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Real Torture.

Arthur Fonzarelli said:
Who was calling for Durbin's resignation? Names? Were they reporters or talking heads?

NOTE: that story died with Karl Roves statement...which, by the way, was true unlike Durbin's statement.

Remember, Trent Lott was forced out of his position for a lot less than what Durbin said.

Where's the balance? Sometimes advocacy is pushing a story until they get the results they want. They drop a story if they want to forget it. Of course they have to report some of these things, but what do the talking heads & pundits say? Generally it's that the GOP is crazy & rabid & going overboard & trying to censor free speech. BUT, when it fits their agenda they'll be all over it like Micheal Moore on a double quarter pounder with cheese.

There's several GOP groups who called for his resignation. There a couple petitions still gathering signatures. Do a goggle search and you'll find some you can sign.

Durbin read an FBI report and noted, quite correctly, the abused detailed in the report was awful. He said if I read this report to you and didn't tell you who did it you'd think it was some awful and abusive regime. It's not it's us doing it. We shouldn't be doing these things to people. It smacks in the face of everything our great nation stands for. What part of that isn't true?

Rove said the left wanted to give therapy to the terrorists. What part of that is true? Can you find any liberal group asked that we do that?
 
The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.
Sure, lets trust the UN and some unidentified source. I wonder how many little girls they raped today. :gunsmilie
 
http://www.worldtribunal.org/main/


Testimony on War Crimes and the Recent Situation in Iraq
by Dahr Jamail



In May of 2004 I was interviewing a man who had just been released from Abu Ghraib. Like so many I interviewed from various US military detention facilities who’d been tortured horrifically, he still managed to maintain his sense of humor.

He began laughing when telling of how US soldiers made him beat other prisoners. He laughed because he told me he had been beaten himself prior to this, and was so tired that all he could do to beat other detained Iraqis was to lift his arm and let it drop on the other men.

Later in the same interview when telling of another story he laughed again and said, “The Americans brought electricity to my ass before they brought it to my house.”

Ali Shalal Abbas was lives in the Al-Amiriyah district of Baghdad. So many of his neighbors were detained that friends urged him to go to the nearby US base to try to get answers. Since he worked for civil administration, he went three times to get answers as to why so many innocent people were being detained during US home raids.

On the fourth time he was detained himself, despite not being charged with any crime. This was September 13th, 2003. Within two days he was transferred from a military base to Abu Ghraib, where he was held for over three months.

“The minute I got there, the suffering began,” said Abbas, “I asked him for water, and he said after the investigation I would get some. He accused me of so many things and asked me so many questions. Among them he said I hated Christians.”

He was forced to strip naked shortly after arriving, and remained that way for most of his stay in the prison. “My hands were enlarged because there was no blood because they cuffed them so tight. My head was covered with the sack, and they fastened my right hand to a pole with handcuffs. They made me stand on my toes to clip me to it.”

Abbas said soldiers doused him in cold water while holding him under a fan, and oftentimes, “They put on a loudspeaker, put the speakers on my ears and said, “Shut Up, **** **** ****!”

Treatment included holding a loaded gun to his head to make him not cry out in pain as his hand-ties were tightened.

He was not provided water and food for extended periods of time. Sleep deprivation via the aforementioned method was the norm.

Abbas said that at one point, “Two men came, one a foreigner and one a translator. He asked me who I was. I said I’m a human being. They told me, ‘We are going to cut your head off and send you to hell, we will take you to Guantanamo.’”

A female soldier told him, “Our aim is to put you in hell so you would tell the truth. These are the orders we have from our superiors, to turn your lives into hell.”

Another time one of the guards said it was time for “celebrations.”

“They made some of the detainees strip naked and threw cold water on them,” said Abbas, “And made them run and smash their faces against the walls while the guard was whistling.”

Other treatment included, as Abbas added, “They put us on top of each other while we were naked. They made us lay on top of each other naked as if it was sex, and beat us with a broom.”

A female guard told the male detainees that the penis of a dog was longer than theirs, and for Abbas and several other detainees she made them strip naked, tied their hands tightly behind their backs, threw them on the ground, and made them say, ‘I am a donkey’ over and over while they were forced to lick the ground.

Other treatment included having their food thrown in the trash in front of them and beating them on their genitals. Abbas added, “They **** on us, used dogs against us, used electricity and starved us.

He also said, “They cut my hair into strips like an Indian. They cut my mustache, put a plate in my hand, and made me go beg from the prisoners, as if I was a beggar.”

Desecration of his religion was, of course, included as part of their humiliation.

Abbas was made to fast during the first day of Eid, the breaking of the fast of Ramadan, which is haram (forbidden).

He told me that one day a female soldier stripped naked and other soldiers held his eyes open to make him look at her. Sometimes at night when he would read his Koran, he had to hold it in the hallway for light. “Soldiers would walk by and kick the Holy Koran, and sometimes they would try to **** on it or wipe **** on it.”


Other Iraqis, such as Sadiq Zoman, didn’t have it as good as Abbas. 55 year-old Zoman, detained from his home in Kirkuk in a raid by US soldiers that produced no weapons, was taken to a police office in Kirkuk, the Kirkuk Airport Detention Center, the Tikrit Airport Detention Center and then the 28th Combat Support Hospital, where he was treated by Dr. Michael Hodges, a US army medic. Dr. Hodges’ medical report listed the primary diagnoses of Zoman’s condition as hypoxic brain injury (brain damage caused by lack of oxygen) “with persistent vegetative state,” myocardial infarction (heart attack), and heat stroke.”

Thus, Zoman was dropped off at the General Hospital in Tikrit by US soldiers after being held for one month. He was in a coma when he was dropped off with a copy of the medical report written by Lt. Col. Michael Hodges. His last name was listed as his first name on the report, despite the fact that all of Zomans’ identification papers were taken during the raid on his home. Thus, it took his family weeks to locate him in the hospital.

The same medical report did not mention the fact that the back of Zomans’ head was bashed in, or that he had electrical burn marks on the bottoms of his feet and genitals, or why he had lash marks across his back and chest


... sounds to me like real torture
 
vandree said:
http://www.worldtribunal.org/main/

... sounds to me like real torture


I agree. It also sounds like it is straight out of the Al Qaeda handbook.



A directive lists one mission as "spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy."

Islamic governments have never and will never be established
through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils. They are
established as they [always] have been -- -
by pen and gun
by word and bullet
by tongue and teeth


It is a 140 page read. I have not completed a study of it yet but it is a bit scary so far.
 
akyron said:
I agree. It also sounds like it is straight out of the Al Qaeda handbook.
Just like the invasion of Iraq was.
We've done pretty much what aQ et al said we would do.
As Mr. Atta saw it, Hussein was just a stooge set up to justify american intervention in the ME.
 
I would bet anything that the people who decided to approve the torture of detainees never read Chapter 17 of that manual, that details the interrogation and questioning process.


Notice that they say basically that the torture usually (in the Arab countries) escalates, so they point out that if you start giving out info when the pain is still bearable, the torturte will not stop. Actually it intensifies, because the torturers think the detainee knows more.... The manual also points out that you can easily make things up.... So how realible can any info that comes from torture really be?
 
It's not, it seems to me that the administration gets its jollies seeing these people tortured. That's an unsubstantiated opinion, I know, but it makes sense if you think about it.
 
Still with this garbage? This word "torture" is used awfully loosely. I could show you some pictures of rape and torture rooms that might make you realize how rediculous these claims are. Any soldier that caused any abuse that happened (or happens) is disciplined. His discipline will vary from reassignment to NJP to Court Martial.

By your use of the word "torture", Police Officers also practice this. Police Officers interrogate the criminals or suspects by yelling, screaming, pushing their heads, handling them, lieing to them, shoving them, sleep deprivation, making them hungry and thirsty and use food as a reward for talking.

There is a line that has to be crossed before it can be called torture. At most, some soldiers might have been abusive and they were dealt with. I doubt you'd get that if you were imprisoned in Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Germany, France, North Korea, any place in Africa, Russia, South America, etc.........
 
You're still not getting it. We're supposed to be held to a higher standard than them!
You're using the "But he got to!" argument, and it really just doesn't apply here. I honestly don't give a **** what they've done, I'm talking about what we've done, and what we've done is completely unacceptable.
 
No, you're not getting it. We do hold a higher standard. That is why when one screws up, he is disciplined. Get the **** over it.
 
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Yes, and when it happens enough to show an institutional problem, it should be addressed, not denied.
 
I'm going to say this as a Moderator to both of you because I've seen both of you do this.

I'm really proud to see that you have found ways around the filtering system. It's really cool. Putting a space in the middle of the F word. That's some cool stuff. In the basement, I won't care. In the open forums. Lay off please. Thank you. :2razz:
 
I apologize, I'm just making sure he knows what explative I'm saying. I'll do f*** or s*** from here on. Sorry dude.
 
galenrox there is no hypocrisy. What GySgt said is that the US soldiers who have done things that weren't approved by the United States were dealt with; and that the integrative process used by police is almost the same as that used by the military for comparison. As to the conspiracy theory most conspiracy theories are somewhat "underground" because if there was enough evidence for the theory it would have definitely gone public.
 
And I understand that, but it happens enough that it implies an institutional problem which needs to be adressed and fixed, not ignored as being just a product of a few bad apples, because this s*** is hurting us a lot more than it's helping us.
 
GySgt said:
Still with this garbage? This word "torture" is used awfully loosely. I could show you some pictures of rape and torture rooms that might make you realize how rediculous these claims are. Any soldier that caused any abuse that happened (or happens) is disciplined. His discipline will vary from reassignment to NJP to Court Martial.



I believe you believe what you're saying. However I think there's stuff going on that equates to torture. Not all of it directly connected to the military. The CIA uses a Gulfstream V turbojet with tail number N379P to transport suspected terrorists. Rides on this aircraft have been detailed and they're anything but pleasant. Once at your destination the unpleasantness continues. Now the reports about these activities have mostly come from released suspected terrorist so I take those reports as being less then creditable. But there are reports from airport employee that back these reports up. Not to mention the releases are able to show burn and other physical evidence of torture. So I find it hard to discount all of the reports. I don't think people are burning their own genitals.



GySgt said:
By your use of the word "torture", Police Officers also practice this. Police Officers interrogate the criminals or suspects by yelling, screaming, pushing their heads, handling them, lieing to them, shoving them, sleep deprivation, making them hungry and thirsty and use food as a reward for talking..........




Some of that’s true some of it isn't. Least not in my state- Oregon. I know because I worked in Law enforcement for 16yrs. Laying your hands on a suspect is not allowed. There was a time sleep dep. was fairly widely used. But the courts have made that almost impossible now. People have to be rep'ed by counsel within a certain amount of time. Once a lawyer enters the picture the rest of what you're describing is out the window.



Plus it's illegal to hold someone in closed custody and not supply them with food, water or the use of a restroom. I forget how the law reads. But basically if the suspect is in your custody at meal time you have to feed them.



GySgt said:
There is a line that has to be crossed before it can be called torture. At most, some soldiers might have been abusive and they were dealt with. I doubt you'd get that if you were imprisoned in Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Germany, France, North Korea, any place in Africa, Russia, South America, etc.........




I spent a weekend in the Kagawa jail not far from Tokyo. It's a long story, a fence, a truck and a bunch of cattle. But I can tell you the Japanese do not treat their prisoners very well. Not a pleasant experience.
 
jeesh, I can assume. I'd like to hear that story sometime.
 
When capturing the enemy, a common practice is to "sandbag" them. We place sand bags over their heads for two reasons. 1) We want to disorient them so they can not plan escape attempts or know their where abouts during transportation. 2) After a few hours, they become extremely hot and when the sand bag is removed for water purposes, they are more susceptable to talk to keep out of the sand bag. The information they often give us involves undetonated IED's and safe houses.

Since our own people started crying "torture" about every toothache in Army Gitmo and the perverted embarrassing Army National Guard Reserve circus act of Abu Ghraib, we are not allowed to do this. We can not even blind fold them when the press is around.

By displaying the acts to the world and voicing that the institution is a mess instead of identifying the "isolated" incidents for what they are and moving on, attitudes like yours has made our jobs harder and dangerous. Way to do what the enemy wants you to do.


Gandhi....were you really proud of us or were you being sarcastic?
 
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GySgt said:
By displaying the acts to the world and voicing that the institution is a mess instead of identifying the "isolated" incidents for what they are and moving on...
Well, the redefinition of torture so that it no longer includes traditional stand-bys as bamboo under the fingernails and electrodes on the balls kind of freaked some people out.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Well, the redefinition of torture so that it no longer includes traditional stand-bys as bamboo under the fingernails and electrodes on the balls kind of freaked some people out.

Yeah, it really freak out the guys who ended up with electrodes attached to their ball sack.
 
Pacridge said:
Yeah, it really freak out the guys who ended up with electrodes attached to their ball sack.
I'm not saying that Americans have done these things. I'm just saying that the door to do these sorts of things was unlocked.
 
Pacridge said:
Yeah, it really freak out the guys who ended up with electrodes attached to their ball sack.
I can imagine!

And Gvt, we are really proud of the soldiers, and understand the majority don't participate in torture, I have buddies out there and the soldiers have my undying support.

But this torture **** has got to go. It's really only making things worse, and so I find the only way to support the soldiers is to be opposed to the torture, because it causes more people to hate us, and thus want to kill YOU
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I'm not saying that Americans have done these things. I'm just saying that the door to do these sorts of things was unlocked.

If we haven't done these things how those guys get burns on their genitals and bottom of their feet? They do it to themselves?
 
These terrorists are determined enough to kill themselves just to kill Americans, because their hate is so strong. I am sure that they wouldn't think twice about burning their balls or feet; to cause an uprising and unrest among Americans to fuel the idea that we are just as bad as the people we are fighting.
 
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