Recreational Violence with a Sinister Twist

[gunner]

Close, Loyalists

What, the loyalists had no paramilitaries?

Paul

 

[Mell]

The loyalists did have paramilitaries. They were also disarmed, as part of the peace agreements.

 

[gunner]

The loyalists did have paramilitaries. They were also disarmed, as part of the peace agreements.

I was being facetious

Paul

 

[alexa]

Close, Loyalists

Hoplite, now I am suspicious of you. Were you not here some time ago denying that the PIRA were terrorists and have you not on this thread stated your wish for the old IRA to come back.

Come clean! Are your family really loyalist? Where do you stand?

on another note, though I have not heard on last night, fighting continues. Seems mobile phones and the internet allow an extremely dangerous activity to be a spectator sport. I think yesterday we were up to 60 police injured.

 

[Mell]

Seems mobile phones and the internet allow an extremely dangerous activity to be a spectator sport. I think yesterday we were up to 60 police injured.

I suppose, what is a spectator sport to some is an information source to the rest of us.

 

[Mell]

Come clean! Are your family really loyalist? Where do you stand?

I dont think being a loyalist would necessarily mean a person agrees with their political means or even affiliates with what they stand for.

 

[alexa]

I suppose, what is a spectator sport to some is an information source to the rest of us.

well I guess I was being a bit facetious there.

The news last night showed how through mobiles people are sending pics to others and enticing them to come and join in and also using the interet.

On one level it appears that people are treating it as a sport. Many of the people involved are children.

However this is very serious business and I wonder if all those engaged are aware of the possible consequences of their actions. With Northern Irelands history this is nothing to be played around with.

We are told that some of the fractional terrorists groups got the agitation started. Their previous attempts at bombs did not work.

 

[alexa]

I dont think being a loyalist would necessarily mean a person agrees with their political means or even affiliates with what they stand for.

It would indeed be a strange Lolylist who wanted the IRA back and who did not think PIRA were terrorists. However I will await Hoplights reply on this.

 

[Mell]

It would indeed be a strange Lolylist who wanted the IRA back and who did not think PIRA were terrorists. However I will await Hoplights reply on this.

What does it matter? Interrogating him wont make a difference to anything, unless you are the police.

 

[Mell]

We are told that some of the fractional terrorists groups got the agitation started. Their previous attempts at bombs did not work.

Well, yes this has been going on periodically since the disarmament...

''However this is very serious business and I wonder if all those engaged are aware of the possible consequences of their actions. With Northern Irelands history this is nothing to be played around with.''


You are starting to sound like a teacher or a parent now.

I think, everybody in Ireland knows the situation in nothern Ireland is serious.

 

[alexa]

What does it matter? Interrogating him wont make a difference to anything, unless you are the police.

Gosh Mel, what is the matter with you. Political forums are about debating and as for suggesting what was a light hearted inquiry is interrogating? Further what on earth makes you think the police are going to have any interest in an American who has expressed support for the PIRA on a political forum? You yourself know they were freely collecting funds for them until Clinton put a stop to it.

 

[alexa]

Well, yes this has been going on periodically since the disarmament...

''However this is very serious business and I wonder if all those engaged are aware of the possible consequences of their actions. With Northern Irelands history this is nothing to be played around with.''


You are starting to sound like a teacher or a parent now.

I think, everybody in Ireland knows the situation in nothern Ireland is serious.

What have I done to you that you are being so flaming and baiting and acting so superior to me?

 

[Mell]

What have I done to you that you are being so flaming and baiting and acting so superior to me?

You have done nothing to me. I am just trying to figure out where your political points are comming from. Anyway, never mind. It does not matter that much.

 

[Hoplite]

Hoplite, now I am suspicious of you. Were you not here some time ago denying that the PIRA were terrorists and have you not on this thread stated your wish for the old IRA to come back.

I have stated I wouldnt classify the PIRA (or any other organization) as a terrorist organization because the label is so broad as to be able to include almost anyone. I dislike the tactics of the modern IRA. What I want to see come back is the 1919 style of IRA return.

Come clean! Are your family really loyalist? Where do you stand?

My family in Ireland are mostly armchair loyalists. No one has actually picked up a gun (except for a couple of distant relatives who were IRA) but the majority of my family are full-blood Irish who supported the British occupation.

I personally would pick up a rifle to make Northern Ireland part of Ireland again in a heartbeat if we had a current coherent movement that didn't attack civilians. Ireland was invaded and seized illegally and Northern Ireland is being held as spoils of war from an illegal invasion. The British began planting loyalists there to give them a political backing and I dont see their claims as legitimate.

 

[alexa]

I have stated I wouldnt classify the PIRA (or any other organization) as a terrorist organization because the label is so broad as to be able to include almost anyone. I dislike the tactics of the modern IRA. What I want to see come back is the 1919 style of IRA return.

Thank you

My family in Ireland are mostly armchair loyalists. No one has actually picked up a gun (except for a couple of distant relatives who were IRA) but the majority of my family are full-blood Irish who supported the British occupation.

I personally would pick up a rifle to make Northern Ireland part of Ireland again in a heartbeat if we had a current coherent movement that didn't attack civilians. Ireland was invaded and seized illegally and Northern Ireland is being held as spoils of war from an illegal invasion. The British began planting loyalists there to give them a political backing and I dont see their claims as legitimate.

Interesting, my Mother was Irish too from Dublin but I didn't know any Irish were loyalist, though she did complain about being refused a British passport towards the end of her life. When she was born the British still had the whole of Ireland.

The only reason there is a Northern Ireland is because the protestants refused to stop fighting. It is like many situations, would be preferable if it had never happened but we cannot turn the clock back.

I don't think at the moment there is even within the caltholic community a majority wanting unification and I think myself Ireland is going to have to bring the Church out of it's politics if it ever hopes to have unification - something which is very possible as I understand more and more Irish are giving up religion.

Maybe if the North follows suit they can have one Ireland and let go of religious hatred.

Hmm will it ever happen? - that is the letting go.

 

[Mell]

I think myself Ireland is going to have to bring the Church out of it's politics if it ever hopes to have unification - something which is very possible as I understand more and more Irish are giving up religion.

The church is already out of politics. Ireland and England are secular states.

 

[Hoplite]

Interesting, my Mother was Irish too from Dublin but I didn't know any Irish were loyalist, though she did complain about being refused a British passport towards the end of her life. When she was born the British still had the whole of Ireland.

There are some. Usually it was the more well-to-do or politically connected that welcomed the British because of a mutual beneficial relationship; the British had native Irish to legitimize their invasion and the Irish who supported the British got protection and special treatment.

Family legend says that Lord Edward FitzGerald was arrested after being turned in by an ancestor, Francis Magan. A rather shrewd series of political and economic moves later, my family endeared itself to the British establishment. It's family legend, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't think at the moment there is even within the caltholic community a majority wanting unification and I think myself Ireland is going to have to bring the Church out of it's politics if it ever hopes to have unification - something which is very possible as I understand more and more Irish are giving up religion.

The sense I get is that many in the south DO want reunification, but aren't willing to fight anymore about it.

 

[alexa]

The church is already out of politics. Ireland and England are secular states.

No, I don't think this is so.

Atheist Ireland | Building a rational, ethical and secular society free from superstition and supernaturalism and

Is the republic of ireland a secular state? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers

The whole of the UK, that is Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland is however.

There are some. Usually it was the more well-to-do or politically connected that welcomed the British because of a mutual beneficial relationship; the British had native Irish to legitimize their invasion and the Irish who supported the British got protection and special treatment.

Family legend says that Lord Edward FitzGerald was arrested after being turned in by an ancestor, Francis Magan. A rather shrewd series of political and economic moves later, my family endeared itself to the British establishment. It's family legend, so take it for what it's worth.

Ah, you have collaborators in your past!!

The sense I get is that many in the south DO want reunification, but aren't willing to fight anymore about it.

I think that might be from '49 when they started being known more as The Republic of Ireland rather than Eire. Eire meaning the whole of Ireland.

It may happen one day. It is the natural way for Ireland to be.

 

[Hoplite]

Ah, you have collaborators in your past!!

Traitors more like. I hate the fact that my family sucked up to the same people responsible for ending a hell of a lot of other family lines and "pruning" our own with rifles.

 

[alexa]

Traitors more like. I hate the fact that my family sucked up to the same people responsible for ending a hell of a lot of other family lines and "pruning" our own with rifles.

Well like they say, we do not choose our relatives. Most of us are however spared the knowledge of what our ancestors got up to!!

I think after a while people just need to get on with their lives. Before the depression Eire was doing very well. She was having to deal with immigrants for the first time. Hopefully she will soon be doing fine again....and religion is being given up. It looks like in the not too distant future, she will become a secular State. That removes imo the major obstacle for a United Ireland

except it is still all going on in the North. There people are still identifying themselves by their branch of Christianity and by their past.

Now no one is going anywhere. The protestants have been living there for around 300 years or something.

The current violence does concern me. Northern Ireland has some stability at the moment and an opportunity to gradually work towards change. One of the strongest ideas being to end schools based on faith. I suspect more than anything this could help in bridging the community and indeed preparing it for eventually uniting back with the South.

Catholics are properly represented in parliament. There has been a peace deal and Republican orientated people are working within an acceptance that they are working for the good of Northern Ireland rather than a united Ireland at this time. It is within the population of Northern Ireland Catholics that there has recently I think not been a majority in favour of unification. That will also be because before the depression things were working out better for them.

I don't think the North needs these dissidents trying to whip up religious tension. You have a situation which is not it's best. While many who took part in the 'troubles' have found themselves needing to work through feelings of guilt over what they did, you no doubt also have a generation of young people who in some way identify with the them and in some way see them as heroes and to some extent to the extent that we are seeing children born after the troubles ended involved, I think this may be part of it.

Nothing can come of turmoil except more heartache. There is no army that can unite Ireland. That can only happen when they have healed from their past and choose to do so.

The timing is not right for unification. The timing is right for working towards sorting out the problems in Northern Ireland and a great deal of that still rests on religion.

When the North have given up identifying themselves by their religion as is happening in the South, then they will be in the position to choose whether they unite with the South or not.

While they hold onto their past which they do through their religion, they will never have that choice - so I am still wondering whether they will ever let go.

 

[Mell]

Alexa, you have a strange take on this. It is not about religion and religous phisophical disputes. It is about discrimination. It just happens, that the Catholics were/are at the butt end of the discrimination. But, it could just as easily have been about any common trait of these people that was used to determine them as a group to be discriminated against.

 

[Mell]

Traitors more like. I hate the fact that my family sucked up to the same people responsible for ending a hell of a lot of other family lines and "pruning" our own with rifles.

To sum up what Loyalists are politically: They are nationalists, without a nation. Likely, this lack of a ''real'' identity is what is at the root of things such as the over the top displays of nationalism such as the Orange Mens parades in N. Ireland.

 

[alexa]

Alexa, you have a strange take on this. It is not about religion and religous phisophical disputes. It is about discrimination. It just happens, that the Catholics were/are at the butt end of the discrimination. But, it could just as easily have been about any common trait of these people that was used to determine them as a group to be discriminated against.

The Catholics are the Natives of Ireland. The Protestants were brought in, in the main by the British to rid Ireland of the Catholics. When Eire got it's independence the whole of Ireland would have got independence except the Protestants would not stop fighting - note religion.

The protestants were then given the 6 counties where they had a majority. They well enjoyed this by not creating a situation with equal rights down to most Catholics not even having the vote note religion.

IRA Irish Republic Army are Catholic - note religion.

Yes there is discrimination but the discrimination is down to Religion as is the divide, that is why it is commonly called the religious divide.

I do not think my view is very unusual.

Are you really trying to tell me you never heard Ian Paisley make any of his religious insults? :shock:

 

[Mell]

I do not think my view is very unusual.

Maybe not. Maybe, it is typical of the opinion of those in the country you live in. Those who were not brought up in Ireland are bound to see it all in a diffent way.

Of course, I heard of Ian Paisley and his insults. I spent most of my life in Ireland. But, maybe this was meant as a retorical question... What I am saying is that it it just incidental that religion was the divide. It could just as easily have been race, gender or something else. And, Ireland and England are secular states. I dont know why you insist on arguing about this. They are officially secular states, so legally discrimination based on religious persuasion does not apply. On an individual level, as somebody hiring somebody for a job for example, it could possibly apply, but would likely be denied, if the employer was asked if it is so and it would also be illegal.

Anyway, enough of this, I am out of this discussion.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Maybe not. Maybe, it is typical of the opinion of those in the country you live in. Those who were not brought up in Ireland are bound to see it all in a diffent way.

Of course, I heard of Ian Paisley and his insults. I spent most of my life in Ireland. But, maybe this was meant as a retorical question... What I am saying is that it it just incidental that religion was the divide. It could just as easily have been race, gender or something else. And, Ireland and England are secular states. I dont know why you insist on arguing about this. They are officially secular states, so legally discrimination based on religious persuasion does not apply. On an individual level, as somebody hiring somebody for a job for example, it could possibly apply, but would likely be denied, if the employer was asked if it is so and it would also be illegal.

Anyway, enough of this, I am out of this discussion.

It really could not be gender now could it

As for race, are not Northern Irish protestants basically the same ethnicity as Northern Irish Catholics, perhaps with a bit more English blood thrown into the mix? The only thing separating them, is religion