Real Torture.

[Simon W. Moon]

Would you please be so very kind as to provide links to these things being used in the manners you say they were?

All three things I mentioned were given an excuse in the mainstream media.

accusation of flushing a Koran...excuse for causing a riot...

because we're at war with Iraq...excuse for beheading...

because we are the land of capitalism & free enterprise...excuse for 9/11..

Much appreciated, thanks in advance.

These acts have been justified with excuses.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Would you please be so very kind as to provide links to these things being used in the manners you say they were?



Much appreciated, thanks in advance.

These acts have been justified with excuses.

No reason to thank me...because unless you've been in a coma for the past couple years there's absolutely no reason to provide links.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

No reason to thank me...because unless you've been in a coma for the past couple years there's absolutely no reason to provide links.

I thought you were interested in debate.
My bad.
I didn't realize that you merely wanted to post unsubstantiated ranting.

 

[Squawker]

Simon said.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider "real torture?"

Nothing that involves a woman for one. Hmmm, real torture. Putting me in a cage with Freedom69. :doh Just kidding.

Do you share the opinion of the White House that things like thumbscrews, red-hotpokers and electrical shocks are not torture?

I expect that would be listed that way for prosecution and liable purposes. I would consider that torture, but even if the rules allow it there is no evidence that our troops participated in it.

What about mere beatings? Does being beaten while bound constitute torture for you squawk?

A social worker in Maine murdered a 5 year old child by wrapping 60 feet of duct tape around her in a high chair in the basement. I could live with beating up a terrorist who just killed my buddy. Yup, sure could.

Which category does the FBI fall into, Lioberals or "the media?"

We have no liberals in the FBI? I sure am glad to hear that because they might file a false report that Dan Rather could exploit.

This references what I have already provided a direct link to - Mr. Harrington's correspondence.
I can't help but note that this is not the entirety of the incidences that have been cause for concern.

What is your point in doing so?

Frankly, I'm flabbergasted and incredibly concerned that many of the traditional "tortures" (like what is referenced in the OP) are now no longer considered torture.
Perhaps I'm just too old-fashioned?

I don’t think so. My father and maybe yours would have kicked their ass and thought nothing of it. That was the back in the day when men were men.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I could live with beating up a terrorist who just killed my buddy. Yup, sure could.

As that may be... But does it constitute torture?

We have no liberals in the FBI?

Are you trying to imply that the FBI is only concerned about the various goings on merely because it has liberals in it (as opposed to having legitmate causes of concern)?

My father and maybe yours would have kicked their ass and thought nothing of it. That was the back in the day when men were men.

I am a man today.
Kicking someone's ass implies a fight. Beating someone who's bound and prone is not a fight. Beating up the defenseless is unmanly.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I thought you were interested in debate.
My bad.
I didn't realize that you merely wanted to post unsubstantiated ranting.

"Large-scale hog producers are a greater threat to the United States and U.S. democracy than Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network."
-- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., environmental activist, as quoted from The Des Moines Register.

http://www.youdontsay.org/What2002.htm

Some how RFK thinks capitalism is worse than a terrorist network.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking to Israel Army Radio, Michael Berg said Rumsfeld bears most of the responsibility for his son's death.

"I very definitely do hold the Department of Defense, the FBI, the Bush administration and especially Donald Rumsfeld responsible," Michael Berg said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/11/iraq/main616842.shtml

Still haven't figured out why this is Rummy's fault. I guess because he's our Secretary of Defense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Washington Post) (5/16) - Newsweek apologized yesterday for an inaccurate report on the treatment of detainees that triggered several days of rioting in Afghanistan and other countries in which at least 15 people died. (Newsweek is owned by the Washington Post.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/15/AR2005051500605.html

If their false story wouldn't have been the reason there would have been no need for an apology.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

First, let me thank you for taking the time to participate. I do appreciate it. I know that it does take some work to carry on a dialogue with those who don't see the world the same way. Yet, this is part of our obligations as Americans. We must maintain these sorts of dialogues in the arena of ideas.

"Large-scale hog producers are a greater threat to the United States and U.S. democracy than Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network."
-- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., environmental activist, as quoted from The Des Moines Register.
http://www.youdontsay.org/What2002.htm
Some how RFK thinks capitalism is worse than a terrorist network.

You seem to be making some rather large stretches. This doesn't seem to be an example of the MSM saying "because we are the land of capitalism & free enterprise [is an] excuse for 9/11."
Perhaps you could explain how RFKjr = MSM and how "larg scale hog producers" = "the land of capitalism & free enterprise."
It'd also be handy if you could explain how bitching about the enviromental impact of hog farms is tied in to 9-11.

Speaking to Israel Army Radio, Michael Berg said Rumsfeld bears most of the responsibility for his son's death.
"I very definitely do hold the Department of Defense, the FBI, the Bush administration and especially Donald Rumsfeld responsible," Michael Berg said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/11/iraq/main616842.shtml
Still haven't figured out why this is Rummy's fault. I guess because he's our Secretary of Defense.

How does Michael Berg = MSM?
Perhaps Mr. Berg was referring to something more specific than the war in Iraq, like perhaps he holds these parties responsible for creating the impression that Iraq was largely stable and secure area? It's hard to say just what exactly Mr. Berg is referring to here. (Personally, I find The headless Mr. Berg to be responsible for his own fate. It's his own fault he thought Iraq was a safe and secure area that he could wander around. Did you know he didn't even know any Arabic?)
But still, I have trouble seeing the reasoning you use to render Mr. Berg the equivalent of the MSM.
Please explain how Berg = MSM in your mind.

(Washington Post) (5/16) - Newsweek apologized yesterday for an inaccurate report on the treatment of detainees that triggered several days of rioting in Afghanistan and other countries in which at least 15 people died. (Newsweek is owned by the Washington Post.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/15/AR2005051500605.html
If their false story wouldn't have been the reason there would have been no need for an apology.

So, was the " accusation of flushing a Koran" what sparked the riot or not?
Does this really justify the riot or merely describe what set these people off?
The word justify carries some denotations and connotations that aren't really fulfilled by what's in this article.
Perhaps you meant to use a different word than justify?

 

[vandree]

We have some isolated cases that the media and Liberals make a big to-do over.

Isolated? Read the documents here . They are all FBI, Defense Department, Navy, Army documents, so no liberal bias in them

 

[Pacridge]

Isolated? Read the documents here . They are all FBI, Defense Department, Navy, Army documents, so no liberal bias in them

You're right it's not isolated. There seems to be three arguments going on here. It's not happening. If it is happening it's isolated cases, blown out of portion by liberals, done by individuals acting without the permission of the administration. If it is happening and the admin. has signed off on it, then it's not that bad and we're still treating them better than they treat people, so it's alright. Actually there's a forth, if it is happening we need to do it because whatever we have to do to get the information out of these guys to save lives. Kind of an ends justifies the means attitude.

None of these arguments make any sense to me. I don't think at this point theres any real question as to whether or not we're engaging in these activities. The documents detailing this haven't come from liberal biased sources. And I don't believe it's isolated or at the dismay of the administration. The Attorney General's gone out of his way to approve these activity. As far as "we're still treating them better" this may be the excuse I find the most disturbing. We're America, we're proud and above all we do the right thing. Torture is never the right thing. And I believe the theres a very real possibility that the info we do get from torture is inaccurate.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

First, let me thank you for taking the time to participate. I do appreciate it. I know that it does take some work to carry on a dialogue with those who don't see the world the same way. Yet, this is part of our obligations as Americans. We must maintain these sorts of dialogues in the arena of ideas.

You seem to be making some rather large stretches. This doesn't seem to be an example of the MSM saying "because we are the land of capitalism & free enterprise [is an] excuse for 9/11."
Perhaps you could explain how RFKjr = MSM and how "larg scale hog producers" = "the land of capitalism & free enterprise."
It'd also be handy if you could explain how bitching about the enviromental impact of hog farms is tied in to 9-11.

It was just a quick quote I found. I have to admit that my use of MSM may not be entirely accurate. I suppose I simply equated MSM with liberals & liberalism in general. It is the loud voice of seamingly unreasonable thought that floods our MSM. This quote in general shows a typical view that American capitalism is a much bigger evil than terror networks. Last night Karl Rove hit the nail on the head with his statements.


How does Michael Berg = MSM?
Perhaps Mr. Berg was referring to something more specific than the war in Iraq, like perhaps he holds these parties responsible for creating the impression that Iraq was largely stable and secure area? It's hard to say just what exactly Mr. Berg is referring to here. (Personally, I find The headless Mr. Berg to be responsible for his own fate. It's his own fault he thought Iraq was a safe and secure area that he could wander around. Did you know he didn't even know any Arabic?)
But still, I have trouble seeing the reasoning you use to render Mr. Berg the equivalent of the MSM.
Please explain how Berg = MSM in your mind.

Berg doesn't equal MSM. It was the MSM that covered this to the point where it became accepted as the gospel. I too find the beheaded Berg responsible for himself. I also find the terrorists responsible for their actions. There is no amount of reasoning they can muster to justify beheading a civilian because they don't like our government or our military. However, with stories like this the MSM made sure that blame was shifted from the terrorists to the U.S. & it's leaders.

So, was the " accusation of flushing a Koran" what sparked the riot or not?
Does this really justify the riot or merely describe what set these people off?
The word justify carries some denotations and connotations that aren't really fulfilled by what's in this article.
Perhaps you meant to use a different word than justify?

Yes, you're right...to a point. It is still questionable whether or not the accusations caused the riots. But, the MSM has been rather consistent in their over all view that these types of things don't happen unless we have some how provoked them. This may not have been the best article to convey that.

This over all view is being confirmed right now with the dems calling for Rove's resignation when his statements were not only true but not nearly as damaging as Durbin's. I know some might think that the MSM is just reporting but on certain issues they have crossed the line from reporting to advocacy.

"Where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester'." -- John Stossel, in comments to CNSNews.com.

"I would freely admit that on [global warming] we have crossed the boundary from news reporting to advocacy." -- Time science editor Charles Alexander, in comments at a Smithsonian Institute conference.

I would also say this is true on other issues as well.

 

[Pacridge]

This over all view is being confirmed right now with the dems calling for Rove's resignation when his statements were not only true but not nearly as damaging as Durbin's. I know some might think that the MSM is just reporting but on certain issues they have crossed the line from reporting to advocacy.

So when the news outlets reported members of the GOP were calling for Durbins resignation they were being advocates?

 

[Squawker]

None of these arguments make any sense to me. I don't think at this point theres any real question as to whether or not we're engaging in these activities. The documents detailing this haven't come from liberal biased sources. And I don't believe it's isolated or at the dismay of the administration. The Attorney General's gone out of his way to approve these activity. As far as "we're still treating them better" this may be the excuse I find the most disturbing. We're America, we're proud and above all we do the right thing. Torture is never the right thing. And I believe the theres a very real possibility that the info we do get from torture is inaccurate.

I think what myself and others have been trying to point out is that the liberals idea of torture doesn't make it torture. No one is advocating cutting off a hand or cutting a tongue out. It really distresses me that people in our own country are so willing to give out information that Al Jezeera uses to perpetuate hate for our country. We all know the power of sound bites. Those who hate killing and war should be the first in line to condemn this.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

No one is advocating cutting off a hand or cutting a tongue out.

It's not clear that this constitutes torture these days. Team Bush has raised the bar pretty high. These're prob'ly just examples of abuse.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

This quote in general shows a typical view that American capitalism is a much bigger evil than terror networks.

Actually it doesn't. It discusses the effects of large-scale hog farming. Last I checked, large-scale hog farming ≠ American capitalism.

Perhaps you're misreading too much into these sorts of things.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Actually it doesn't. It discusses the effects of large-scale hog farming. Last I checked,[/color] large-scale hog farming ≠ American capitalism.

Perhaps you're misreading too much into these sorts of things.

Of all things you latched onto large scale hog farming. So explain what is so wrong with large scale hog farming as compared to...well...small scale hog farming? & don't give me some environmental bull.

Plus, I take it you agree with everything else...?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Of all things you latched onto large scale hog farming. So explain what is so wrong with large scale hog farming as compared to...well...small scale hog farming? & don't give me some environmental bull.

Ummm, what constitutes environmental bull? The environmental impact of certain of these practices is the issue.

Plus, I take it you agree with everything else...?

You may take it any way you please if you like, but I don't agree with everything else. Only so much time in a day. I have to pick my battles.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

So when the news outlets reported members of the GOP were calling for Durbins resignation they were being advocates?

Who was calling for Durbin's resignation? Names? Were they reporters or talking heads?

NOTE: that story died with Karl Roves statement...which, by the way, was true unlike Durbin's statement.

Remember, Trent Lott was forced out of his position for a lot less than what Durbin said.

Where's the balance? Sometimes advocacy is pushing a story until they get the results they want. They drop a story if they want to forget it. Of course they have to report some of these things, but what do the talking heads & pundits say? Generally it's that the GOP is crazy & rabid & going overboard & trying to censor free speech. BUT, when it fits their agenda they'll be all over it like Micheal Moore on a double quarter pounder with cheese.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

...Karl Roves statement...which, by the way, was true ...

If it's so true, then you should have no trouble finding at least two liberals who wanted to "...offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

Or perhaps it was just more bullshit from a politico- porn for the neocon's outer party.

 

[Squawker]

Aw, come on Simon. Don't you remember all the school teachers having classes studying the Koran so their students could "understand" why this happened? All you have to do is read the anti-war threads here and on other forum to see the truth of Rove's statement. Why do they hate us threads are all over the net. Democrats what him to resign over this? What a friggin joke. That is what liberals turned the party into -- one big joke.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Aw, come on Simon. Don't you remember all the school teachers having classes studying the Koran so their students could "understand" why this happened?

I'm a little bit removed from the school scene these days.
While understanding your enemy has been recognized as an essential step for warfare for millenia offering therapy has not.
However, I doubt that the Koran has the answers that are sought for 'why.'

All you have to do is read the anti-war threads here and on other forum to see the truth of Rove's statement.

I'm searching for 'therapy' here on this board now.
Nope, not a single instance of anyone advocating therapy for al Qaeda.

I don't know why there's any difficulty for you or the Fonz to recognize a hyperbole as a hyperbole.
Rove was just talking out of his ass. It's bullshit porn for the neocon's outer party.

 

[Squawker]

I'm searching for 'therapy' here on this board now.

:afraid: Can't help ya there Simon.

 

[Pacridge]

Aw, come on Simon. Don't you remember all the school teachers having classes studying the Koran so their students could "understand" why this happened? All you have to do is read the anti-war threads here and on other forum to see the truth of Rove's statement. Why do they hate us threads are all over the net. Democrats what him to resign over this? What a friggin joke. That is what liberals turned the party into -- one big joke.

A teacher trying to inform their students about the mind set of the terrorist by examining what the Koran says is a far cry from saying you want to give aid and comfort or "therapy” to the terrorist.

 

[Squawker]

Earlier this week Sen. **** Durbin, D-Ill., apologized (NOT)after being hit with a chorus of attacks from Republicans about comments in which he compared detainee treatment at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to the actions of Nazis and other repressive regimes.
Rove, the architect behind President Bush's election victories, on Wednesday night told a gathering of the New York Conservative Party that "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." Conservatives, he said, "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war."
He added that groups linked to the Democratic Party made the mistake of calling for "moderation and restraint" after the terrorist attacks.
Source

Durbin compares our troops to Nazi’s (information that Al Jezeera used) and Rove compares Liberals to wimps. Hey folks, can we get real here? Liberals want Rove to resign, but Durbin gets a pat on the back. You don’t see anything wrong with this picture? Who is splitting the country down the middle?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Durbin compares our troops to Nazi’s (information that Al Jezeera used) and Rove compares Liberals to wimps. Hey folks, can we get real here? Liberals want Rove to resign, but Durbin gets a pat on the back. You don’t see anything wrong with this picture? Who is splitting the country down the middle?

Partisan Politicians?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

:afraid: Can't help ya there Simon.

Pretty clever