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Real Torture.

Squawker

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Thought some people here would like to read what real torture is, since they do not seem to know.
The men said they told the marines, from Company K, Third Marines, Second Division, that they had been tortured with shocks and flogged with a strip of rubber for more than two weeks, unseen behind the windows of black glass. One of them, Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi Army, said he had been held and tortured there for 22 days.
-snip-
"They kill somebody every day," said Mr. Fathil, whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."
-snip-
Marks from beatings criss-crossed his back, and deep pocks, apparently from electric shock burns, were gouged in his skin.
The shocks, he said, felt "like my soul is being ripped out of my body." But when he would start to scream, and his body would pull up from the shock, they would begin to beat him, he said.
Source
 

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Squawker said:
Thought some people here would like to read what real torture is, since they do not seem to know.

Source
Sorry, Charlie.
These horrific acts are no longer considered torture under the new definition since they don't rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function."

Bamboo under the fingernails- no longer torture.
Thumbscrews- no longer torture
Electrical shocks- no longer torture
Red-hot irons- no longer torture
Beatings with strips of rubber- no longer torture
 

ShamMol

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Yeah, torture has so many different levels, this is just an extreme level of it. What happens at these secret prisons, Gitmo, etc. is torture sometimes and all forms of torture should be stopped. Humane treatment for humans.
 

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ShamMol said:
Yeah, torture has so many different levels, this is just an extreme level of it. What happens at these secret prisons, Gitmo, etc. is torture sometimes and all forms of torture should be stopped. Humane treatment for humans.

I find it amazing, and a little alarming, that the answer to these reports of abuse are often to point out the treatment and actions of the terrorists. Pointing out the way the terrorists mistreat their victims doesn't justify our mistreatment. One of the many things that makes this country so great is that we rise above injustice, we treat people with respect and fairness. Holding people without legal rep. and without a determinate timetable for sentencing or even a timetable for a hearing goes against what I think are some of the main principles of your society. If these people have been terrorist have hearings and let them try to defend their actions. If they are proved to be terrorist sentence them to long prison terms. If the hearing determines they were not terrorist release them.
 

ShamMol

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Pacridge said:
I find it amazing, and a little alarming, that the answer to these reports of abuse are often to point out the treatment and actions of the terrorists. Pointing out the way the terrorists mistreat their victims doesn't justify our mistreatment. One of the many things that makes this country so great is that we rise above injustice, we treat people with respect and fairness. Holding people without legal rep. and without a determinate timetable for sentencing or even a timetable for a hearing goes against what I think are some of the main principles of your society. If these people have been terrorist have hearings and let them try to defend their actions. If they are proved to be terrorist sentence them to long prison terms. If the hearing determines they were not terrorist release them.
I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.
 

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ShamMol said:
I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.
I sincerely believe that treating them fairly will help us in the long run. By treating them fairly and showing the international community that we're above this and treat people with respect and fairness we'll benefit. We'll benefit because they lose a recruiting argument and we'll gain respect and allies. Plus I think there's been several incident where we've gained info through torture tactics only to find the info was false. The person being tortured only told us stuff he thought we wanted to hear and thought would help end the torture.
 

ShamMol

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Pacridge said:
I sincerely believe that treating them fairly will help us in the long run. By treating them fairly and showing the international community that we're above this and treat people with respect and fairness we'll benefit. We'll benefit because they lose a recruiting argument and we'll gain respect and allies. Plus I think there's been several incident where we've gained info through torture tactics only to find the info was false. The person being tortured only told us stuff he thought we wanted to hear and thought would help end the torture.
Oh I do too. I actually, however, didn't know about those incidents. I wouldn't find it suprising however to see taht they are true, because when someone is being tortured, usually, they think of only getting the torture to stop and will do many things to insure taht it will stop. I think that if the terrorist mindset that we are all blood-thirsty people was destroyed, then our humane treatment would show them that this in fact was not true.
 

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It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
 

Pacridge

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
Of course these things aren't justified.

Is it justifiable for us to use their actions to justify our mistreatment or torture?
 

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.

I am completely missing your point. Nobody here is justifying the acts of the terrorists.

BTW in Time magazine there was an article that described how they treated detainee 63. They writer made it a point to say that the only time when the detainee gave the interrogators any information was when he was treated best.
 

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.

It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.

It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
You obviously didn't read our posts in which we said we should not care about what other people do. I think that we should be held to a higher standard and not be concerned with what other people are doing.
 

Tashah

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My housekeeper in Israel is an Iraqi woman of about 26. Both she and her husband were arrested by Saddam Hussein's Mukhabbarat (Secret Police) and incarcerated at Baghdad's infamous Abu Gharaib prison (yep the same one).

Quite unprofessional-like for the Mukhabbarat, her husband succombed to his horiffic wounds *before* they extracted a confession. Amina was subjected to beatings with a metal cable and then electric shocks. In her last session in the metal chair, alligator clips were attached to her toe and her lip. The voltage was sufficient enough to melt the enamel on her front teeth.

The next day, the Mukhabbarat and prison guards abandoned Abu Gharaib... as US Marines were now less than five kilometers away.

 

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Tashah said:

My housekeeper in Israel is an Iraqi woman of about 26. Both she and her husband were arrested by Saddam Hussein's Mukhabbarat (Secret Police) and incarcerated at Baghdad's infamous Abu Gharaib prison (yep the same one).

Quite unprofessional-like for the Mukhabbarat, her husband succombed to his horiffic wounds *before* they extracted a confession. Amina was subjected to beatings with a metal cable and then electric shocks. In her last session in the metal chair, alligator clips were attached to her toe and her lip. The voltage was sufficient enough to melt the enamel on her front teeth.

The next day, the Mukhabbarat and prison guards abandoned Abu Gharaib... as US Marines were now less than five kilometers away.

Yep! Saddam and his henchmen were dirt bags.
 

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The point of the post was to put things into perspective. You don't know what information the military has discovered by administering the interrogation methods use by our troops. I don't recall the name now, but do you remember the Soldier that fired a shot passed the head of a captive? He saved lives by doing that because the person started talking. Thank God he didn't get prosecuted for it as Liberals clamored for. This Liberal rhetoric about "We should be better than they are" might get our people killed. In case you forgot our troops are at war. I care more about them than some two bit thug at Gitmo. If they need to use a two by four side their head to get them to talk then so be it. If you are willing to pay the attorneys fees for all these people to have a trial, have at it. They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one. They have no right to the same treatment a US citizen would get.
 

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.
Which definition of 'terrorist' are you using here?

Tashah said:
Amina was subjected to beatings with a metal cable and then electric shocks. In her last session in the metal chair, alligator clips were attached to her toe and her lip. The voltage was sufficient enough to melt the enamel on her front teeth.
As bad as this is, it is no longer considered torture. These days, this is merely "abuse."

I'm astounded and take aback at the things which are no longer torture.


Squawker said:
The point of the post was to put things into perspective. You don't know what information the military has discovered by administering the interrogation methods use by our troops.
Do you have any citations for the effectiveness of torture/abuse?

Squawker said:
This Liberal rhetoric about "We should be better than they are"...
When did the idea that America was a civilized nation of laws, morals and decency become a part of "Liberal rhetoric?"

Squawker said:
This Liberal rhetoric about "We should be better than they are" might get our people killed.
Many things that arer a part of as free society can "get our people killed." However, we have determined that liberty and a free society are more valuable than life. Hence we adhere to laws and are a nation of laws and decency.

Squawker said:
If they need to use a two by four side their head to get them to talk then so be it.
But does this inhumane and un-American sort of activity even produce the desired results?

Squawker said:
They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one.
Actually, according to various treaties that we've ratified, we do have such obligations. Unless, of course, you're in favor of turning America into liars and oath-breakers who don't keep their word as well.
 

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Guantanamo evidence is suspect, admits FBI

By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
23 March 2005



The value of intelligence obtained from Guantanamo Bay detainees has been cast into further doubt, with the release of new parts of a 2004 FBI memorandum that describe information extracted by coercive means as "suspect at best.

 

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FBI's complaints about prisoner torture ignored
December 8, 2004
FBI agents saw US soldiers mistreating terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in 2002 - more than a year before the prison abuse scandal broke in Iraq, a confidential letter from a senior counter-terrorism expert reveals.
...T.J.Harrington, deputy assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division...
...Mr Harrington said the military was using "interrogation strategies we not only advised against, but questioned in terms of effectiveness" and that the military often was "producing information that was not reliable".
"I voiced concerns that the intelligence produced was nothing more than what FBI got using simple investigative techniques [that did not involve violence]," he wrote.



pdf of Mr Harrington's comments
 

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When did the idea that America was a civilized nation of laws, morals and decency become a part of "Liberal rhetoric?"
Did I say that?
But does this inhumane and un-American sort of activity even produce the desired results?
Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you? I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story from the UK. Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill? Gossip is of no value and like I said, might get people killed. Liberals seem to have no conscious thought that they are responsible for deaths, just as if they had a rifle in their hand and pulled the trigger.
 
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from the Air War College on interrogation techniques

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-comm.htm#interrogation

The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.
 

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Squawker said:
Did I say that?
You called the idea that "We [the US] should be better than they [terrorists] are" "[t]his Liberal rhetoric."

Squawker said:
Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you?
Since the specific situation you mentioned - "a two by four side their head to get them to talk" - was a hypothetical one, I'm not sure how I could be expected to have first hand knowledge of it.

Squawker said:
I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story for the UK.
Good for you.
There're more sources than just that one. I've even provided some more here.

Squawker said:
Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill?
Who are the "you people?" And what does it take, in your mind, for something to leave "the rumor mill?"
 

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Squawker said:
Did I say that?
Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you? I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story from the UK. Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill? Gossip is of no value and like I said, might get people killed. Liberals seem to have no conscious thought that they are responsible for deaths, just as if they had a rifle in their hand and pulled the trigger.
Most of the reason I firmly believe there is abuse occurring at Gitmo comes from the released FBI memos. Not from any rumor mill and not necessarily from any media, British or otherwise.
 

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I am sure that real torture isn't effective. I do not consider what our troops do is torture. We have some isolated cases that the media and Liberals make a big to-do over. They paint the entire Gitmo and Abu Ghraib prisons as one big torture chamber on the level of Hitler and the Nazis. That is what I object to. This was the report from CNN in 2004. Hardly the scandal the Liberals and the media have built it up to be.
Source
 

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Squawker said:
I am sure that real torture isn't effective.
Out of curiosity, what do you consider "real torture?"
Do you share the opinion of the White House that things like thumbscrews, red-hotpokers and electrical shocks are not torture?
What about mere beatings? Does being beaten while bound constitute torture for you Squawk?

Squawker said:
I do not consider what our troops do is torture. We have some isolated cases that the media and Liberals make a big to-do over.
Which category does the FBI fall into, Liberals or "the media?"

Squawker said:
This was the report from CNN in 2004. Hardly the scandal the Liberals and the media have built it up to be.
Source
This references what I have already provided a direct link to - Mr. Harrington's correspondence.
I can't help but note that this is not the entirety of the incidences that have been cause for concern.


Frankly, I'm flabbergasted and incredibly concerned that many of the traditional "tortures" (like what is referenced in the OP) are now no longer considered torture.
Perhaps I'm just too old-fashioned?
 

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Squawker said:
If they need to use a two by four side their head to get them to talk then so be it. If you are willing to pay the attorneys fees for all these people to have a trial, have at it. They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one. They have no right to the same treatment a US citizen would get.
This is a prime example of who you are, this is your "mission statement." Good job!

I think you need a lesson in being an American? The 6th Amendment in my country says:
Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
This applies to EVERYONE in the USA, not just citizens.

You don't like this amendment? Go get it changed through the process. Otherwise you'll have to live with people being treated fairly in America.

Anyone who thinks "They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one." has some real issues to deal with, at least if he/she wants to be an American. If someone believes "They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one." then they are not supporting America, our values and our Constitution, and that is the 100% absolute truth....so no amount of squawking will change the truth....
 
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vandree said:
I am completely missing your point. Nobody here is justifying the acts of the terrorists.
All three things I mentioned were given an excuse in the mainstream media.

accusation of flushing a Koran...excuse for causing a riot...

because we're at war with Iraq...excuse for beheading...

because we are the land of capitalism & free enterprise...excuse for 9/11..

These acts have been justified with excuses.

We have been accused of perpetrating the same crimes as Nazis, Pol Pot, Soviet gulags, etc. These comparisons aren't even close. Yet, they are accepted. & for Durbin's apology...he only apologized for offending people; not for the crude & inaccurate comparison he made in his statement. If Nazi prison camps & Soviet gulags are the standard then we have a long way to go. This is the comparison made by a liberal democrat to discredit our war effort. Now suddenly when a conservative wants to make a comparison to justify our effort it's not fair. You people make me freakin' sick. We should pull our troops out Gitmo & bomb the place with all those detainees still there & heck, take out the rest of Cuba with it. Then the Nazi/Soviet gulag comparison might have some credibility.
 
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