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Robert A. Heinlein postulated that morality = "women and children first"

I guess as a follow on question to the OP…
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With now over 8,000,000,000 on this world.

Did you ever think that Thanos might have been right under certain conditions?

Is it good for the human race to have a continually growing population with no means (in any near future) to expand in mass off this world.

WW


Thanos was an idiot. :)

What happens after a crisis where a lot of people die? Birth rates go up, circumstances permitting (see Baby Boom).

Cut humanity in half, we could reproduce right back up to where we were in one generation.

But leaving Thanos aside (I did enjoy the movies anyway), yeah it is a valid question. 8 billion certainly seems a-plenty to me too, and maybe even too many. But population collapse comes with its own problems. Look at Japan.
 
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If you're going to start THAT crap, I decline to discuss it further with you also.
Only points you missed were guns and religion.

Standard white, male grievance if you boil it down.

Anti-immigration
Anti-woman
Anti-alternative lifestyle

You go in for testicle tanning?

It seems you have other rl issues when you get some pushback.

I have a clue for you; we aren’t heading for extinction any time soon, we are however heading for a darkening of the species.
 
Thoughts?
For starters, we're encouraging (from elementary school!) children to identify as other-than-hetero. The only explanation for the massive swell in non-binary/trans/etc youth (beyond all historical levels) is we've made it somehow *cool* to be "other than het".
Massive swell? Encourage? How about not ostracizing or at least not beating them to a pulp. Lets see the swell.

The massive emphasis on climate doom is discouraging many young adults from parenthood. Many of them believe it would be irresponsible of them to "inflict another human on the world", and/or inflict the "doomed" world on another child.
I don't know anyone who thinks like this nor have I heard it from either of my kids, both in their 20's. I'll tell what discourages young people, the cost of raising a child along with both mom and dad being forced to work to make ends meet and a lack of a social support structure. Universal healthcare would solve a lot and eliminate the unnecessary insurance profit vig.

Society has made marriage an undesirable burden. You're an independent woman, you don't need no man right? And sex is easy so who needs a wife. Many consider the odds of divorce and the consequences of it and feel a lack of incentive to marry.
See above.

Women of prime child-bearing years are encouraged to pursue career before family, and are accepted in combat units in the military. Whatever you may think about this personally, it doesn't help the starting premise.
Necessary in many circumstances to have 2 bread winners. My wife did both and so did my mom they also had 2 kids each. The flip side is if a man leaves or they get divorced the woman can take care of herself financially. How many women are in combat units in the military? Come on.

I think the rest of the post is pure partisan banter. Heinlen also wrote in one of his novels about being able to change your sex. That would solve all your issues. LOL!
 
I have a clue for you; we aren’t heading for extinction any time soon, we are however heading for a darkening of the species.

How did you come to that conclusion?

And what does the second one mean?
 
*snip for character limit*
Putting women and children first does not equate to higher birth rate.
In fact there are multiple arguments for lower birth rate that you could make if you were operating from a position of "women and children first".
Including the fact that women are endangered by childbirth to various degrees, depending on their individual situation.

Non-hetero individuals have always existed - the increase in those who are open about it does not only have one possible explanation, it could also be that our society has always repressed them until now.
Which I am 100% sure has led to multiple unhealthy mental states and suicides.

Living costs are a far greater and more immediate block to marriage and having children than Climate change.
Even someone like myself, who thinks it likely that some form of climate change will occur and we can only mitigate it's effects if we act effectively and quickly (which we won't)...doesn't really take it much into consideration in short-term planning.

If you're serious about wanting higher reproduction rates, we should be throwing literal billions (trillions?) at programs like universal daycare (so parents can work and know their kids are cared for), mandatory minimum of 3 months paid parental leave (for both parents, so parents can be with their children in the first 3 months) , universal basic health care (so parents can afford the medical services in and around having and raising kids), and at the more complete end of this, literally paying young couples living expenses so they can still afford children if they don't have jobs. OR providing jobs, could go either way on that.


The costs of having children are the issue, not this bullshit you're worried about.
Make it ****ing EASY to make the decision, because you KNOW you'll have the money and time to properly care for kids.


Edit: And technically, there is no ****ing reason at all that people need to be married to have kids, so long as the expenses are not in play.
Except for the benefits of multiple caretakers for the kids, which is somewhat alleviated if there is free to user daycare.
 
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I doubt Heinlein could have foreseen a time when people would become so perverted that many would insist that anyone can be a man, woman, or child, if they really really really really wanted to.

Gender roles have been under attack since the 60s. Life has been constantly devalued. I doubt he would recognize what we have become. With what the Marxist left has done to society in just the last 10 years, I can imagine what it will be like in 50 years.
In his later work people changing sex became a bit of a theme.

Technology made it real sex changes, but it was definitely a thing for him.
 
The following is presented as a speculative argument based on the initial premise, not necessarily as an advocacy of it.

Robert A. Heinlein postulated that essential societal "morality" was, or should be, based on protecting women and children, as they were the future of society.
The theory goes, if you don't protect and nurture women of child-bearing age, and children, then your society is doomed because there won't be a next generation. That's the short version anyway.
(What follows is my musings *based on that perspective*, not necessarily my actual opinion in all details, mmkay?)

By that metric, how well are we doing as a society?

Eeek.... not too good, it seems. Our reproduction rates (for native-born Americans) is falling below replacement level. The same in Europe and most "developed" nations. Instead of Ehrlich's "population bomb" we're looking at a population *implosion*.

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population growth positive at this point, and that has many caveats of its own.

What are we doing wrong?
Well, almost everything, from the perspective above.

For starters, we're encouraging (from elementary school!) children to identify as other-than-hetero. The only explanation for the massive swell in non-binary/trans/etc youth (beyond all historical levels) is we've made it somehow *cool* to be "other than het".

The massive emphasis on climate doom is discouraging many young adults from parenthood. Many of them believe it would be irresponsible of them to "inflict another human on the world", and/or inflict the "doomed" world on another child.

Society has made marriage an undesirable burden. You're an independent woman, you don't need no man right? And sex is easy so who needs a wife. Many consider the odds of divorce and the consequences of it and feel a lack of incentive to marry.
Women of prime child-bearing years are encouraged to pursue career before family, and are accepted in combat units in the military. Whatever you may think about this personally, it doesn't help the starting premise.
There's the "incel" phenomenon... some say because 80% of young women are only interested in the top 5% of men, and ignore any man who doesn't have a movie-star face and abs, plus style, verve and of course, money to burn.
On the right, there is resistance to aid for impoverished children and mothers, helping ensure they will fail to meet minimum standards of success as adults and likely end up in the prison system.
Men are discouraged from being men. Their importance as husbands and fathers is widely disparaged in media. Everywhere you look, the majority of 20-something young men behave like sophomoric frat boys, more intent on parties and hook-ups than building a life or having a family.
All this despite many studies showing that children do best in a household with both mom and dad.

Some young folks go so far as to embrace human extinction as a desirable outcome (at least in theory... haven't noticed them offing themselves in record numbers).

Heinlein postulated that survival was the sine-qua-non of any society ("without this, nothing"). As an extreme example, there were the Shakers, a religious group that practiced celibacy for all. At their peak in the 19th century there were perhaps 4,000-6,000 of them. Today there are three. THREE. All elderly and soon there will be zero.
Perhaps Heinlein was onto something after all.

Thoughts?
Reproduction rates are down in first world countries because of a variety of reasons, like more women becoming part of the workforce and concentrating on their careers instead of doing the traditional thing of raising a family.

On the other hand, first world economies have a high cost of living, and I believe this is one of the main reasons why. It's simply too expensive to raise a child, when so much of the money one earns goes to taxes to support such a massive welfare/nanny state. 3rd world countries continue to have population booms, because more kids are needed to support older folks there due to having less welfare systems and a lower cost of living.
 
Robert Heinlein had a history of divorces, failed relationships, poverty and poor health. If it wasn't for his 3rd wife, nothing he actually wrote would have ever made it to publication because the man was a disorganized mess of a human.

I am a sci-fi fan and Heinlein is the most overrated author of the genre.

I like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, though.
 
Reproduction rates are down in first world countries because of a variety of reasons, like more women becoming part of the workforce and concentrating on their careers instead of doing the traditional thing of raising a family.

On the other hand, first world economies have a high cost of living, and I believe this is one of the main reasons why. It's simply too expensive to raise a child, when so much of the money one earns goes to taxes to support such a massive welfare/nanny state. 3rd world countries continue to have population booms, because more kids are needed to support older folks there due to having less welfare systems and a lower cost of living.
And you know...that entire lack of birth control thing. So women don't really get a choice.
 
You make him sound like an utter failure, which is hardly the case.

He graduated from the Naval Academy and served some years in the Navy, rising in rank. His naval career ended due to tuberculosis, which was a common scourge in his generation. Yes, he had other health problems in his 60s and 70s... as most people do.

He did have two marriages that ended in divorce... as quite a few people have... followed by a third that lasted forty years, successful by most anyone's standards.

Almost as many books as Steven King, served on the Space Advisory Board, died with a net worth of 40 million dollars. Cited by many as their inspiration for going into science, engineering or space travel.


Now I'm not saying he's my ultimate hero or I agree with him in all things (it is not so), but I think your two-line cavalier dismissal is highly unwarranted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein
His writings influenced me in many regards including his most famous novel, not the movie which was a gross mischaracterization of it.
So much of that "whiteness" chart is simply things that enabled us to become the advanced and prosperous society we became, and are now losing.
Ironic considering they misquoted the third statement about rugged individualism. which is "You get what you EARN." Not as they say deserve. -
 
And you know...that entire lack of birth control thing. So women don't really get a choice.
There is plenty of birth control in the third world. Its just not used.
 
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Yes, he did. And was also on the Space Advisory Board. Was chosen to give the graduation speech to the 1973 Naval Academy graduating class as a noteworthy alumni. And is noted as the inspiration for many thousands of high-achieving engineers, scientists and astronauts for entering their field. When you can point to half the accomplishments he had, I'll have much more respect for your opinions.



That was *one* note among many. That you choo

It's still fiction
 
I am a sci-fi fan and Heinlein is the most overrated author of the genre.

I like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, though.


He IS over rated, but not the most.

Azimov was far more productive & creative, the "Foundation" series is a work of art. I hope to live long enough to see the same amount of energy and creativity that went into the disappointing "Star Wars" idiocy be put into a Foundation series. The world needs "Hari Seldon" now.
 
And you know...that entire lack of birth control thing. So women don't really get a choice.
Well, women in the third world opt out of birth control for cultural/religious reasons.
 
Thoughts?

A few.

The decline in fertility rates is a global phenomenon, even in locations know for their higher than average birth rates (see sub-Sahara Africa and the Middle East).

Marriage rates have also decreased in the United States: but so have divorce rates. Millennial get married later, start families later, but stay together more often.

While I'm certain the rise in inclusivity has seen an increased in the number of people identifying as other than heteronormative, this has as much to do with the expansion of what non-heteronormative means.

I think a problem with a lot of Americans who feel that our society has regressed or declined are too quick to ignore that our golden age was made possible by having a continent full or resources that we did not need to share much of, and the rest of the world recovering from several decades of violent conflict and instability that killed over 100 million people. It's easy to be in first place when everyone else is crawling.
 
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For starters, while it was presented by whoever made it as a "Whiteness chart", I would rather characterize it as (for the most part) a description of the values and norms of western civilization, and how it became the powerhouse that it is.

I don't agree with ALL of it.... there are some problematic points yes.

But it also doesn't have to be about "whiteness"... it was characterized as such by those who despise and disdain whites and "whiteness" for their own purposes. The Woke, as it were.
Do people actually despise many of those things you listed? I think what people actually despise is the idea that this is the way you should live your life, or that not conforming to these things is somehow wrong. I don't think anyone feels any disdain for nuclear families, stay-at-home moms, Christians, people who find worth in the work they do, etc. I do however think they feel disdain for the people who think you need to be these things, and believe it's wrong to have families with same-sex couples, moms being the main breadwinners, finding self-worth outside of how much money you make, etc.
 
So much of that "whiteness" chart is simply things that enabled us to become the advanced and prosperous society we became, and are now losing.

Another is Americans retroactively justifying their success with simply having better attributes like more innovative, harder working, and more practical than other people's.
 
do you know peter Henlein?

Peter Henlein (also spelled Henle or Hele)[1] (1485 - August 1542), a locksmith and clockmaker of Nuremberg, Germany, is often considered the inventor of the watch.[2][3] He was one of the first craftsmen to make small ornamental portable clocks which were often worn as pendants or attached to clothing,[4] and which are regarded as the first watches. Many sources also erroneously[5][6][7] credit him as the inventor of the mainspring.[1][8][9][10]

 
Love Heinlein's work. The man? Got fashy after Ginny. Problematic as **** on women, but boy did he believe in multiple genders.
 
The following is presented as a speculative argument based on the initial premise, not necessarily as an advocacy of it.

Robert A. Heinlein postulated that essential societal "morality" was, or should be, based on protecting women and children, as they were the future of society.
The theory goes, if you don't protect and nurture women of child-bearing age, and children, then your society is doomed because there won't be a next generation. That's the short version anyway.
(What follows is my musings *based on that perspective*, not necessarily my actual opinion in all details, mmkay?)

By that metric, how well are we doing as a society?

Eeek.... not too good, it seems. Our reproduction rates (for native-born Americans) is falling below replacement level. The same in Europe and most "developed" nations. Instead of Ehrlich's "population bomb" we're looking at a population *implosion*.

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population growth positive at this point, and that has many caveats of its own.

What are we doing wrong?
Well, almost everything, from the perspective above.

For starters, we're encouraging (from elementary school!) children to identify as other-than-hetero. The only explanation for the massive swell in non-binary/trans/etc youth (beyond all historical levels) is we've made it somehow *cool* to be "other than het".

The massive emphasis on climate doom is discouraging many young adults from parenthood. Many of them believe it would be irresponsible of them to "inflict another human on the world", and/or inflict the "doomed" world on another child.

Society has made marriage an undesirable burden. You're an independent woman, you don't need no man right? And sex is easy so who needs a wife. Many consider the odds of divorce and the consequences of it and feel a lack of incentive to marry.
Women of prime child-bearing years are encouraged to pursue career before family, and are accepted in combat units in the military. Whatever you may think about this personally, it doesn't help the starting premise.
There's the "incel" phenomenon... some say because 80% of young women are only interested in the top 5% of men, and ignore any man who doesn't have a movie-star face and abs, plus style, verve and of course, money to burn.
On the right, there is resistance to aid for impoverished children and mothers, helping ensure they will fail to meet minimum standards of success as adults and likely end up in the prison system.
Men are discouraged from being men. Their importance as husbands and fathers is widely disparaged in media. Everywhere you look, the majority of 20-something young men behave like sophomoric frat boys, more intent on parties and hook-ups than building a life or having a family.
All this despite many studies showing that children do best in a household with both mom and dad.

Some young folks go so far as to embrace human extinction as a desirable outcome (at least in theory... haven't noticed them offing themselves in record numbers).

Heinlein postulated that survival was the sine-qua-non of any society ("without this, nothing"). As an extreme example, there were the Shakers, a religious group that practiced celibacy for all. At their peak in the 19th century there were perhaps 4,000-6,000 of them. Today there are three. THREE. All elderly and soon there will be zero.
Perhaps Heinlein was onto something after all.

Thoughts?
Heinlein also wrote the Lazarus long books which were full of incest and other weirdness.

I wouldn’t use him as a standard.
 
The following is presented as a speculative argument based on the initial premise, not necessarily as an advocacy of it.

Robert A. Heinlein postulated that essential societal "morality" was, or should be, based on protecting women and children, as they were the future of society.
The theory goes, if you don't protect and nurture women of child-bearing age, and children, then your society is doomed because there won't be a next generation. That's the short version anyway.
(What follows is my musings *based on that perspective*, not necessarily my actual opinion in all details, mmkay?)

By that metric, how well are we doing as a society?

Eeek.... not too good, it seems. Our reproduction rates (for native-born Americans) is falling below replacement level. The same in Europe and most "developed" nations. Instead of Ehrlich's "population bomb" we're looking at a population *implosion*.

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population growth positive at this point, and that has many caveats of its own.

What are we doing wrong?
Well, almost everything, from the perspective above.

For starters, we're encouraging (from elementary school!) children to identify as other-than-hetero. The only explanation for the massive swell in non-binary/trans/etc youth (beyond all historical levels) is we've made it somehow *cool* to be "other than het".

The massive emphasis on climate doom is discouraging many young adults from parenthood. Many of them believe it would be irresponsible of them to "inflict another human on the world", and/or inflict the "doomed" world on another child.

Society has made marriage an undesirable burden. You're an independent woman, you don't need no man right? And sex is easy so who needs a wife. Many consider the odds of divorce and the consequences of it and feel a lack of incentive to marry.
Women of prime child-bearing years are encouraged to pursue career before family, and are accepted in combat units in the military. Whatever you may think about this personally, it doesn't help the starting premise.
There's the "incel" phenomenon... some say because 80% of young women are only interested in the top 5% of men, and ignore any man who doesn't have a movie-star face and abs, plus style, verve and of course, money to burn.
On the right, there is resistance to aid for impoverished children and mothers, helping ensure they will fail to meet minimum standards of success as adults and likely end up in the prison system.
Men are discouraged from being men. Their importance as husbands and fathers is widely disparaged in media. Everywhere you look, the majority of 20-something young men behave like sophomoric frat boys, more intent on parties and hook-ups than building a life or having a family.
All this despite many studies showing that children do best in a household with both mom and dad.

Some young folks go so far as to embrace human extinction as a desirable outcome (at least in theory... haven't noticed them offing themselves in record numbers).

Heinlein postulated that survival was the sine-qua-non of any society ("without this, nothing"). As an extreme example, there were the Shakers, a religious group that practiced celibacy for all. At their peak in the 19th century there were perhaps 4,000-6,000 of them. Today there are three. THREE. All elderly and soon there will be zero.
Perhaps Heinlein was onto something after all.

Thoughts?
My first thought was this gent should lay off the doobies for a few days.
 
Heinlein also wrote the Lazarus long books which were full of incest and other weirdness.

I wouldn’t use him as a standard.

He got pretty weird in his later years, yes. I think senility was setting in.

I don't agree with every idea he ever had... hell HE didn't, he liked to play with ideas and concepts as a writer of fiction. He often presented societies where the main characters didn't really question what things were like, even though to the contemporary reader a lot of it was super-weird and some of it would seem very wrong (see Starship Troopers)... a lot of which was his irony about confirmation bias.

Doesn't mean his stuff isn't worth reading and thinking about, but you do you.
 
He got pretty weird in his later years, yes. I think senility was setting in.

I don't agree with every idea he ever had... hell HE didn't, he liked to play with ideas and concepts as a writer of fiction. He often presented societies where the main characters didn't really question what things were like, even though to the contemporary reader a lot of it was super-weird and some of it would seem very wrong (see Starship Troopers)... a lot of which was his irony about confirmation bias.

Doesn't mean his stuff isn't worth reading and thinking about, but you do you.
I’ve read a lot of his books as a teen. It was an interesting read.
 
Heinlein sounds German ….. was he German?
 
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