• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Recreational Violence with a Sinister Twist

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That is how the Police have described the riots in Northern Ireland over the past two days.

People apparently used anything they could get their hands on, steel bars, brooms even golf balls and one woman officer is seriously injured after having a sheet of concrete thrown on her.

Nonetheless no one was shot.

Police officer seriously injured after loyalist march ends in sectarian riot | UK news | The Guardian

Seems children as young as 8 joined in this. Children who had not even been born when the 'troubles' in Ireland ended.

So what is going on? Is this a blip or something more serious?

I guess I think it is a blip. All the old warriors are in Parliament and I cannot see that happening again.

However, a Catholic interviewed said he believed the situation had not changed that much. He believed Catholics are still being treated like second class citizens.
 

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,897
Reaction score
8,834
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
-- a Catholic interviewed said he believed the situation had not changed that much. He believed Catholics are still being treated like second class citizens.

The scenes last night were disgraceful, as if the last few years since the "Good Friday" agreement had never happened. The economy of Northern Ireland is very different from that which existed during the troubles and people's lives are different.

I have no easy guess as to why but youth unemployment during a recession probably plays a part in why bored teenagers engaged in such violence. There are still extreme views in the district (some of the worst racism in the UK exists there against ethnic migrants) and things could develop in new ways yet.
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Makes me hopeful we'll get the old IRA back. I was really disappointed when they started targeting civilians and common soldiers, that isn't how you fight an occupying army if you expect to be recognized legitimately.
 

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,897
Reaction score
8,834
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Makes me hopeful we'll get the old IRA back. I was really disappointed when they started targeting civilians and common soldiers, that isn't how you fight an occupying army if you expect to be recognized legitimately.

The majority population of Northern Ireland did not wish for independence from the mainland UK so the army that was sent in was not an "occupying army."

Besides, if you actually watched the footage from the weekend, the IRA were out calling for these rioters to go back home and stop the violence.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I am an Irish citizen, so grew up with the Northern Ireland situation, producing frequent news reports. There never seemed to be a day of news without something being reported. :(

So, how do I start trying to explain the current situation, with all its complication. Here is an attempt.

The Loyalists hold a highly provocative and obscene march through the streets or N. Irland every year. They are also known as the Orange men. What they support and are nostalgic about is Ireland when it was under British rule, and the victory of William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne, which had a major part causing the troubled Irish political history. The march is pretty much a lement on their part, about Ireland winning its independence and a wish to go back to the days of British rule and a culture they believe is theirs. Those who were at a disadvantage because of British rule, mainly Irish Catholics see the march as a taunt, especially as discrimination against them has been usual in Northern Ireland, even since the South became a republic.

It is not so much a blip, as the aftermath of years of tension. Though the situation is making progress towards being resolved, it is highly volitile, and there are outbreaks of violence periodically. It is nowhere near as bad as it used to be though, and the IRA as an organisation have given up their weapons, in order to proceed towards a peaceful Northern Ireland, which will be governed by a coalition, which ideally if it would ever get its act together, cater for the needs of both the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland.

Both the Irish and British governments are heavily involved with pushing this coalition towards working, but the various parts of it refuse to be even in the same room as each other.

I suppose like all political situations, it is never as simple as something ending and something new beginning. There is always an in between phase, and this phase is what Northern Ireland is going through at the moment.
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
The majority population of Northern Ireland did not wish for independence from the mainland UK so the army that was sent in was not an "occupying army."
The majority of the LOYALIST population that was shoveled over by the British didnt want independence. The Irish, y'know the people whose country it is, weren't as thrilled.

Besides, if you actually watched the footage from the weekend, the IRA were out calling for these rioters to go back home and stop the violence.
The modern IRA has essentially given up. They were forced to by the popular politic to disarm because they targeted civilians.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Makes me hopeful we'll get the old IRA back.

That is doubtful. Since 9/11 Americans have come to realise just how much misery and fear terrrorists can cause, so the IRA pretty much lost all its financial support, from Americans. Most of the money they used to terrorise came from collections made in the US. Without this funding, they are likely to remain unarmed or poorly armed at least. The drying up of the funding after 9/11 played a major role in the decision of the IRA to stop fighting. As well as that, the IRA now know that terrorist pressure will not cause Northern Ireland to be given to the Irish government to govern. Also, the IRA have almost no support from the citizens of the Republic of Ireland, so it puts a question mark over who and what they are doing all the fighting for. And, they certainly dont want the British army back in Northern Ireland. And, Gerry Adams has a rather nice position in the new government, so he wont want to lead any regrouping of the IRA.
 

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,897
Reaction score
8,834
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The majority of the LOYALIST population that was shoveled over by the British didnt want independence. The Irish, y'know the people whose country it is, weren't as thrilled.

Course they weren't thrilled but the region is where it is now and the IRA and the Loyalists are working together in some form or another. Most of the region has moved beyond the past.

Sounds like you need to as well.

-- The modern IRA has essentially given up. They were forced to by the popular politic to disarm because they targeted civilians.

The modern IRA either represent their people or they don't and the "popular politic" wanted a better life which they have been getting ever since the Good Friday agreement.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Besides, if you actually watched the footage from the weekend, the IRA were out calling for these rioters to go back home and stop the violence.

Yes, the IRA want a halt to the sporadic violence outbreaks. Negotiations with them have been successful, and they are confident that there is a way forward, which will benefit everybody if it works. And, the Orange Men are basically a pack of stupid, mindless nationalists and nothing else. Maybe the way to deal with them, if their marches wont be made illegal is to completely ignore them, and put energies into making the new coalition work. This is likley how the main players of the former IRA are thinking.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The majority of the LOYALIST population that was shoveled over by the British didnt want independence. The Irish, y'know the people whose country it is, weren't as thrilled.


The modern IRA has essentially given up. They were forced to by the popular politic to disarm because they targeted civilians.

You really have an overly simplistic view of the situation.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
BTW, it is ridiculous to call what happened 'Recreational Violence'. Things got out of hand, and the police couldnt control it, but there was nothing recreational about it. People really do get angry with the displays the Loyalists put on.
 

Republic_Of_Public

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I have no easy guess as to why but youth unemployment during a recession probably plays a part in why bored teenagers engaged in such violence.

Odd excuse for bad behaviour. In a wider context I've heard that explain away general yobbery by youngsters. However, if I was to try and beat up my nearest Labour or Lib Dem councillors on account of being at a loose end, I bet the liberal sympathy would miraculously vanish in my case.


(And another good one is saying that of course there'll be more crime and anti-social behaviour due to poverty. How insulting for all those good people who grew up during the crushing Depression of the 1930s, folk motivated by helping each other and keeping the tone up regardless!)
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Odd excuse for bad behaviour. In a wider context I've heard that explain away general yobbery by youngsters. However, if I was to try and beat up my nearest Labour or Lib Dem councillors on account of being at a loose end, I bet the liberal sympathy would miraculously vanish in my case.


(And another good one is saying that of course there'll be more crime and anti-social behaviour due to poverty. How insulting for all those good people who grew up during the crushing Depression of the 1930s, folk motivated by helping each other and keeping the tone up regardless!)

Well, economics are often what prompts unrest in the world. And, as well as that, Irelands tragic historical happenings went on for a lot longer than the depression, which is likely why it is taking so long to fix the problems. Saying 'Shame on you' is not going to do much to resolve how they feel and how they are behaving.
 

Republic_Of_Public

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Saying 'Shame on you' is not going to do much to resolve how they feel and how they are behaving.

As an earlier poster said, things have changed in Northern Ireland socially and politically, even if many old attitudes remain. There is more of what we could call normality.

And blimey, it was only an Orange march. In London there were many League of Empire Loyalist and National Front marches, but nobody else was bothered by them (outside of a crust of militant far-leftists after a good punch-up themselves). And if less flared up in reaction to extremists like that, there's not much to say in defence of the thugs attacking the Orange men.

Northern Ireland is a part of Britain, so if Loyalists want to march then there shouldn't really be unrest this large against them. Unless there's further news that the Orange men provoked them or something.
 
Last edited:

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,897
Reaction score
8,834
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Odd excuse for bad behaviour.

A "small part" does not mean "the only excuse." You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

-- if I was to try and beat up my nearest Labour or Lib Dem councillors on account of being at a loose end, I bet the liberal sympathy would miraculously vanish in my case.

They weren't doing that anyway.

-- (And another good one is saying that of course there'll be more crime and anti-social behaviour due to poverty. How insulting for all those good people who grew up during the crushing Depression of the 1930s, folk motivated by helping each other and keeping the tone up regardless!)

I would guess (haven't looked at it as much) that economics does play a part in particular crimes. I'm only guessing here as I was in the first post and even then, it's not the only reason.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
At the risk of seeming dramatic, but with the hope of putting this into prespective for some people, the Irish, British history was probably the most vicious case of genocide in the history of Europe and this is why so much tension lingers.

Ireland at one stage had a population of 9 million. Despite it being almost a hundred years since independence, the population has now only reached around 4 million.
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You really have an overly simplistic view of the situation.

Unfortunately it was a view shared by many ill-informed Americans who romanticized about the struggles...

Paul
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Unfortunately it was a view shared by many ill-informed Americans who romanticized about the struggles...
Romanticized nothing. I identify as Irish first, American second. As such, I am familiar with the conflict through family.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Unfortunately it was a view shared by many ill-informed Americans who romanticized about the struggles...

Paul

Indeed, this is how many Irish citizens have viewed the American part in it, for many years. Romantic I mean, and not aligned with how many of us as Irish citizens felt about the IRA.

In around 1992, I was on a train in France. A Chinese American of around 21 years old with very wealthy parents told me his father donates to the IRA, because he sees the Irish situation as like the Chinese situation. He was surprised, when I told him that many Irish citizens would want his father to stop funding the IRA.
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Romanticized nothing. I identify as Irish first, American second. As such, I am familiar with the conflict through family.

Are your family members terrorists?
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Romanticized nothing. I identify as Irish first, American second. As such, I am familiar with the conflict through family.

An opinion probably deeply felt within your family. Unfortunately, although subjective opinion has its place it tells just part of the story and will neglect the parts that fail to fit the jigsaw.

Paul
 
Top Bottom