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Question 2 for Christians

alphamale

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"Faith" means to hold something as true without proof. Why does God demand faith in Him? Why doesn't He just appear, do some incontrovertible miracles, proving He exists? Why the guessing game?
 

talloulou

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alphamale said:
"Faith" means to hold something as true without proof. Why does God demand faith in Him? Why doesn't He just appear, do some incontrovertible miracles, proving He exists? Why the guessing game?

Maybe it's that free will thing. If he appeared before you in all his glory you'd cower at his feet. Where's the fun in that? He wants you to have free will plus then if you're bad he can get his rocks off with all the punishment and damnation. 'Cause he's mean and hot tempered. Didn't you read the old testament?
 

Apostle13

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talloulou said:
Maybe it's that free will thing. If he appeared before you in all his glory you'd cower at his feet. Where's the fun in that? He wants you to have free will plus then if you're bad he can get his rocks off with all the punishment and damnation. 'Cause he's mean and hot tempered. Didn't you read the old testament?
God is laughing at you... He sees all your tomorrows... Best you chill.
 

cnredd

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Apostle13 said:
God is laughing at you... He sees all your tomorrows... Best you chill.
Wanna make God laugh?...

Tell him your future plans...
 

Apostle13

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cnredd said:
Wanna make God laugh?...

Tell him your future plans...
Thats too funny..:lol: And I thought I'd heard them all.
 

cnredd

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Apostle13 said:
Thats too funny..:lol: And I thought I'd heard them all.

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

"Cocaine is God's way of telling you that you have too much money." - Unknown
 

Mr. D

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talloulou said:
Maybe it's that free will thing. If he appeared before you in all his glory you'd cower at his feet. Where's the fun in that? He wants you to have free will plus then if you're bad he can get his rocks off with all the punishment and damnation. 'Cause he's mean and hot tempered. Didn't you read the old testament?

I love the "Free Will" sillyness! You have the free will choice to love me and obey me or burn in Hell! Car jackers give you the same free will choice. You can give me your car or have your brains on the pavement! :lol:

Do you ever think about what you believe? Oh I forgot, it's that faith thing!
:lol:
 

Rev.

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Here's a little challange for you...tell me when the first time the word "hell" appears in the Bible. Bonus points if you can tell me what the writer meant by that word.
 

cnredd

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Rev. said:
Here's a little challange for you...tell me when the first time the word "hell" appears in the Bible. Bonus points if you can tell me what the writer meant by that word.
Page one...

Writer dropped the ink and said "What the hell!!"...:cool:
 

Korimyr the Rat

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The English word "Hell" was merely a Christian attempt to adapt the Germanic goddess Hel and the name of her realm.
 

Rev.

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Korimyr the Rat said:
The English word "Hell" was merely a Christian attempt to adapt the Germanic goddess Hel and the name of her realm.

And the Hebrews had their own concept of hell. So if people want to accuse God of threatening people with hell, we ought to have an understanding of what exactly the Hebrews thought he meant by that and when those first "threats" were being made...and when you find the reference, pay attention to what exactly was going to be consumed by it...
 

Blue Collar Joe

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Rev. said:
And the Hebrews had their own concept of hell. So if people want to accuse God of threatening people with hell, we ought to have an understanding of what exactly the Hebrews thought he meant by that and when those first "threats" were being made...and when you find the reference, pay attention to what exactly was going to be consumed by it...

You are referencing the land fill, Gehenna. Hell is not a place where souls are physically tormented. It is the common grave, where there is no thought, nor pain, nothing.
The best way to describe it would be a dreamless sleep. You simply cease to exist.
Funny how you read these posts and can see who is actually wanting to ask a question and who would rather be insulting.
 

Captain America

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Faith is an psychological excercize to help ward off the fear of death. Many are indoctrinated into it at a very early age. Believe in Santa = Toys. Believe in God/Jesus/Allah/<fill in the blank> = no death.

The Santa one was much easier to believe in 'cause you could always find the toys under the tree. The heaven thing, takes more "faith."

I think pondering on the inevitabilty of death and the finality of it is a depressing thing to get stuck on. But Santa will make it all better. Whatever works for people to help them get over the reality of it all, is fine with me. Whatever gets you through the night is alright.
 

Rev.

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Blue Collar Joe said:
You are referencing the land fill, Gehenna. Hell is not a place where souls are physically tormented. It is the common grave, where there is no thought, nor pain, nothing.
The best way to describe it would be a dreamless sleep. You simply cease to exist.

Thank you!

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to qualify some of what you've said. Gehenna is a New Testament term first used by Jesus. It expanded on the teaching of the Jews up to that point.

The Jews used the term "shoel" which means "death" or "the grave." Both the righteous and the unrighteous went to "shoel" so any idea of hell being a place of punishment wasn't there. "Shoel" is morally neutral.

By using "Gehenna," Jesus added a new element to the idea of hell. Gehenna was a literal place on earth...a "land fill" as was said...where trash was burned and the flames never were extinguished. But also the bodies of some unrighteous people were also thrown there. So there is an idea of eternal seperation from God as the fate awaiting the unrighteous.

"Hades" was another New Testament word for hell and it closely resembles "shoel" as a place for the dead both good and bad.

"Tartaros" is the abyss of Hades which is a place of eternal torment. Peter used the word to describe where the fallen angels went who were cast out of heaven.

So what? Here's the point: the case had been made that free will isn't really free will because it's nothing more than the choice to do things God's way or go to hell. Yet we see free will in the Garden of Eden...what we do NOT see is God saying to Adam "If you eat this apple you will go to hell." There was never a threat of hell. Jesus was the first person to teach a concept of hell that even resembles our some 4,000 years after Adam. The word hell doesn't even appear in the Bible until Deuteronomy after 2,000 years of history. Bottom line: free will did not involve coercion in Eden. Free will really was free.

Blue Collar Joe said:
Funny how you read these posts and can see who is actually wanting to ask a question and who would rather be insulting.

You noticed that, too? :smile:
 

Rev.

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alphamale said:
"Faith" means to hold something as true without proof. Why does God demand faith in Him? Why doesn't He just appear, do some incontrovertible miracles, proving He exists? Why the guessing game?

He did.

2,000 years ago.
 

jamesrage

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Rev. said:
Here's a little challange for you...tell me when the first time the word "hell" appears in the Bible. Bonus points if you can tell me what the writer meant by that word.

It first appears in the old testament in Deuteronomy 32:22 in the king james version) and Matthew 5:22 in the NIV version.


Deuteronomy 32:22

(king james version)
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains

(NIV version)
For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below.It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains.


Matthew 5:22
(NIV version)
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

(king james version)
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



Hell is a grave or death

Psalm 16:10 (King James Version)


(King James Version) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

(NIV version) because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay

Job 26:6

(King James Version)Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
(NIV version)Death is naked before God;
Destruction lies uncovered
 

alphamale

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Rev. said:
He did.

2,000 years ago.

But we have that only on the word of the authors of the New Testament. How do we know they were telling the truth? Why not appear now, do miracles, let them be observed, recorded, photographed?
 

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alphamale said:
"Faith" means to hold something as true without proof. Why does God demand faith in Him? Why doesn't He just appear, do some incontrovertible miracles, proving He exists? Why the guessing game?

He did for a time, but miracle after miracle didnt sway everyone. And I believe that God doesnt so much demand faith in him personally, as I believe God transcends personhood and image...but that He demands faith in the ideals he upholds. Really if you think about it, he is asking no more from us than what a truly patriotic person would give...or a person who truly believes in any concept. Uphold the faith and reflect it in your every day life and you will prosper...but that doesnt mean you have to spend every moment in reflection of that faith, otherwise you would have the time to truly live.
 

alphamale

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jallman said:
He did for a time, but miracle after miracle didnt sway everyone. And I believe that God doesnt so much demand faith in him personally, as I believe God transcends personhood and image...but that He demands faith in the ideals he upholds. Really if you think about it, he is asking no more from us than what a truly patriotic person would give...or a person who truly believes in any concept. Uphold the faith and reflect it in your every day life and you will prosper...but that doesnt mean you have to spend every moment in reflection of that faith, otherwise you would have the time to truly live.

He'll sway me. And I thought that faith was a fundamental doctrine of the church.

"All who have faith in me will live, even if they die." (John 11.25)

Sure looks like He is demanding it.
 

jallman

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alphamale said:
He'll sway me. And I thought that faith was a fundamental doctrine of the church.

"All who have faith in me will live, even if they die." (John 11.25)

Sure looks like He is demanding it.

Faith is a fundamental doctrine of the church, but so is celibacy for priests. You cant confuse the doctrine of the church with the wishes of God. Granted, the church is majestic and a reflection of the glorious administration of heaven, but it is run by man here on earth and perfectly fallible.

God does demand faith in Him...but can you describe Him...can you quantify a being so powerful as to be able to light the sun and form the stars? I cant...I wont even try. But I do know He exists because the one true description in the Bible of God is a single word: Agape...love. And I believe in love...I believe in my fellow man...and I believe that the complexity of those feelings cannot be a chemical reaction, but must come from some endless divine source...and if I could ever follow the feeling to the source, I am sure that is where I will find God waiting.
 

alphamale

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jallman said:
Faith is a fundamental doctrine of the church, but so is celibacy for priests. You cant confuse the doctrine of the church with the wishes of God. Granted, the church is majestic and a reflection of the glorious administration of heaven, but it is run by man here on earth and perfectly fallible.

God does demand faith in Him...but can you describe Him...can you quantify a being so powerful as to be able to light the sun and form the stars? I cant...I wont even try. But I do know He exists because the one true description in the Bible of God is a single word: Agape...love. And I believe in love...I believe in my fellow man...and I believe that the complexity of those feelings cannot be a chemical reaction, but must come from some endless divine source...and if I could ever follow the feeling to the source, I am sure that is where I will find God waiting.

No. I gave you a direct quote of Jesus as related by John.
 

jallman

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alphamale said:
No. I gave you a direct quote of Jesus as related by John.

And I gave you a direct christian interpretation of that quote. What gives? :confused:
 

alphamale

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Why does God expect faith from human beings, when He Himself must know that He appears to them mysterious, unfathomable, existing in their minds only in faith, etc etc etc?
 

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alphamale said:
Why does God expect faith from human beings, when He Himself must know that He appears to them mysterious, unfathomable, existing in their minds only in faith, etc etc etc?

Why do you expect obedience from your children when you know that you appear powerful and big and mighty to them? Its because in some things you know best...and as your children grow, you let them have more insight into your reasoning. Its a maturation process meant to create an eternal bond. I see God as behaving no different.
 

alphamale

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jallman said:
Why do you expect obedience from your children when you know that you appear powerful and big and mighty to them? Its because in some things you know best...and as your children grow, you let them have more insight into your reasoning. Its a maturation process meant to create an eternal bond. I see God as behaving no different.

Not being infinitely powerful, I cannot wave a magic wand and give them instant insight. God, however, being infinitely powerful, could do so.
 
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