Putin now says can't we all get along?

[oneworld2]

Hopefully his oligarch buddies arent too keen on the financial collapse and a potential global thermonuclear war. Maybe they'll talk him down from the ledge eventually.

Let's hope so

 

[Mach]

Reminds me of Trump. Just completely devoid of reality.

 

[oneworld2]

It’s the only ethical stance. It’s probably not going to happen but it’s what would reset the situation fully. Russia is at fault and should be the one to pay.

Like most disasters the road to them has many strands imo

Minsk2 was supported by everyone, including the US, UNSC, OSCE Europe that was the compromise needed imo. Not great but better than this.

If we are going to be ethical, laws have to be universally applied or it ceases to be ethical. If it didn't happen to the US and others, including Ukraine, wrt Iraq Afghanistan the grounds for it happening to Russia are what?

 

[Chagos]

Hopefully his oligarch buddies arent too keen on the financial collapse and a potential global thermonuclear war. Maybe they'll talk him down from the ledge eventually.

Trouble is that he put them in their place long ago. He came upon them (already self-enriched under Yeltsin's insanely incompetent privatization scheme) when he took office.

Then he made a deal with them along the lines of "I'll let you keep your spoils and even let you enlarge upon them, but you stay the hell out of my politics."

"Or else."

And we've all meanwhile seen what "or else" looks like (remember Mikhail Khodorkovsky of Yukos?)

Vlad's power may foot to some extent on the oligarchs but it's mainly rooted in his absolute control of the guys with the guns, the poison and the truncheons.

And 6th story windows with faulty catches.

 

[OrphanSlug]

There is a chance Putin is looking for an offramp, but odds are it is just some other ploy to make a mess of things.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Like most disasters the road to them has many strands imo

Minsk2 was supported by everyone, including the US, UNSC, OSCE Europe that was the compromise needed imo. Not great but better than this.

If we are going to be ethical, laws have to be universally applied or it ceases to be ethical. If it didn't happen to the US and others, including Ukraine, wrt Iraq Afghanistan the grounds for it happening to Russia are what?

I never supported the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war was justified by the attack on the World Trade Center

 

[oneworld2]

There is a chance Putin is looking for an offramp, but odds are it is just some other ploy to make a mess of things.

I think people should be given an off ramp in times like these, especially in times like these.

 

[oneworld2]

I never supported the Iraq war

Never said you did, what I said was the selective application of laws renders them illegitimate at an ethical level and it does. Or do you disagree?

The Iraq war was a war of aggression , an illegal war for regime change and control/influence, I see many likenesses in this one

and the Afghanistan war was justified by the attack on the World Trade Center

Not imo

You have the right to respond in proportion to an attack, So the attacks on the AQ bases there were a justifiable response. A 20 year long invasion and occupation with thousands of people killed and likely millions fled are not

 

[Slartibartfast]

Never said you did, what I said was the selective application of laws renders them illegitimate at an ethical level and it does. Or do you disagree?

The Iraq war was a war of aggression , an illegal war for regime change and control/influence, I see many likenesses in this one

If that’s the way we want to go then we have a war torn world of might makes right and I certainly don’t support that.

The US is imperfect but it’s the best the world has especially given that a place like Russia doesn’t even try to be ethical

Not imo

You have the right to respond in proportion to an attack, So the attacks on the AQ bases there were a justifiable response. A 20 year long invasion and occupation with thousands of people killed and likely millions fled are not

We disagree here then

 

[oneworld2]

If that’s the way we want to go then we have a war torn world of might makes right and I certainly don’t support that.

We either prosecute all criminals or we prosecute none for things to be truly ethical imo The laws are designed to stop the might is right concept, they were draughted to do so but the people themselves in all countries should try to see things this way instead of booing and cheering based on nothing but their own nationalism. People might not know but the UN Charter doesn't start with " we the govs of the world" it starts with we the " peoples of the world". Maybe if we held our own to account it would be a start to holding everyone to account . Nearly all the cases brought to the Hague have been black people, that needs to change

The US is imperfect but it’s the best the world has especially given that a place like Russia doesn’t even try to be ethical

See the problem I have is the obvious reluctance in the above to accept the truth that our own are very bit a criminal as the next person. Iraq was a classic example that is easily comparable to the war in Ukraine now but still the words get stuck, we can be " imperfect", we can not be" saints", we " make mistakes" etc etc but the people on the receiving end know they are the victims oif crimes even if we care to avoid such an ugly realisation

We disagree here then

I thought you would have at least tried to make a case other than " because of 9/11" It wasn't the Taliban that attacked you. They offered to hand over OBL if you provided evidence for involvement. It is a crime to not exhaust all political/diplomatic avenues and just resort to violence etc etc If you seriously believe that a 20 year occupation, illegal regime change,and thousands or millions of lives blighted , people who had nothing to do with it ,was a justifiable response to 9/11 I fear there is little that will change that so we can agree to disagree but I prefer positions that are at least backed by something.

 

[Slartibartfast]

We either prosecute all criminals or we prosecute none for things to be truly ethical imo The laws are designed to stop the might is right concept, they were draughted to do so but the people themselves in all countries should try to see things this way instead of booing and cheering based on nothing but their own nationalism. People might not know but the UN Charter doesn't start with " we the govs of the world" it starts with we the " peoples of the world". Maybe if we held our own to account it would be a start to holding everyone to account . Nearly all the cases brought to the Hague have been black people, that needs to change





See the problem I have is the obvious reluctance in the above to accept the truth that our own are very bit a criminal as the next person. Iraq was a classic example that is easily comparable to the war in Ukraine now but still the words get stuck, we can be " imperfect", we can not be" saints", we " make mistakes" etc etc but the people on the receiving end know they are the victims oif crimes even if we care to avoid such an ugly realisation



I thought you would have at least tried to make a case other than " because of 9/11" It wasn't the Taliban that attacked you. They offered to hand over OBL if you provided evidence for involvement. It is a crime to not exhaust all political/diplomatic avenues and just resort to violence etc etc If you seriously believe that a 20 year occupation, illegal regime change,and thousands or millions of lives blighted , people who had nothing to do with it ,was a justifiable response to 9/11 I fear there is little that will change that so we can agree to disagree but I prefer positions that are at least backed by something.

The fruitless pursuit of the perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[Roadvirus]

Hopefully his oligarch buddies arent too keen on the financial collapse and a potential global thermonuclear war. Maybe they'll talk him down from the ledge eventually.

Or push him off a ledge.

 

[oneworld2]

The fruitless pursuit of the perfect is the enemy of the good.

It wouldn't be fruitless if we at least were able to hold our own criminals to account. Putin cites the crimes of the US leaderships in a way that tells you he thinks if they can get away with it so can I.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It wouldn't be fruitless if we at least were able to hold our own criminals to account. Putin cites the crimes of the US leaderships in a way that tells you he thinks if they can get away with it so can I.

That’s fine and I am free to disagree. The US could be better but it’s not bad

 

[OrphanSlug]

I think people should be given an off ramp in times like these, especially in times like these.

Unsure he is looking for one, or would take one if it presented itself.

 

[oneworld2]

Unsure he is looking for one, or would take one if it presented itself.

You only know by pushing the offer and seeing how genuine or not it is.

Nobody gave the Taliban the chance/time to see how serious they were to hand over OBL and the rest too, as they say is history.

I think if the Minsk2 had been pushed through we wouldn't be seeing this carnage. I think if it were put to him that NATO were withdrawing their offer of NATO membership to Ukraine /Georgia and agreed to see a neatral Ukraine that had sorted out its internal conflict it would put him in a very awkward position

 

[oneworld2]

That’s fine and I am free to disagree. The US could be better but it’s not bad

As an observation , it is noticeable that you have never been able to actually say that the USA has committed crimes at any stage of this exchange.

Your not agreeing with the attack on Iraq is not the same as admitting that it was a international crime every bit as worthy of comparison to the crime of Russias attack on Ukraine today. I find this a really common trait amongst western commentators and it if a reflection of the MSM coverage of these events.

At least in Russia they have to censor out the truth by means of big sticks and jail time, here we are so controlled by the system we don't seek it or reject it when it is put right up close to our faces

 

[Slartibartfast]

As an observation , it is noticeable that you have never been able to actually say that the USA has committed crimes at any stage of this exchange.

Your not agreeing with the attack on Iraq is not the same as admitting that it was a international crime every bit as worthy of comparison to the crime of Russias attack on Ukraine today. I find this a really common trait amongst western commentators and it if a reflection of the MSM coverage of these events.

At least in Russia they have to censor out the truth by means of big sticks and jail time, here we are so controlled by the system we don't seek it or reject it when it is put right up close to our faces

The second Iraq war should have never happened and the evidence for a WMD should have never been fabricated. However, that war was a mistake which is the mote on the sun of an amazing country to live in.

It's not perfect, we could certainly use a health care system that makes sense, for example, but its one of the best places to be for a lot of reasons.

 

[oneworld2]

The second Iraq war should have never happened and the evidence for a WMD should have never been fabricated. However, that war was a mistake which is the mote on the sun of an amazing country to live in.

It's not perfect, we could certainly use a health care system that makes sense, for example, but its one of the best places to be for a lot of reasons.

Your comments are still straight out of the acceptable level of criticism in the wests" free " media

You still can't call it an illegal war of aggression though can you, you know, a full on major league crime? It absolutely was but you just can't say it.

If it were Russia that had done the illegal Iraq war you would have no problem referring to it in terms of a war of aggression and/or a war crime. That's the difference you are failing to notice precisely because of how OUR propaganda system works

Hell will freeze over before you will ever read in the western MSM that Putins war of aggression wasn't a war of aggression but a " mistake", " a blunder",

We hear constantly that " Putin lies" and not to trust a word he or his lackies say. Agreed?

Then when we look at the long list of lies told to try to justify the illegal attack on Iraq, well more than just WMDs btw, they are cast as " failures of the intelligence community" or well intentioned fabrications and so on.........no they are lies to try to create a threat that didn't even have any hope of existing, posit that against NATO expansion into Ukraine/Georgia and we see that one threat is a complete farce and one is wholly credible. Additionally we are still getting much of our information from the same organisations that lied over Iraq

The US illegal attack on Iraq was/remains every bit as illegal and monstrous as the Russian one on Ukraine, it's only the coverage that is making you think they are worlds apart and you can thank the best propaganda system in the world for it

 

[Slartibartfast]

Your comments are still straight out of the acceptable level of criticism in the wests" free " media

You still can't call it an illegal war of aggression though can you, you know, a full on major league crime? It absolutely was but you just can't say it.

If it were Russia that had done the illegal Iraq war you would have no problem referring to it in terms of a war of aggression and/or a war crime. That's the difference you are failing to notice precisely because of how OUR propaganda system works

Hell will freeze over before you will ever read in the western MSM that Putins war of aggression wasn't a war of aggression but a " mistake", " a blunder",

We hear constantly that " Putin lies" and not to trust a word he or his lackies say. Agreed?

Then when we look at the long list of lies told to try to justify the illegal attack on Iraq, well more than just WMDs btw, they are cast as " failures of the intelligence community" or well intentioned fabrications and so on.........no they are lies to try to create a threat that didn't even have any hope of existing, posit that against NATO expansion into Ukraine/Georgia and we see that one threat is a complete farce and one is wholly credible. Additionally we are still getting much of our information from the same organisations that lied over Iraq

The US illegal attack on Iraq was/remains every bit as illegal and monstrous as the Russian one on Ukraine, it's only the coverage that is making you think they are worlds apart and you can thank the best propaganda system in the world for it

That's fine. I stand by my statements, believe it to be true, and no amount of gaslighting by you is going to make my change my mind.

 

[oneworld2]

That's fine. I stand by my statements, believe it to be true, and no amount of gaslighting by you is going to make my change my mind.

There was no gaslighting, you admitted to all the wrong doing yourself, you just couldn't allow yourself to put in terms that are only reserved for enemies of the state. You are completely lost to western propaganda and choose to live with your preferred view of the world despite even knowledge of the facts that undermine them, opting instead to use a different vocabulary so as to shield/protect yourself from an ugly truth. What was never reasoned in will not be reasoned out, who knew?

 

[Slartibartfast]

There was no gaslighting, you admitted to all the wrong doing yourself, you just couldn't allow yourself to put in terms that are only reserved for enemies of the state. You are completely lost to western propaganda and choose to live with your preferred view of the world despite even knowledge of the facts that undermine them, opting instead to use a different vocabulary so as to shield/protect yourself from an ugly truth. What was never reasoned in will not be reasoned out, who knew?

The gaslighting is that you are conflating a few bad policies to the US being evil or that its justification for Russia's evil.

 

[watsup]

There was no gaslighting, you admitted to all the wrong doing yourself, you just couldn't allow yourself to put in terms that are only reserved for enemies of the state. You are completely lost to western propaganda and choose to live with your preferred view of the world despite even knowledge of the facts that undermine them, opting instead to use a different vocabulary so as to shield/protect yourself from an ugly truth. What was never reasoned in will not be reasoned out, who knew?

Whataboutism. All that you ever do is WHATABOUTISM. The topic of the day is the invasion of Ukraine by the evil madman Putin and the wanton destruction and killing that he is visiting upon those courageous people, but all that you ever want to do is to list every transgression, real or imagined, that the US has ever committed. Why are you so loathe to discuss what is happening in Ukraine as we speak?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Whataboutism. All that you ever do is WHATABOUTISM. The topic of the day is the invasion of Ukraine by the evil madman Putin and the wanton destruction and killing that he is visiting upon those courageous people, but all that you ever want to do is to list every transgression, real or imagined, that the US has ever committed. Why are you so loathe to discuss what is happening in Ukraine as we speak?

He can't address Russia because he is a Putin supporter.

He'll badmouth the US before he badmouths Russia and he has. Look above at his posts.

 

[oneworld2]

Whataboutism. All that you ever do is WHATABOUTISM. The topic of the day is the invasion of Ukraine by the evil madman Putin and the wanton destruction and killing that he is visiting upon those courageous people, but all that you ever want to do is to list every transgression, real or imagined, that the US has ever committed. Why are you so loathe to discuss what is happening in Ukraine as we speak?

When people are moralizing from a position of gross hypocrisy they are fair game. Don't like it? Don't engage in it.

" Transgression" ?? lol you mean illegal wars that have less justification credibility than Putins war on Ukraine?

You want to talk about the war and listen to stuff you will never see in the MSM now, as it tries to make out that Russia is somehow unique in engaging in wars like this? That's fine by me too.

Zelensky, in 2019, tried to float the idea of elections in the Donbas as a means to try to break the impasse on the Minsk2 agreement. It was met with a nationalist backlash that saw a mob march on his offices and so he did a uturn. Since then he has taken a more right wing approach which has seen the arrest of political opponents and journalists that wish to see the Ukrainian civil war in the Dobas region brought to an end with a negotiated settlement

Early in 2021 there was a clampdown on 3 TV stations owned by pro Russian Ukrainian oligarchs and all three were shut down on the grounds that they refer to the civil war in Ukraine that has raged since 2014 as a " civil war". We have heard much of late about Putins autocratic censoring of the media but NOTHING about Zelenskys that preceded it

In March last year Zelensky announced a national commitment to retake Crimea, that means war with Russia, in case you are so lost to the current propaganda that it would appear as an alien concept. That was followed by a US commitment to supply arms and training to Ukrainian forces. The first shipments started arriving in December.

So, making no value judgements, the sequence has seen a growing decline in support for Zelenskys party, a clampdown on media with Zelensky shutting down people wishing to see a negotiated settlement of the Donbas conflict ,followed by a defacto declaration of war against Russia over Crimea along with military aid being supplied by NATO just prior to the Russian invasion.

The Russians knew that the Ukrainians were on the march to retake Crimea and decided to attack before they made their move on it. You won't see any of this in the MSM coverage today because they don't want people to know this, for obvious reasons.

The Russian attack on Ukraine is an extremely hard watch and will be prosectuted with many war crimes imo but that doesn't mean that the full story should be censored out by the western MSM. A negotiated settlement was ALWAYS the best option imo and is far better than the carnage we see going on today but too many people decided that the best solution was to keep poking the Russians in the eye with their proxy Ukrainian stick., a strategy that has led to this and now they act as though they had FA to do with it, hands to cheeks in supposed horror. That's what the western propaganda system is keeping from people. They don't have to censor the media because, just as in the illegal wars the hypocrites in the West have engaged in, they are complicit in it.