Public Sector Unions: Democrat money machines

[rabbitcaebannog]

It's the way politics works in this world

Agree. That certainly doesn't make it right though.

 

[Dovkan]

wanting to keep them is spitting in the face of our democratic republic....

there's nothing you can say to me that i've not already "realized" and entertained on the matter.

why should these workers have more power ,and the ability to exert said power, over government than any other citizen?
why do you not trust our government to treat their employees according to the laws passed by said government?

the private sector is the place where unions can thrive , if the workers so choose.... the public sector is not the place for them.. the nature of the employers( government versus private) is vastly different

I don't trust our government on the level you're describing. Spitting in the face of our democratic republic? They are public sector workers, and they don't get "more power" unless every lobbying group has more power then everyone else not lobbying, under this definition. How are they unfairly exerting there power? Oh really, private sector unions, the unions that have 6.6% membership? Private unions aren't as effective in this modern landscape. Union Members Summary

 

[Dovkan]

Agree. That certainly doesn't make it right though.

I know, it's a shame. Hell, I'd go as far as to say we're becoming, if not already, a plutocracy.

 

[Thrilla]

I don't trust our government on the level you're describing. Spitting in the face of our democratic republic? They are public sector workers, and they don't get "more power" unless every lobbying group has more power then everyone else not lobbying, under this definition. How are they unfairly exerting there power? Oh really, private sector unions, the unions that have 6.6% membership? Private unions aren't as effective in this modern landscape. Union Members Summary

nevermind... you haven't put enough though into this to bother with...

 

[Dovkan]

nevermind... you haven't put enough though into this to bother with...

Whatever you want to say, show me the effectiveness of private sector unions compared to public sector unions and get back to me.

 

[Linc]

The public sector unions in Illinois entered the 2014 GOP governor's race on behalf of Dillard versus Rauner, and almost pulled off the upset.
Dillard was against common-sense fixes to our public pension crisis, which played well with the Unions.
Guaranteeing me 3% COLA in perpetuity is economic madness--while our pension debt grows by millions each day .

I know, it's a shame. Hell, I'd go as far as to say we're becoming, if not already, a plutocracy.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Why is that?

Teachers unions demand exemption from any form of accountability, they argue contracts that make it so hard to fire incompetent teachers, they bankrolled an initiative here in Wash to reduce class sizes eve though science does not show lower class sizes to actually be beneficial and the state doesn't have the money to pay for it, they threaten illegal strikes and sometimes do actually strike illegally and the school officials never have the spine to simply fire them for striking.

Police unions lobby against judges and prosectors who respect civil rights (for example the police unions in WA put a bunch of money into defeating a sitting state Supreme Court judge who was a libertarian and replaced him wit a hard conservative 5 years ago. They are about as insular and protective of their own as longshoreman (except longshoreman don't run around on no knock raids killing people's dogs being the main difference) they manage to get enough conservative support to exempt themselves from union busting laws (a la Wisconsin)

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Teachers unions demand exemption from any form of accountability, they argue contracts that make it so hard to fire incompetent teachers, they bankrolled an initiative here in Wash to reduce class sizes eve though science does not show lower class sizes to actually be beneficial and the state doesn't have the money to pay for it, they threaten illegal strikes and sometimes do actually strike illegally and the school officials never have the spine to simply fire them for striking.

Teachers do have accountability. People that say they don't usually listen to false information. Also, has research ever been done to show that children with special needs do better or not when mainstreamed in classrooms with large numbers? I have a feeling that has never been addressed for obvious reasons.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Teachers do have accountability. People that say they don't usually listen to false information. Also, has research ever been done to show that children with special needs do better or not when mainstreamed in classrooms with large numbers? I have a feeling that has never been addressed for obvious reasons.

Then why does WEA oppose using test scores to rate teachers? Why did LA Unified keep mark Berhnt for over 15 years suppressing all complaints about him? What methods are being used to rate teachers currently?

The special needs is a distraction, the teachers unions want lower class sizes for all students because it reduces their workload and forces districts to hire more members they collect dues from.

Like I said, I think public sector unions should be prohibited from lobbying, interesting yu never addressed the police union argument either

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Then why does WEA oppose using test scores to rate teachers? Why did LA Unified keep mark Berhnt for over 15 years suppressing all complaints about him? What methods are being used to rate teachers currently?

The special needs is a distraction, the teachers unions want lower class sizes for all students because it reduces their workload and forces districts to hire more members they collect dues from.

Like I said, I think public sector unions should be prohibited from lobbying, interesting yu never addressed the police union argument either

....because test scores should not rate teachers. To answer your other questions about methods for rating teachers, it varies.

Special needs is not a distraction, it is a mandated law where students with disabilities are main streamed in the public school classrooms and if we want all children to succeed in a classroom, class size matters (unless it's a homogeneous class).

I'm not a policeman so I'm not going to pretend I know sh*t about it because I read it somewhere.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

....because test scores should not rate teachers. To answer your other questions about methods for rating teachers, it varies.

varies between what and what?

Special needs is not a distraction, it is a mandated law where students with disabilities are main streamed in the public school classrooms and if we want all children to succeed in a classroom, class size matters (unless it's a homogeneous class).

then why doesn't science uniformly show better results from smaller class sizes? It shows no benefit after third grade, marginal benefit before then. It's just like pre-K,

I'm not a policeman so I'm not going to pretend I know sh*t about it because I read it somewhere.

Well as the taxpayer funding your teacher job, I will reserve the right to have input in it. Allowing public employees to self regulate is a recipe for disaster

 

[NonConformer]

There is a huge difference between public sector and private sector unions. In the private sector, the unions at least understand that their employer must earn a profit, else nobody gets a paycheck.

But in the public sector, there is no "profit"; all revenue comes from the eternal spigot of taxation. Neither the workers nor "management" have a smidgeon of incentive to maximize productivity or reduce expenses. If anything, "management" gains more power by giving their unionized employees whatever they ask. The result is just an unholy alliance whose goal is to spend money, with no end in sight.

So yes, public sector unions should be abolished immediately. If public sector employees feel they don't earn enough, they can take it to the ballot box. Or join the private sector and unionize to their heart's content.

(In another thread, I'll discuss which side, management or unionized employees, is most guilty of using the power of government to line their pockets at the other's expense.)

 

[Fiddytree]

varies between what and what?

then why doesn't science uniformly show better results from smaller class sizes? It shows no benefit after third grade, marginal benefit before then. It's just like pre-K,



Well as the taxpayer funding your teacher job, I will reserve the right to have input in it. Allowing public employees to self regulate is a recipe for disaster

Sometime I can pull up specific studies, but a good rule of thumb is that many students with disabilities do thrive with increased attention from the instructor due to increased processing issues resulting from their disability. It's not a universal, but it is the generally accepted part of special education research for 30-40 years. Lower class sizes reduce distractions for those with attention issues, enables the instructor to respond more substantively to a student's progress or lack of progress, and any other guidance they need.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Sometime I can pull up specific studies, but a good rule of thumb is that many students with disabilities do thrive with increased attention from the instructor due to increased processing issues resulting from their disability. It's not a universal, but it is the generally accepted part of special education research for 30-40 years. Lower class sizes reduce distractions for those with attention issues, enables the instructor to respond more substantively to a student's progress or lack of progress, and any other guidance they need.

Yes small class sizes work for special Ed kids, but many teachers unions will use that logic while supporting legislation to lower class sizes for everyone, which doesn't work.

Also I went to a high school where the graduating class was over 600 people, less then 20 were special ed, I'm sure that's not enough to justify hiring 30% more teachers. My state can't afford to hire enough for 20 students a class. The unions know this but don't care

 

[Fiddytree]

Lobbying in general is corrupt as hell, so following this, just political sector unions need to be prohibited, almost all lobbying needs to be eliminated. I would say they don't need to be prohibited at all, with the way the current system operates, it's the only way to actually have a noticeable voice.

Lobbying is absolutely necessary, but I am not surprised such ignorance persists. As men of the Left, I would have thought both you and Seattle could appreciate the significant victories that had been won for the previously voiceless by lobbyists. Dare I say it, the Democratic Party's current coalition would only matter had lobbyists been there to enable these persons to be voting citizens in the first place. With the way lobbying has proceeded over the course of the last century, your ideas only go so far because a lobbyist is there to whisper in the ear of a willing-to-hear politician. Gradually over the course of the past century and a half, the smaller financed causes can and have gained significant ground.

If you want increased power by and for the little man, lobbying is where the action is. It's one of the most effective mechanisms such persons can affect political change, because they hadn't previously had such access.

 

[sangha]

Republicans regularly denigrate public sector employees

Wonders why they donate to democrats

 

[winston53660]

Republicans regularly denigrate public sector employees

Wonders why they donate to democrats

And they spend tons of money to get government jobs.

 

[Fiddytree]

Yes small class sizes work for special Ed kids, but many teachers unions will use that logic while supporting legislation to lower class sizes for everyone, which doesn't work.

It's not a miracle pill for expanded research, but it does help on the ground level as an instructor, and makes an especially impressionable impact on those students in special education.

Also I went to a high school where the graduating class was over 600 people, less then 20 were special ed, I'm sure that's not enough to justify hiring 30% more teachers. My state can't afford to hire enough for 20 students a class. The unions know this but don't care

Special education numbers vary from classroom to classroom, school to school, district to district. As such, the numbers can be much more than 20 per every 600 kids.

I myself am often skeptical of teachers unions for different reasons, but their existence still remains necessary.

 

[Linc]

Then why does WEA oppose using test scores to rate teachers?

Then why do GOPs rail against these tests Nationwide?
Do all teachers have the exact same level of students in a class of the same subject?
Have you ever done statistics as a department chair as I have?
Should teachers of lower-level classes be held to the same test score standards as teachers like me who taught chemistry and physics students ?

 

[Fiddytree]

Republicans regularly denigrate public sector employees

Wonders why they donate to democrats

Chicken and the egg kind of thing, Sang.

Historical anecdote that I found humorous. An incumbent State Superintendent of Public Schools (endorsed by the Democratic Party) is running against a Republican upstart in the early years of the Reagan administration. It's a nasty campaign in what (on paper) was a non-partisan post. The candidate endorsed by the Republicans points out that the Superintendent's own office is rented from the state's teacher union, which had been deep into the state's Democratic Party. Republican-endorsed candidate wins, fires several staff in the state department of education. Reasons why vary, but the fired persons claim political differences and sue the newly-elected candidate. State teacher union, of course, is their representative. Newly elected superintendent wins in the court, but both the state teacher union (and the state Democratic Party) and the superintendent's office trade public blows.

 

[Linc]

What methods are being used to rate teachers currently?

Educate yourself.
Illinois has passed a law that uses evaluations in conjunction with several other factors, such as seniority, to RIF teachers.
Teachers in the district where I retired from are no longer completely protected by seniority and tenure.

The anxiety I see across the staff has not improved the quality of their teaching.
Plus the despair they feel seeing a pension system that won't be there when they retire, whenever that will be, since the age keeps getting pushed back .

 

[Linc]

The special needs is a distraction

Tell that to the parents of special education and special needs students.
Not to mention the school board members and administrators who listen to these parents.

And the teachers who are continually required to give up their preparation and planning periods for an IEP or 504 meeting--for one student.
A student who more often than not hasn't fallen far from the parent tree of dysfunction .

 

[Fiddytree]

Tell that to the parents of special education and special needs students.
Not to mention the school board members and administrators who listen to these parents.

And the teachers who are continually required to give up their preparation and planning periods for an IEP or 504 meeting--for one student.
A student who more often than not hasn't fallen far from the parent tree of dysfunction .

What do you mean by that?

 

[Linc]

the teachers unions want lower class sizes for all students
because it reduces their workload and forces districts to hire more members they collect dues from.

You are no progressive with this anti-union attitude which has very little in common with reality.
Why are today's science classrooms built by administrations with 6 science tables, 4 students to a table?
I averaged around 130 students a year in 5 classes for most of my 33 years.

My first year in 1976 had 192 students in 6 classes.
I didn't make just over $10,000 a year until my 4th year.

After my fifth year, I had my college loans paid off, owned a ****ty car, and had very little in the bank--ten years after high school.
While all my buddies were wild-catting all over the Nation, especially on the Alaska pipeline.

You have zero idea how ****ty conditions were for teachers when I started in 1976.
And now, administrators are in a straight-jacket with the new evaluation tool while having to make cuts.

Reagan taught this country that "deficits didn't matter"---apparently he was wrong.
Reagan also instilled in this country the idea that paying your fair share of taxes was bad--while cutting taxes on the rich--voodoo economics if you will .

 

[Linc]

What the hell do you think I mean by that?
These people have no idea the extra time constraints put on teachers since you and I first started.

Do you support a teacher having to give up his prep period to sit with a team of eight professionals--the student--and whoever shows up as his parents/guardians?
For many of these kids, they are the parent in the family--or do you not teach kids with dysfunctional family units.

[/B]

What do you mean by that?

And try addressing the rest of the post also--instead of cherry-picking looking for a baseless argument .