Schools, how to make them better.

[The Mark]

So, Finland has the best schools in the world in many categories.

Part of their method to get there was banning private schools.
They don't test children until high school.
They have small class sizes (20?) and I think 3 teachers per class.

Should we do this in the USA?

If not, why?



Edit: To clarify my argument, allowing private schools clearly results in public schools being underfunded and understaffed, thus children getting poor educations.

I find that result unacceptable, and it seems that in Finland, banning private schools addressed it by only giving the public school option.

This means that they have to get sufficient funding so that everyone gets good education, or the children of parents who currently send their kids to private school (because of course they would, since the public schools have so many problems) won't get the education their children deserve.

It puts all the people behind making the schools very good, and all children benefit as a result.

The downside is only that thousands of private schools will have to be ended, or made public.


That seems a decent trade.

 

[ecofarm]

So, Finland has the best schools in the world in many categories.

Part of their method to get there was banning private schools.
They don't test children until high school.
They have small class sizes (20?) and I think 3 teachers per class.

Should we do this in the USA?

If not, why?

Finland's population is 5m. A single US city.

 

[The Mark]

Finland's population is 5m. A single US city.

How does that make their method unacceptable?

The results are clearly positive.

 

[ecofarm]

So, Finland has the best schools in the world in many categories.

Part of their method to get there was banning private schools.
They don't test children until high school.
They have small class sizes (20?) and I think 3 teachers per class.

Should we do this in the USA?

If not, why?



Edit: To clarify my argument, allowing private schools clearly results in public schools being underfunded and understaffed, thus children getting poor educations.

I find that result unacceptable, and it seems that in Finland, banning private schools addressed it by only giving the public school option.

This means that they have to get sufficient funding so that everyone gets good education, or the children of parents who currently send their kids to private school (because of course they would, since the public schools have so many problems) won't get the education their children deserve.

It puts all the people behind making the schools very good, and all children benefit as a result.

The downside is only that thousands of private schools will have to be ended, or made public.


That seems a decent trade.

Objection number 2: Finland is a culturally homogeneous population.

 

[The Mark]

Objection number 2: Finland is a culturally homogeneous population.

So we provide teachers and staff who can deal with children from multiple backgrounds.

 

[ecofarm]

How does that make their method unacceptable?

The results are clearly positive.

Scaling up any endeavor is wrought with peril. Scaling up government projects is almost always disaster.

Socialism works well when one's appropriation authority lives next door and feels the same about everything.

 

[ecofarm]

So we provide teachers and staff who can deal with children from multiple backgrounds.

It's the goals and expectations that present a problem. When those are the same for everyone, socialism works well.

Diversity in teaching methods and considerations provides a more robust experience for all students. Diversity in the classroom is good.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Private schools are the least of our problems when it comes to our education system... now, dealing with dumbing down the curriculum and the over use of standardized testing is another matter.

 

[The Mark]

It's the goals and expectations that present a problem. When those are the same for everyone, socialism works well.

Diversity in teaching methods and considerations provides a more robust experience for all students. Diversity in the classroom is good.

Not all the public schools have to be the same, it could vary by state and locality to a degree, depending on state and local funding, just as now

But a minimum standard could be reached, and the lack of funding/staff addressed by removing some of the other places that funding and staff go, which is mainly private schools.

 

[The Mark]

Private schools are the least of our problems when it comes to our education system... now, dealing with dumbing down the curriculum and the over use of standardized testing is another matter.

Charter schools, at least, are a big issue with our education system.
They draw money and staff from public schools, and can pick the students they want.

 

[Bullseye]

So, Finland has the best schools in the world in many categories.

Part of their method to get there was banning private schools.
They don't test children until high school.
They have small class sizes (20?) and I think 3 teachers per class.

Should we do this in the USA?

If not, why?



Edit: To clarify my argument, allowing private schools clearly results in public schools being underfunded and understaffed, thus children getting poor educations.

I find that result unacceptable, and it seems that in Finland, banning private schools addressed it by only giving the public school option.

This means that they have to get sufficient funding so that everyone gets good education, or the children of parents who currently send their kids to private school (because of course they would, since the public schools have so many problems) won't get the education their children deserve.

It puts all the people behind making the schools very good, and all children benefit as a result.

The downside is only that thousands of private schools will have to be ended, or made public.


That seems a decent trade.

Many private schools were created BECAUSE of the failure of public schools to do their job. We've pumped huge amounts of money into public schools - some of the highest funded districts are also the worst performing which casts a lot of doubt on the "more money, more money" approach to improving results.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Charter schools, at least, are a big issue with our education system.
They draw money and staff from public schools, and can pick the students they want.

But we do not have evidence that they are as a whole forcing educational quality downward. Granted there are a few that probably do but the reality is our bigger issues are how we are dealing with public education curriculum and how often we rely on standardized testing. By no measure have all these influences into public education increased our ranking among comparable nations, we need to be looking at all these things before passing the blame onto private institutions.

 

[ecofarm]

Not all the public schools have to be the same, it could vary by state and locality to a degree, depending on state and local funding, just as now

But a minimum standard could be reached, and the lack of funding/staff addressed by removing some of the other places that funding and staff go, which is mainly private schools.

It comes down to homogeneity of goals, expectations and curriculum. That's easy for an isolated population of merely 5m. They could agree on everything; hell, they're practically all cousins. It's not the same when people are vastly different in wealth, expectations, goals and desired curriculum. It's not the same when the person deciding lives a world away geographically, culturally and economically.

Socialism works well in small homogeneous populations. Beyond that, diversity saves the day.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Other - education in the US is mainly state and locally funded thus an experiment of this nature should be tried at that level. The Finland (experimental?) idea allegedly "worked" on a small population which lacks "diversity".

No - this is yet another attempt to completely federalize another huge sector of the economy.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Finland/United-States/Education

 

[Cephus]

You couldn't do it if you wanted to. Pointless question.

 

[The Mark]

Many private schools were created BECAUSE of the failure of public schools to do their job. We've pumped huge amounts of money into public schools - some of the highest funded districts are also the worst performing which casts a lot of doubt on the "more money, more money" approach to improving results.

It's never one issue, but often underfunding is part of the problem.

Certainly there are cases where it may not be.

 

[The Mark]

But we do not have evidence that they are as a whole forcing educational quality downward. Granted there are a few that probably do but the reality is our bigger issues are how we are dealing with public education curriculum and how often we rely on standardized testing. By no measure have all these influences into public education increased our ranking among comparable nations, we need to be looking at all these things before passing the blame onto private institutions.

It's certainly not just private institutions that are the issue.

But I think by requiring all schools to be public, it would focus the energies of everyone on ensuring the standards of all schools improve, rather than those with the means sending their kids to schools they can which others do not have access too.

 

[The Mark]

It comes down to homogeneity of goals, expectations and curriculum. That's easy for an isolated population of merely 5m. They could agree on everything; hell, they're practically all cousins. It's not the same when people are vastly different in wealth, expectations, goals and desired curriculum. It's not the same when the person deciding lives a world away geographically, culturally and economically.

Socialism works well in small homogeneous populations. Beyond that, diversity saves the day.

Oh I don't think it'll happen any time soon, perhaps never.

But it seems to me that requiring all k-12 schools be public would solve some issues I see with the school systems.

 

[ecofarm]

Oh I don't think it'll happen any time soon, perhaps never.

But it seems to me that requiring all k-12 schools be public would solve some issues I see with the school systems.

On a small, tiny, scale with a homogeneous population, perhaps. There's long term risk in the lack of diversity, even for such a population.

 

[Bullseye]

It's never one issue, but often underfunding is part of the problem.

Certainly there are cases where it may not be.

But that's been the mantra of Big Ed for decades - it's never enough. It's always "give us more bucks and we'll create more geniuses" And some people actually believed them.

 

[The Mark]

But that's been the mantra of Big Ed for decades - it's never enough. It's always "give us more bucks and we'll create more geniuses" And some people actually believed them.

That's because it's true, generally.

There are lots of underfunded and thus understaffed schools out there.

 

[Bullseye]

That's because it's true, generally.

There are lots of underfunded and thus understaffed schools out there.

Actually, that promise has never been kept.

 

[The Mark]

Actually, that promise has never been kept.

Are you claiming that never has a school which asked for more money improved when it got that money?

 

[Cephus]

Are you claiming that never has a school which asked for more money improved when it got that money?

You can look at schools in California, for example, where all schools get funded equally regardless of where they are, and the inner city schools are every bit the cesspool today as they were before they got the additional funding. So no, it isn't really the money, it's the management.

 

[The Mark]

You can look at schools in California, for example, where all schools get funded equally regardless of where they are, and the inner city schools are every bit the cesspool today as they were before they got the additional funding. So no, it isn't really the money, it's the management.

I think it's a bit of both, but definitely the management can be an issue.

I'm not sure how to address that, except perhaps standardized testing for school managers.


*evil chuckle*