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Same Sex Marriage

MinRogerCooper

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Why does it seem that people, especially the Church at large, want to make it as though Marriage is all about religion? Marriage in this country is a civil institution that can be given religious connotations, but is overall a legal institution. I personally believe that marriage is a civil right and shouldn't be denied anyone, and when granted it shouldn't be ridiculed and judged by people who are SUPPOSED to love everyone. So I am asking what are you guys' opinions regarding same sex marriage and the Constitutionality of denying/ or granting marriages between people of the same sex.

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lpast

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The fight is over. Gays are learning that winning the fight Legally doesnt change minds thats a whole different issue.

The best example is, Abortion has been legal longer than most of you have been alive 43 yrs and still year after year its a battle and a political issue, with new laws being written and court battles. What makes anyone think that gay marriage and gender neutral bathrooms will be any different. People are going to believe what they want. Some change, Ive changed my thinking somewhat but the battle will rage on
 

MinRogerCooper

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I've always been of the same opinion, you can't legislate social change, but I'm just curious how anyone can justify denying a Constitutional right.

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TheGoverness

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Why does it seem that people, especially the Church at large, want to make it as though Marriage is all about religion? Marriage in this country is a civil institution that can be given religious connotations, but is overall a legal institution. I personally believe that marriage is a civil right and shouldn't be denied anyone, and when granted it shouldn't be ridiculed and judged by people who are SUPPOSED to love everyone. So I am asking what are you guys' opinions regarding same sex marriage and the Constitutionality of denying/ or granting marriages between people of the same sex.

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I also believe marriage is a civil right. And honestly I can't find one valid reason to deny gay people the right to marriage.
 

MinRogerCooper

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Exactly. I say the same thing, and I am a very religious and spiritual person, so I feel like if I can see the logic why can't anyone else.

~Roger T. Cooper~
 

TheGoverness

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Exactly. I say the same thing, and I am a very religious and spiritual person, so I feel like if I can see the logic why can't anyone else.

~Roger T. Cooper~
Well, some people let their religious beliefs cloud their ability to see reason. My parents are a good example of this. They're very smart, successful people, but many times their religious beliefs cloud their ability to think rationally.
 

MinRogerCooper

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That is true, and I try my hardest not to do that. I think that religious freedom doesn't just mean any religion, but it also means people are free to practice if they want how they want. Besides, if nothing else is true, the separation of church and state makes it illegal for the church to influence or regulate civil and legal policies. And marriage is a civil institution first, which means it is beyond the authority of the Church to declare Same Sex marriage legal. Although I also believe churches and business owners shouldn't be forced to do anything as private organizations.

~Roger T. Cooper~
 

TheGoverness

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That is true, and I try my hardest not to do that. I think that religious freedom doesn't just mean any religion, but it also means people are free to practice if they want how they want. Besides, if nothing else is true, the separation of church and state makes it illegal for the church to influence or regulate civil and legal policies. And marriage is a civil institution first, which means it is beyond the authority of the Church to declare Same Sex marriage legal. Although I also believe churches and business owners shouldn't be forced to do anything as private organizations.

~Roger T. Cooper~

Well the sad thing is a lot of people actually think that the separation between Church and State doesn't exist.

And no, I don't think Churches should be forced to do marry same-sex couples either; it's up to them if they want to do that or not. Plus, I don't know who'd want to get married in a church were everyone there has disdain for them.
 

MinRogerCooper

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Well the sad thing is a lot of people actually think that the separation between Church and State doesn't exist.

And no, I don't think Churches should be forced to do marry same-sex couples either; it's up to them if they want to do that or not. Plus, I don't know who'd want to get married in a church were everyone there has disdain for them.
I don't think I would wanna get married at a church with that attitude either. So makes sense.

~Roger T. Cooper~
 

Henrin

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Government marriage is a contractual issue. Marriage itself is a matter of association that people have the right to form on their own choosing. Gay people were not denied the ability to marry, but were denied the ability for their relationship of their choosing to be party to the government marriage contract.
 

TheGoverness

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I don't think I would wanna get married at a church with that attitude either. So makes sense.

~Roger T. Cooper~
Yeah. If my girlfriend and I ever end up getting married, the last place I want to go is a place were most of everyone is giving us the stink eye.
 

MinRogerCooper

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Government marriage is a contractual issue. Marriage itself is a matter of association that people have the right to form on their own choosing. Gay people were not denied the ability to marry, but were denied the ability for their relationship of their choosing to be party to the government marriage contract.
That's simply a technical way to say they were denied marrying someone of the same sex... So.....

~Roger T. Cooper~
 

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Yeah. If my girlfriend and I ever end up getting married, the last place I want to go is a place were most of everyone is giving us the stink eye.

That doesn't say much for your so-called friends . Get married who cares what others think .
 

TheGoverness

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That doesn't say much for your so-called friends . Get married who cares what others think .
Well I mean I'm not planning on getting married anytime soon. Hell, I may not even want to get married.
 

Henrin

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That's simply a technical way to say they were denied marrying someone of the same sex... So.....

~Roger T. Cooper~

But they weren't denied the ability to marry each other. They were denied the government marriage contract that provides benefits to the marriage itself. If they wanted to they could have found someone willing to marry them and have a private contract of their choosing be drawn up.
 

TheGoverness

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But they weren't denied the ability to marry each other. They were denied the government marriage contract that provides benefits to the marriage itself. If they wanted to they could have found someone willing to marry them and have a private contract of their choosing be drawn up.

Yes they were denied the ability to marry each other, legally speaking.
 

Thoreau72

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I've always been of the same opinion, you can't legislate social change, but I'm just curious how anyone can justify denying a Constitutional right.

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The most common way that a person denies a constitutional right is by convincing himself, rationalizing, that it is NOT a right.
 

jaeger19

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There is no constitutional right per se to have the government recognize your marriage contract.

However, there is a constitutional right to equal protection under the law.. and that's what gay marriage falls under.

The government has seen fit to give certain protections to people who are married, such as property rights, tax law, legal protections about testifying, the ability to make decisions if one spouse is incapacitated etc, .

therefore it must extend these protections to all consenting adults who would marry.. including gay people.
 

roguenuke

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The fight is over. Gays are learning that winning the fight Legally doesnt change minds thats a whole different issue.

The best example is, Abortion has been legal longer than most of you have been alive 43 yrs and still year after year its a battle and a political issue, with new laws being written and court battles. What makes anyone think that gay marriage and gender neutral bathrooms will be any different. People are going to believe what they want. Some change, Ive changed my thinking somewhat but the battle will rage on

That example is flawed because abortion is not similar to marriage, especially when we look at past political issues, what best compares, and the trends within those issues. Guess which one trends pretty much identical with same sex marriage? Hint, it isn't abortion.
 

Southern Dad

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I see no reason that same sex marriage or polygamy should be illegal. Let every marry whomever and however many they wish.
 

chromium

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The fight is over. Gays are learning that winning the fight Legally doesnt change minds thats a whole different issue.

The best example is, Abortion has been legal longer than most of you have been alive 43 yrs and still year after year its a battle and a political issue, with new laws being written and court battles. What makes anyone think that gay marriage and gender neutral bathrooms will be any different. People are going to believe what they want. Some change, Ive changed my thinking somewhat but the battle will rage on

um, minds have changed so swiftly and dramatically when it comes to gay marriage that it's already becoming not a political issue. Hell even 2/3 of the republicans still in the race are saying to let it go (kasich and trump). Are they doing that with abortion? Absolutely not, because minds have not changed hardly at all, plus they're beholden to the koch brothers

from gallup:

jbjslwzc8eatod6wmovh_a.png



double the rate of support in 20 years is a hell of a lot more substantial than for abortion:

njrwl5l21ksoxa4gmq90cw.png
 
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chromium

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Exactly. I say the same thing, and I am a very religious and spiritual person, so I feel like if I can see the logic why can't anyone else.

~Roger T. Cooper~

because they hate the gays so much that they don't care about the distinction? They don't care about the constitution or allow their prejudices to convince themselves that gays are not protected by the constitution and have no rights?

i mean here is the summation of the legal, ethical, and culture arguments against the basic rights and dignity of any minority: "I'm better than you!"
 

AGENT J

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Why does it seem that people, especially the Church at large, want to make it as though Marriage is all about religion? Marriage in this country is a civil institution that can be given religious connotations, but is overall a legal institution. I personally believe that marriage is a civil right and shouldn't be denied anyone, and when granted it shouldn't be ridiculed and judged by people who are SUPPOSED to love everyone. So I am asking what are you guys' opinions regarding same sex marriage and the Constitutionality of denying/ or granting marriages between people of the same sex.

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Because that false fantasy is the best thing they felt they had to make an argument agsint equal rights .. .prblem is nobody honest, edcuated, objective and who actually supported equal rights bought it. There was no logical reason too.
 

Cardinal

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But they weren't denied the ability to marry each other. They were denied the government marriage contract that provides benefits to the marriage itself. If they wanted to they could have found someone willing to marry them and have a private contract of their choosing be drawn up.

You know, it's funny you say that, because that's actually my argument. I'm wondering if you co-opted it. When I used that argument, it was in response to the notion that government should "get out of marriage." And I pointed out, rightly, that government is only in the civil institution that it is involved with. Technically, if you don't want government to be in marriage, then simply put, you don't have to have a government marriage. Get married at your church. Get married at Burning Man. Get married with your dog acting as minister while it's wearing an adorable little black robe. It's up to you. Where of course you go wrong is in forgetting that gays were denied the ability to be married within the government institution, which is of course what they wanted all along.
 

Paleocon

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Why does it seem that people, especially the Church at large, want to make it as though Marriage is all about religion? Marriage in this country is a civil institution that can be given religious connotations, but is overall a legal institution. I personally believe that marriage is a civil right and shouldn't be denied anyone, and when granted it shouldn't be ridiculed and judged by people who are SUPPOSED to love everyone. So I am asking what are you guys' opinions regarding same sex marriage and the Constitutionality of denying/ or granting marriages between people of the same sex.

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People such as yourself who support homosexual pseudomarriage often try to shift the conversation to religion because:

A. They are monomaniacs.

B. It hells them obfuscate the perverse nature of what they support.
 
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