefully inaccurate if they did not account for the difference in the rate that time passes compared to the earth due to their velocity, consistent with the theory of relativity.

But not every person will be able to grok the theory of relativity, so apparently the GPS satellites are wrong and the GPS measurements that support plate movements are wrong, as is all those car navigation systems, and the military's cruise missiles, and targeting systems are completely inaccurate.. all because relativity cannot be explained in a way that every joe schmoe with a few brain cells to rub together can comprehend.

 

[spud_meister]

Really, now, all school kids know the earth orbits the sun, it's even in their PSAT tests.

ricksfolly

They know because that's what they're told, you ask a kid to provide evidence that the earth rotated around the sun.

 

[whysoserious]

Outer Space. All they really know is what they can see with telescopes, electronic imagers and the red shift, not nearly enough to realistically declare black holes, expanding universe, big bang.

Earthquakes. All they can see is the effect, and other than technical indicators, poor replacements for human senses, they have no idea what goes on underground, and will probably never know the structure of the whole because only small parts are accessible. ( I worked for Western Geophysical years ago and learned all about seismographs and radar)

ricksfolly

ricksfolly

Honestly... the problem is that you are not nearly educated enough to understand how they are proving those things. You could at least try to get a layman's understanding of it (which is what I have done) instead of just saying, "There is no way they can prove that!" I bet Galileo thinks this thread is pretty funny.

 

[Deuce]

Really, now, all school kids know the earth orbits the sun, it's even in their PSAT tests.

ricksfolly

Are you suggesting that there isn't a single person in the world who cannot relate to this idea? Not one? What about someone who is mentally disabled?

You did say everyone.

 

[Deuce]

Honestly... the problem is that you are not nearly educated enough to understand how they are proving those things. You could at least try to get a layman's understanding of it (which is what I have done) instead of just saying, "There is no way they can prove that!" I bet Galileo thinks this thread is pretty funny.

Ricksfolly personally is the one who determines what is true or not based on whether or not he can personally relate to it

There's just no room in his head for the possibility that something can be proven despite his not understanding it.

Personally, I can relate to the theory of relativity, the idea that space itself is curved and expanding. I can also understand the basic level of evidence that proves this, although not the math behind it.

But if Ricksfolly can't, it must not be true.

 

[lpast]

I think if everyone in this thread wanted to be honest, they would readily admit there has been scientists caught plaguarizing and lieing and fabricating and stealing others thoughts forever.
Theres an undisputable point which is appropriate for this thread...Extent of education, IQ, has no correlation to integrity, decency, normalcy or criminality, scientists are no different than anyone else.
Medical Drs commit crimes and lie...lawyers, academics, Professors...and so do scientists...so to blindly believe whatever they tell you, well lets just say I wont do it.

 

[spud_meister]

I think if everyone in this thread wanted to be honest, they would readily admit there has been scientists caught plaguarizing and lieing and fabricating and stealing others thoughts forever.
Theres an undisputable point which is appropriate for this thread...Extent of education, IQ, has no correlation to integrity, decency, normalcy or criminality, scientists are no different than anyone else.
Medical Drs commit crimes and lie...lawyers, academics, Professors...and so do scientists...so to blindly believe whatever they tell you, well lets just say I wont do it.

What's your point? Are you saying the entire medical profession should be doubted if one doctor is caught lying?

 

[CriticalThought]

In order to prove scientific discoveries and functions, they must be demonstrated so that everyone can relate with them, not just other scientists who belong to the exclusive club. Most scientific discoveries of note can be proven this way, but there far too many God-like scientists out there who think their word is enough proof. Far to many educated guessers who don't use the words THEORY, POSSIBILITY, or SUPPOSITION anymore.

ricksfolly

Science is the method of infinite regress. You can't truly ever prove anything, you can only falsify. The harder it is to falsify a testable proposition, the higher the probability it is true.

It is the media that generally purports certainty when in the scientific community the attitude is generally a desire to be proven wrong so that something new can be learned. Einstein would have had an orgasm had someone falsified his theory of relativity in his lifetime because then he would have had the opportunity to learn something entirely new and look at the universe in an entirely different way.

However, I agree to a certain extent. I don't believe the current evidence allows us to claim that mental illnesses like PTSD and ADHD actually exist as physical diseases of the brain but the psychiatric community has been granted enormous police power to enforce that notion.

 

[Deuce]

I think if everyone in this thread wanted to be honest, they would readily admit there has been scientists caught plaguarizing and lieing and fabricating and stealing others thoughts forever.
Theres an undisputable point which is appropriate for this thread...Extent of education, IQ, has no correlation to integrity, decency, normalcy or criminality, scientists are no different than anyone else.
Medical Drs commit crimes and lie...lawyers, academics, Professors...and so do scientists...so to blindly believe whatever they tell you, well lets just say I wont do it.

But that isn't the point the OP is trying to make. He's saying if the general public can't understand something then it must be an "educated guess." Worse, it has to be something everyone can understand. It's an absurd point and that's what people are responding to. You're extrapolating an argument that isn't being made.

 

[CriticalThought]

What's your point? Are you saying the entire medical profession should be doubted if one doctor is caught lying?

The entire medical profession should be doubted because it is a profession. Whenever money, prestige, or power is on the line, you can be assured that humans will act in their own self interest. There is a reason that doctors and pharmaceutical companies are so close and chummy and why they always giving you those fancy pens with the name of a drug company on them.

 

[Deuce]

The entire medical profession should be doubted because it is a profession. Whenever money, prestige, or power is on the line, you can be assured that humans will act in their own self interest. There is a reason that doctors and pharmaceutical companies are so close and chummy and why they always giving you those fancy pens with the name of a drug company on them.

It's also why we have double-blind studies and strict regulations on what those companies can and cannot say about their products.