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Robert A. Heinlein postulated that morality = "women and children first"


And what? If you think I am hiding the obvious and easy solution in my pocket, I'm afraid you give me too much credit.

I think we'd have to have some major cultural shifts to address these issues, and I can't say that I personally know how to make that happen.
 
It is the CHOICE to have smaller families than prior generations.

It’s the same situation in every 1st world country where woman have access to birth control.

Do you think women liked not having control of how many children they had prior to birth control?

I will not discuss this further with someone who has already, without reason, attempted to link me to a white supremacist thank you.

Good day madame.
 
And what? If you think I am hiding the obvious and easy solution in my pocket, I'm afraid you give me too much credit.

I think we'd have to have some major cultural shifts to address these issues, and I can't say that I personally know how to make that happen.
Our birthrate among people who were born here is dropping. Discuss. Put aside, for a moment, that we don't want more immigrants.
 
I will not discuss this further with someone who has already, without reason, attempted to link me to a white supremacist thank you.

Good day madame.
How about the pros or cons of the “whiteness” chart?
 
Our birthrate among people who were born here is dropping. Discuss. Put aside, for a moment, that we don't want more immigrants.

Well, the first way to possibly address the problem is to discuss it... which I've been attempting to do.

As to immigration (pardon me for not putting it aside so quickly), that has many caveats. Among them is that it is not a permanent solution, as subsequent generations of immigrants also have lower birth rates. Cultural issues, etc.

I'd say that first, we have to agree that it is a problem... which some deny, apparently.
 
How about the pros or cons of the “whiteness chart?”

For starters, while it was presented by whoever made it as a "Whiteness chart", I would rather characterize it as (for the most part) a description of the values and norms of western civilization, and how it became the powerhouse that it is.

I don't agree with ALL of it.... there are some problematic points yes.

But it also doesn't have to be about "whiteness"... it was characterized as such by those who despise and disdain whites and "whiteness" for their own purposes. The Woke, as it were.
 
Well, the first way to possibly address the problem is to discuss it... which I've been attempting to do.

As to immigration (pardon me for not putting it aside so quickly), that has many caveats. Among them is that it is not a permanent solution, as subsequent generations of immigrants also have lower birth rates. Cultural issues, etc.

I'd say that first, we have to agree that it is a problem... which some deny, apparently.
Lower than ours? Show your work.

Our country was built on immigration and lots of "cultural issues." Do you think you're making a new argument? You should see what we did to immigrants throughout our history.
 
For starters, while it was presented by whoever made it as a "Whiteness chart", I would rather characterize it as (for the most part) a description of the values and norms of western civilization, and how it became the powerhouse that it is.

I don't agree with ALL of it.... there are some problematic points yes.

But it also doesn't have to be about "whiteness"... it was characterized as such by those who despise and disdain whites and "whiteness" for their own purposes. The Woke, as it were.

Which was the point I was making. :)
 
while it was presented by whoever made it as a "Whiteness chart", I would rather characterize it as (for the most part) a description of the values and norms of western civilization, and how it became the powerhouse that it is.
But don’t associate this at ALL with white supremacy, right?
 
For starters, while it was presented by whoever made it as a "Whiteness chart", I would rather characterize it as (for the most part) a description of the values and norms of western civilization, and how it became the powerhouse that it is.

I don't agree with ALL of it.... there are some problematic points yes.

But it also doesn't have to be about "whiteness"... it was characterized as such by those who despise and disdain whites and "whiteness" for their own purposes. The Woke, as it were.
Since it was presented and you agreed with the things on the chart, what do you not agree with?

@Captain Adverse you are welcome to ring in as well……
 
Lower than ours? Show your work.

Our country was built on immigration and lots of "cultural issues." Do you think you're making a new argument? You should see what we did to immigrants throughout our history.


I'm quite aware of our history. My point was that depending on immigration alone to shore up falling birth rates is probably not a longterm winning strategy.

I haven't got time to research gen2/gen3 birth rates and post references, I've got other things to do. I've read that they do go down in later generations... if you want exact data feel free to look it up. Sometimes I have other things to do that argue for hours with strangers on the internet, sorry. :)
 
Since it was presented and you agreed with the things on the chart, what do you not agree with?

@Captain Adverse you are welcome to ring in as well……

I'll try to get to that later, got somewhere to be irl rn.
 
I'm quite aware of our history. My point was that depending on immigration alone to shore up falling birth rates is probably not a longterm winning strategy.

I haven't got time to research gen2/gen3 birth rates and post references, I've got other things to do. I've read that they do go down in later generations... if you want exact data feel free to look it up. Sometimes I have other things to do that argue for hours with strangers on the internet, sorry. :)
Why start a thread and then say you don’t have time to argue with strangers on the internet when things get a little dicey?
 
I'm quite aware of our history. My point was that depending on immigration alone to shore up falling birth rates is probably not a longterm winning strategy.

I haven't got time to research gen2/gen3 birth rates and post references, I've got other things to do. I've read that they do go down in later generations... if you want exact data feel free to look it up. Sometimes I have other things to do that argue for hours with strangers on the internet, sorry. :)
You keep posting this but have yet to explain it. As to the rest of your post: :LOL:
 
I'm just gonna say I'm glad I haven't had to deal with any of that with my kids, and keep on keepin' on. :)

View attachment 67425755

Oh I didn't think it was any big deal.
In fact, there was a period where Karen and I were becoming convinced our daughter was gay.
We just want her to BE HAPPY. Let me make that clear.
So finally one night we broached the subject.

----"Bri, are you gay, no judgment, we just want to know and we just want you to be happy no matter which way this goes."

Peals of laughter punctuated by wide eyed "WTF?"
--- you should know that one of the things I actually do miss about her is her laughter, which is utterly delicious and if she's busting a gut about something you may find yourself laughing and wondering what we're all laughing about. ---- her laughter is infectious.

Verbatim:
"No no, I am not gay, I enjoy the male form."
Well sorry daughter...it was hard to tell because early on, the "male" forms she says she was attracted to were posters of very effeminate looking Korean K-pop guys.
Of course, when we visited her up in Portland in early 2022 she was watching a Jason Momoa movie with her female housemate and they both clearly found him likeable.

Said female housemate is now thinking of moving in with her boyfriend so our daughter is struggling to find a new roomie...tough times right now.
I hope to hear those great peals of laughter again someday soon!
 
@Goshin

I suppose the first question which needs to be addressed is should reproduction rates stay high in developed countries? Is that good or bad? Given that the Earth's human population just surpassed 8 billion people this past summer, do we really need replacement rate levels of reproduction or higher in developed countries? Those countries can maintain their populations by immigration, allowing overburdened developing and under-developed counties to reduce their surplus populations and enjoy better living conditions for those who remain. We as a species are running up against the carrying capacity of the Earth, estimated to be between 10 and 12 billion humans. When I was born the human global population was just 3 billion and globally prosperity levels even in the developed world were far lower than today. If we in the developed world want to maintain our standard of living, then we're going to have to absorb surplus populations from abroad. To expect the Earth to support billions of Asians, Africans and South/Central Americans all,living at our present customary levels of consumption is unrealistic, unless we absorb the best that the world has to offer in order to share the wealth through migration.

Now to Heinlein's points. Believe it or not, women have agency in their choices for reproduction in most developed countries. This agency has given them the power to make better choices for themselves. In a country like America which values (at least in principle) protecting the rights and freedoms of its citizens, it seems odd that Heinlein or anyone else would stress a society's collective need for domestic reproductive security over individuals' rights to make choices over their own reproductive destiny. Women now have jobs, better educatin, economic independence and more political clout, all because they have been freed from minding the cribs of the nation. Why should their individual choices be questioned through the lens of ccollectivist thinking about nationalist reproductive security or perhaps even nativism from some fringe corners of the American populace. If women are so valued that Heinlein listed them first in his moral creed, then letting them make the best reproductive choices for themselves seems only natural.

I sense that Mr. Heinlein may have been channeling a sort of pioneer morality where cultures in competition needed to out reproduce each other in order to succeed or defeat a settler-colonial project of displacement and land theft. This was a running theme through many of his books. His notion of only enfranchising veterans of interplanetary or interstellar colonial wars with the right to vote seems to indicate that Heinlein favoured some flavour of militarised manifest destiny over universal rights and freedoms for all. Forging national destinies is often hostile to the maintenance of personal liberties and freedom for all.

So I guess the takeaway question would be, "Can America rely on population replacement from immigration rather than reproduction or would the changes which that reliance brought be too unacceptable to Americans today? Not being an American, I don't know the answer to that, but in Canada we're generally more receptive to immigration and refugee resettlement than our good cousins to our south.

What say you right back at'cha!

Cheers andd be well.
Evilroddy.
 
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Long ago when our ancestors had very short lifecycles and lived in very small ponds, they evolved to limit their fecundity when the population outgrew the bio space. Those genes still exist.
 
Which I understood. Apparently many did not, or chose to misunderstand.

I also don't agree with all of that chart. There were some I agreed with as characteristic of positive ideals of Western Civilization.

Other parts were worded in such a way as to equate to "bad values" (like wealth equates to personal worth, and win at all costs) which are NOT true values of Western Civilization, but examples of negative traits exhibited by some members of any society.

The purpose of the entire presentation was to present "whiteness" (i.e. White people as a whole) in the most negative light possible. As if many of those negative "values" did not exist in every culture.
 
I guess as a follow on question to the OP…
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With now over 8,000,000,000 on this world.

Did you ever think that Thanos might have been right under certain conditions?

Is it good for the human race to have a continually growing population with no means (in any near future) to expand in mass off this world.

WW
 
The following is presented as a speculative argument based on the initial premise, not necessarily as an advocacy of it.

Robert A. Heinlein postulated that essential societal "morality" was, or should be, based on protecting women and children, as they were the future of society.
The theory goes, if you don't protect and nurture women of child-bearing age, and children, then your society is doomed because there won't be a next generation. That's the short version anyway.
(What follows is my musings *based on that perspective*, not necessarily my actual opinion in all details, mmkay?)

By that metric, how well are we doing as a society?

Eeek.... not too good, it seems. Our reproduction rates (for native-born Americans) is falling below replacement level. The same in Europe and most "developed" nations. Instead of Ehrlich's "population bomb" we're looking at a population *implosion*.

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population growth positive at this point, and that has many caveats of its own.

What are we doing wrong?
Well, almost everything, from the perspective above.

For starters, we're encouraging (from elementary school!) children to identify as other-than-hetero. The only explanation for the massive swell in non-binary/trans/etc youth (beyond all historical levels) is we've made it somehow *cool* to be "other than het".

The massive emphasis on climate doom is discouraging many young adults from parenthood. Many of them believe it would be irresponsible of them to "inflict another human on the world", and/or inflict the "doomed" world on another child.

Society has made marriage an undesirable burden. You're an independent woman, you don't need no man right? And sex is easy so who needs a wife. Many consider the odds of divorce and the consequences of it and feel a lack of incentive to marry.
Women of prime child-bearing years are encouraged to pursue career before family, and are accepted in combat units in the military. Whatever you may think about this personally, it doesn't help the starting premise.
There's the "incel" phenomenon... some say because 80% of young women are only interested in the top 5% of men, and ignore any man who doesn't have a movie-star face and abs, plus style, verve and of course, money to burn.
On the right, there is resistance to aid for impoverished children and mothers, helping ensure they will fail to meet minimum standards of success as adults and likely end up in the prison system.
Men are discouraged from being men. Their importance as husbands and fathers is widely disparaged in media. Everywhere you look, the majority of 20-something young men behave like sophomoric frat boys, more intent on parties and hook-ups than building a life or having a family.
All this despite many studies showing that children do best in a household with both mom and dad.

Some young folks go so far as to embrace human extinction as a desirable outcome (at least in theory... haven't noticed them offing themselves in record numbers).

Heinlein postulated that survival was the sine-qua-non of any society ("without this, nothing"). As an extreme example, there were the Shakers, a religious group that practiced celibacy for all. At their peak in the 19th century there were perhaps 4,000-6,000 of them. Today there are three. THREE. All elderly and soon there will be zero.
Perhaps Heinlein was onto something after all.

Thoughts?
How many dog-whistles can be packed into one op?
 
How many dog-whistles can be packed into one op?

If you're going to start THAT crap, I decline to discuss it further with you also.
 
@Goshin

I suppose the first question which needs to be addressed is should reproduction rates stay high in developed countries? Is that good or bad? Given that the Earth's human population just surpassed 8 billion people this past summer, do we really need replacement rate levels of reproduction or higher in developed countries? Those countries can maintain their populations by immigration, allowing overburdened developing and under-developed counties to reduce their surplus populations and enjoy better living conditions for those who remain. We as a species are running up against the carrying capacity of the Earth, estimated to be between 10 and 12 billion humans. When I was born the human global population was just 3 billion and globally prosperity levels even in the developed world were far lower than today. If we in the developed world want to maintain our standard of living, then we're going to have to absorb surplus populations from abroad. To expect the Earth to support billions of Asians, Africans and South/Central Americans all,living at our present customary levels of consumption is unrealistic, unless we absorb the best that the world has to offer in order to share the wealth through migration.

Now to Heinlein's points. Believe it or not, women have agency in their choices for reproduction in most developed countries. This agency has given them the power to make better choices for themselves. In a country like America which values (at least in principle) protecting the rights and freedoms of its citizens, it seems odd that Heinlein or anyone else would stress a society's collective need for domestic reproductive security over individuals' rights to make choices over their own reproductive destiny. Women now have jobs, better educatin, economic independence and more political clout, all because they have been freed from minding the cribs of the nation. Why should their individual choices be questioned through the lens of ccollectivist thinking about nationalist reproductive security or perhaps even nativism from some fringe corners of the American populace. If women are so valued that Heinlein listed them first in his moral creed, then letting them make the best reproductive choices for themselves seems only natural.

I sense that Mr. Heinlein may have been channeling a sort of pioneer morality where cultures in competition needed to out reproduce each other in order to succeed or defeat a settler-colonial project of displacement and land theft. This was a running theme through many of his books. His notion of only enfranchising veterans of interplanetary or interstellar colonial wars with the right to vote seems to indicate that Heinlein favoured some flavour of militarised manifest destiny over universal rights and freedoms for all. Forging national destinies is often hostile to the maintenance of personal liberties and freedom for all.

So I guess the takeaway question would be, "Can America rely on population replacement from immigration rather than reproduction or would the changes which that reliance brought be too unacceptable to Americans today? Not being an American, I don't know the answer to that, but in Canada we're generally more receptive to immigration and refugee resettlement than our good cousins to our south.

What say you right back at'cha!

Cheers andd be well.
Evilroddy.


Thank you for an intelligent dissent, which has been conspicuously absent to this point.

Sure, one can question whether ongoing population growth is a good thing... it probably isn't.
Population collapse though, has its own problems. Economic impact, social impact, the question of having more elders than young workers, etc.

IIRC Canada does not allow anywhere near the levels of immigration that the US does, even comparing populations per-capita. I don't think you all struggle so much with illegal immigration either.

It has been conclusively demonstrated that immigration isn't the answer to the problems of 3rd world countries... the West simply cannot absorb enough immigrants to make a real impact... more people are born into poverty in those countries than the US could let in even if we dramatically increased our intake. It could actually make things WORSE there though brain-draining the most capable. Then there's the effects on our economy and culture if we weren't selective about who got in... many of the folks in 3rd world nations that would LIKE to immigrate do not have the background to succeed in a modern capitalist economy.

Lots of issues, but as I said I've got stuff to do and can't address everything immediately... more later.
 
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