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Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?[W:349

Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

Bob Blaylock said:
As has already been said in this thread…

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If the photographer operated a studio, and the couple came in wanting to be photographed there, on the photographer's turf, under his terms, that would be one thing.

Photographing a wedding isn't the same thing as photographing people in one's studio, or in another non-ceremonial context. A wedding photographer is a participant in the wedding. And where the event in question is not a genuine marriage at all, but a sick, disgusting mockery of marriage, I think anyone with true moral character has every reason and right to object to being forced to participate therein, and I think that no one should ever be forced into such a participation in something so foul.
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I appreciate your views and respectfully disagree as I've outlined above.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

johndylan1 said:
A recent state supreme court decision declared that a Christian wedding photographer would be required to work for a gay couple, photographing their ceremony, despite the photographers having religious objections.

Does the first amendment freedom of religion, or even freedom of association (or in this case the implied right to not associate), have primacy over the equal rights amendment? or vice versa? and on what basis?
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There is no conflict of rights here. What you have is law that conflicts with rights. Your right to associate with whomever you please does not somehow end because you open a business. The issue here is that the state has no right to demand that I serve anyone. Discrimination is something that the state may not engage in. Individuals can discriminate, by right, all they want.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

CanadaJohn said:
He wasn't a "participant", he was a chronicler. To follow your logic, no religious person would ever be able to research and write a book about sin because to do so would be blatantly against their religious and moral values.

Ask yourself, are you less a man of religion because you participate in DP discussions with people of whom some are gay, some are adulterers, some are theives, some are pre-marital fornicators, etc.? Are you less a religious man because your church welcomes all these people into their services while you're praying to your God? If your job isn't "sinful" doing it for people who might be considered sinful in your religion doesn't make you equally sinful.
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That isn't even close to being an equal scenario.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

Fletch said:
There is no conflict of rights here. What you have is law that conflicts with rights. Your right to associate with whomever you please does not somehow end because you open a business. The issue here is that the state has no right to demand that I serve anyone. Discrimination is something that the state may not engage in. Individuals can discriminate, by right, all they want.
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Actually, what we have is the govt exercising its' legitimate power to regulate commerce
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

johndylan1 said:
A recent state supreme court decision declared that a Christian wedding photographer would be required to work for a gay couple, photographing their ceremony, despite the photographers having religious objections.

Does the first amendment freedom of religion, or even freedom of association (or in this case the implied right to not associate), have primacy over the equal rights amendment? or vice versa? and on what basis?
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Do you have a link you can provide covering this story? Is the photographer self-employed or an employee of a company?
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

Paschendale said:
As above, without knowing the exact facts of the case, it is quite likely that the photographer agreed to take pictures at the wedding, possibly received payment, and backed out. Otherwise there would be no damage and thus no cause to sue. Religious problems with homosexuality is not a defense against breach of contract. Copyright is really not an issue. It sounds like a contracts issue to me.
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Copyright content could be a defense. Being creative in pleading thing in the alternative is something that sometimes works whether you are on the plaintiff or defendant side. You kind of screw you client if you admit to a lawsuit without presenting any defense in the answer/grounds of defense even if they are caught dead to rights.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

CanadaJohn said:
Really? Why's that? Is it because it points out hypocricy?
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No. Bringing someone into a church to minister to them, and hopefully see them accept Christ is something totally different than participating in a gay wedding. Also, no, writing about sin is not the same thing as sinning. Two very different concepts.

When you write about sin, you are not a part of that sin, when you photograph a wedding, you ARE a part of that wedding.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

Paschendale said:
As above, without knowing the exact facts of the case, it is quite likely that the photographer agreed to take pictures at the wedding, possibly received payment, and backed out. Otherwise there would be no damage and thus no cause to sue. Religious problems with homosexuality is not a defense against breach of contract. Copyright is really not an issue. It sounds like a contracts issue to me.
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Check the link to the actual case that I posted yesterday.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

davidtaylorjr said:
No. Bringing someone into a church to minister to them, and hopefully see them accept Christ is something totally different than participating in a gay wedding. Also, no, writing about sin is not the same thing as sinning. Two very different concepts.

When you write about sin, you are not a part of that sin, when you photograph a wedding, you ARE a part of that wedding.
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Since when? That's just nonsense to advance a particular agenda.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

davidtaylorjr said:
That is not nonsense, that is fact.
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What's nonsense is trying to claim religious protection under the constitution in order not to photograph a wedding. What that does is trivialize and degrade the seriousness with which the exercise of religious freedom should be honored.

If this photographer took on the job to photograph a wedding and then found out the couple getting married was gay and chose not to take the job, then he got what he deserved in court. If he declined the job before agreeing, that may be a different and less troublesome story.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

CanadaJohn said:
What's nonsense is trying to claim religious protection under the constitution in order not to photograph a wedding. What that does is trivialize and degrade the seriousness with which the exercise of religious freedom should be honored.

If this photographer took on the job to photograph a wedding and then found out the couple getting married was gay and chose not to take the job, then he got what he deserved in court. If he declined the job before agreeing, that may be a different and less troublesome story.
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If I'm not mistaken, they DID decline and never took the job.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

davidtaylorjr said:
From what I understand, before.
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If it was before, and the photographer gave the excuse that it was because they were gay, that's just stupid - people in business have lots of excuses planned out for why they won't take on someone as a client.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

CanadaJohn said:
If it was before, and the photographer gave the excuse that it was because they were gay, that's just stupid - people in business have lots of excuses planned out for why they won't take on someone as a client.
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There is something to be said for honesty as well.....
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

johndylan1 said:
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ElanePhotoNMSCopinion.pdf
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It's a state Supreme Court ruling on a state law. Without reading the law, it is entirely possible that the law prohibits it. What would remain to be seen, is the Constitutionality of the law - in other words, can it co-exist with the US Constitution.

Generally the rule of thumb is that you have the right to do as you please until you infringe on someone else's rights. My right to extend my fist ends where your nose begins, so to speak. I don't think the case referenced reaches this standard.

It should be a lesson to photographers - tell them you're booked or that's the week of your vacation!
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

davidtaylorjr said:
There is something to be said for honesty as well.....
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Yeah, but why would you open yourself up to litigation like that?
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

CanadaJohn said:
Again, if you accept a business license from a secular society, you must live by the laws of that secular society. Perhaps the photographer should have advertised his bigotry on his flyers and front door so that unwelcomed customers could be forewarned before they enter his business and get insulted by him.
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We wouldn't want people to be insulted. We better just curb stomp peoples rights to make sure that doesn't happen. You don't want to serve that person? Well you can't insult him, so you're just going to be his servant if you like it or not.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

davidtaylorjr said:
There is something to be said for honesty as well.....
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Yes, to do otherwise is a sin - then again, God also instructed, judge not lest thy be judged theyself.
 
Re: Question: When rights conflict with one another, is there a primacy of rights?

Henrin said:
We wouldn't want people to be insulted. We better just curb stomp peoples rights to make sure that doesn't happen. You don't want to serve that person? Well you can't insult him, so you're just going to be his servant if you like it or not.
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Ever hear the business bible's number one commandment - "the customer's always right"?

You must also feel that this photographer could deny his services to someone of another religion or an atheist or agnostic since these people as well may not be living in the image of the faith you espouse.
 
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