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Russia Pulls Out of Nuclear Treaty in ‘Symmetrical’ Response to U.S. Move

I'm not sure you get how treaties work.

I know full well how they work. You are only thinking of the on-paper aspects. I'm talking realpolitik. Treaty or no, the U.S. can still uphold a higher moral and political value. The fact that we're not anymore is pretty pathetic.
 
If there was negative pressure on Russia, there would not have been a violation.
It needs to be overhauled. China is not a party too the treaty, and they have been designing and building such weapons. All it's been doing is hamstring ing the USA.

It still doesn't answer my question. Why do we need to produce more nukes when we have spent years beginning the process of disposing of them? Our arsenal is large enough to blow the surface of the earth to hell. We don't need more. It's not a show of force that we make more.

The values that the U.S. used to uphold are going out the window under Trump. The same thing happened when he pulled out of the Iran talks.

If we end up in a security crisis in the future, it will be his fault.
 
Do you understand the stupidity of your statement in a thread about Trump antagonizing the Kremlin?

That also goes for the rest of the weenie brigade who can't make up their mind because there's no wind today.

Going for the "I'm out of logical points, so I'm going to result to childish insults" move already? :lol:
 
I know full well how they work. You are only thinking of the on-paper aspects. I'm talking realpolitik. Treaty or no, the U.S. can still uphold a higher moral and political value. The fact that we're not anymore is pretty pathetic.

What "higher moral value" is there in holding to the terms of a treaty that the other party is reneging on?

The realpolitik is that it makes us look stupid while Russia flaunts it.

Our response is appropriate:

We spent six years trying to work with the Russians, making over 30 attempts to address their breach. They have not done this.

They are in material breach. We have started the six-month withdrawal process, as provided for in the treaty, due to this breach, with the statement that if they rectify their breach, we will not withdraw. It is on them.

By all international custom, we are in the golden position. THAT is the realpolitik.
 
See my post above.

Just because they reneged it's not excuse for us to do the same.

It's certainly no excuse for us to start building bigger and more deadly nuclear weapons after we have been in the process of reducing our stock of them for years now.

This is a totally reversal of all the good previous Presidents have tried to do in this department.

Let me show you what in my opinion is the root of the problem:

The story does not start with the Russians suddenly making a decision to violate the INF Treaty.
The story goes way back in the past when Bush decided to challenge the Russian nuclear deterrence by withdrawing from the Anti-Ballistic Treaty in 2001. Naturally, when one tries to upgrade his defense against ballistic missiles he triggers a response from the other side which will try to upgrade its offensive capability. It is also important to point that from a technological point of view, it is much easier to upgrade existing missiles than create an anti-ballistic shield to shoot down incoming missiles. Only the US technology offers some realistic prospects to develop an anti-ballistic defense. For other nations , there is no such technological option. So, the only realistic option they have to retain the balance of nuclear deterrence is to develop more and better missiles to penetrate the new anti-ballistic defenses

Here is the article from 2001

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/...of-abm-treaty-putin-calls-move-a-mistake.html

Bush Pulls Out of ABM Treaty; Putin Calls Move a Mistake


In a move that reflected what he said was "a vastly different world," President Bush formally announced today that the United States was withdrawing from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty that it signed with the Soviet Union in 1972...
 
I have a more relevant question. Why should we develop bigger weapons just because that's what Russia is doing? We already have enough to nuke the surface of Earth several times over. Why does the U.S. have to do it? Russia developing bigger weapons does not change our security dilemma because we already have enough. So why aren't we taking the higher ground instead doing this tit for tat thing that Trump likes to do?

Trump has already said that he gave the OK for the develop of stronger nukes. Here is one link that discusses it.

Don't call me a fear monger if you want me to take you seriously. Keep it civil, thanks.

That's not relevant, but I'm sure you have your answer. Do you know that "low-yield" is opposite of your claim of "bigger weapons" don't you. IOC is the step in any acquisition process where developmental items are evaluated for efficacy, and well before full Production.
 
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It still doesn't answer my question. Why do we need to produce more nukes when we have spent years beginning the process of disposing of them? Our arsenal is large enough to blow the surface of the earth to hell. We don't need more. It's not a show of force that we make more.

The values that the U.S. used to uphold are going out the window under Trump. The same thing happened when he pulled out of the Iran talks.

If we end up in a security crisis in the future, it will be his fault.

The USA can demand that Russia uphold its treaty obligations while simultaneously upholding our values.
 
What "higher moral value" is there in holding to the terms of a treaty that the other party is reneging on?

The realpolitik is that it makes us look stupid while Russia flaunts it.

Our response is appropriate:

We spent six years trying to work with the Russians, making over 30 attempts to address their breach. They have not done this.

They are in material breach. We have started the six-month withdrawal process, as provided for in the treaty, due to this breach, with the statement that if they rectify their breach, we will not withdraw. It is on them.

By all international custom, we are in the golden position. THAT is the realpolitik.

Can you answer my questions?

Why are we making more nukes???
 
Can you answer my questions?

Why are we making more nukes???

Considering we haven't left the treaty yet, we're . . . not. And there's no indication we will even if we do.

But that's just a change of subject.
 
Considering we haven't left the treaty yet, we're . . . not. And there's no indication we will even if we do.

But that's just a change of subject.

It's not a change of subject whatsoever. I already posted a link showing that Trump is giving the go ahead to increase our stockpiles and develop even more deadly weapons.

It seems you won't answer my question because it's obvious that the answer points out a major hypocrisy.

We don't need an agreement with Russia to uphold our own arms policy. We have enough nuclear weapons to satisfy nuclear deterrence. The only reason to make more is to try to match Russia in an arm's race, a race that we put to bed a long time ago but now may be re-engaged.
 
It's not a change of subject whatsoever. I already posted a link showing that Trump is giving the go ahead to increase our stockpiles and develop even more deadly weapons.

It seems you won't answer my question because it's obvious that the answer points out a major hypocrisy.

We don't need an agreement with Russia to uphold our own arms policy. We have enough nuclear weapons to satisfy nuclear deterrence. The only reason to make more is to try to match Russia in an arm's race, a race that we put to bed a long time ago but now may be re-engaged.

Well, you're talking about two different things. The warhead in the story you linked to doesn't have anything to do with this treaty. It's a replacement for aging warheads on our submarine-based Trident missile systems.

And what you're talking about is overall nuclear policy, not this treaty.

In any case, when you say:

Just because they reneged it's not excuse for us to do the same.

We are not reneging. We followed the treaty. We attempted to get the Russians to do so, and still are. And we, if we do, are leaving the treaty based on its own terms, not blatantly defying it like the Russians are.

By all customary international law, and the realpolitik of which you speak, one of the biggest guarantors of compliance is that if you break the treaty, the other side will, too, and it is expected that your non-compliance will trigger non-compliance by the other side. It's pretty much the whole point of having a treaty.

In international politics, if you bind yourself to your side of a treaty while the other side blatantly defies it, all you're doing is inviting every other party with whom you have a treaty to defy those, too.

That has been understood for thousands of years. That's realpolitik.

As for the "moral" argument, if you have a contract with your roofer, and he doesn't roof, are you going to pay him just to be on the right moral side and look good to all your neighbors? Of course you're not.
 
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