Prove God's Existence

[MrFungus420]

Why? Because this life's been so miserable I'm really hoping for an afterlife free of pain. Selfish, huh?

So, why not try to change your life?

You live in DC. In my opinion one of the most depressing and stressful places in the country.

If you don't mind my asking, what type of attorney are you? Maybe changing your specialization (for lack of a better term) would help. Heck, maybe changing your profession, even.

You live in a lousy city (in my opinion) and have a profession that for most people has a very negative association.

With or without belief, if your life is miserable, it's up to you to change it. Please, for your own health and well being, change it.

 

[Snoozin]

So, why not try to change your life?

You live in DC. In my opinion one of the most depressing and stressful places in the country.

If you don't mind my asking, what type of attorney are you? Maybe changing your specialization (for lack of a better term) would help. Heck, maybe changing your profession, even.

You live in a lousy city (in my opinion) and have a profession that for most people has a very negative association.

With or without belief, if your life is miserable, it's up to you to change it. Please, for your own health and well being, change it.

Heh heh. Actually life's just fine right now. :smile: But it's been a long time coming. I don't want to disclose the reason for misery (personal), but it's not caused by externalities like career. FWIW, I work in the public sector trying to provide adequate health care coverage to the uninsured and under-insured. I'm not a typical TV-shark-type attorney. I'm well-off, but not rich, and I work every day to try to improve the quality of life for people.

I've put my life together the way I want it, and God willing, it will stay that way (or even get better). Trying to figure out the place God holds in this life is like the last step in hoping to make things stay good.

 

[Snoozin]

So, why not try to change your life?

You live in DC. In my opinion one of the most depressing and stressful places in the country.

Well, I *am* trying to move to Egypt. :mrgreen:

 

[clone]

what?! dc(which in my opinion is one of the only places suitable to live in along with new york, LA, Las Vegas, Fort Worth, and anywhere in New Jersey)
to egypt? it brings me pain just thinking about that.

 

[Snoozin]

what?! dc(which in my opinion is one of the only places suitable to live in along with new york, LA, Las Vegas, Fort Worth, and anywhere in New Jersey)
to egypt? it brings me pain just thinking about that.

Heh heh! My fiance is Egyptian. His work might take him there.....

I actually love Cairo....and it's a great place to live if you are an expat and if you have money.

Who knows, though? But yes, I do like DC. I'm a politics addict. And it's a blue state. Don't think I would survive in middle America.....

 

[MrFungus420]

Aw, and here one of my other suggestions was going to be to change political affiliations. :lol:

 

[Snoozin]

Aw, and here one of my other suggestions was going to be to change political affiliations. :lol:

LOL! I started out as a Reagan Republican, does that count? I was *very* taken with Bush's 2000 campaign message of *compassionate conservatism.* But the *compassionate* part never played out adequately for me....

 

[MrFungus420]

Look deeeeeeeep into my eyes...you're getting sleepy...think...Libertarian...

 

[mistermain]

My philosophy on this subject is simple. I choose to believe in God, because it does not take any more energy to do so. The chance of eternal damnation is reason enough to believe.

 

[Ethereal]

I came in a little late but here it goes.

Despite what non-believers will tell you there is a logical explanation to the existence of God that doesn't involve faith. It's called the law of conservation of matter and energy. How, if this law is true, did the first quark, atom, molecule come about? It couldn't have simply appeared out of nothingness since this would be a direct violation of the aforementioned law. It had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is God.

Science does not disprove God's existence, it confirms it. The universe is too intricate and complex to be some astronomical accident. How much sense does it make that billions of years ago there was an explosion of galactic proportions and now you and I are sitting on something called a computer discussing the existence of a God? It defies logic. Astrophysics, quantum mechanics, calculus, are these complex sciences the result of creation or the explanation for it?

The fact that you and others are here in this forum wanting to know of His existence is proof enough that He is there. He has guided you to this place in order show Himself to you through the faith of others. Why else did you come here wanting to know of Him? Was that also an accident? Or was is just as purposeful as the creation of the universe?

Non-believers are the ones who lack logic and reason. They think our existence is just some big accident, and therefor that it serves no purpose. Everything is an accident to them. If we all die in the end and there is no God, then what's the point in anything we do? If we're all going to the same cosmic junkyard in the end then who cares about morality or consequences? Because if this is true and if there is no God, then mankind will cease to exist one day, and everything we've done, everything we've fought and struggled for will have meant absolutely nothing.

So, you can either believe that we're the accidental product of star-dust and that we're headed toward our inexorably pointless end, or that we are here to serve a purpose in order to fulfill a higher calling.

God has already begun to reveal Himself to you. All you have to do is seek Him out and He will come.

 

[MrFungus420]

I came in a little late but here it goes.

Despite what non-believers will tell you there is a logical explanation to the existence of God that doesn't involve faith. It's called the law of conservation of matter and energy. How, if this law is true, did the first quark, atom, molecule come about? It couldn't have simply appeared out of nothingness since this would be a direct violation of the aforementioned law. It had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is God.

When the theory of multiple dimensions is also taken into account, there is no violation. It is shown very elegantly in "1,2,3...Infinity", by Isaac Azimov.

Science does not disprove God's existence, it confirms it. The universe is too intricate and complex to be some astronomical accident. How much sense does it make that billions of years ago there was an explosion of galactic proportions and now you and I are sitting on something called a computer discussing the existence of a God? It defies logic. Astrophysics, quantum mechanics, calculus, are these complex sciences the result of creation or the explanation for it?

This is a simple argument from incredulity. Since you don't see how it could have happened, it must have been done by an outside source.

But, which makes more sense, that an event happened billions upon billions of years ago that we don't yet fully understand but we have some evidence of, and everything is a result of that, or, that there is some being that exists outside of all time and space and just decided to create the universe, and create it in such a manner that there is evidence that it was created in another fashion?

The "complex sciences" are a result of us expanding our understanding of how things work. They are complex because the universe is complex. And, they tend to become more complex as we understand more.

The fact that you and others are here in this forum wanting to know of His existence is proof enough that He is there. He has guided you to this place in order show Himself to you through the faith of others. Why else did you come here wanting to know of Him? Was that also an accident? Or was is just as purposeful as the creation of the universe?

Personally, I usually come to this type of discussion because it's fun. If you could offer anything resembling real, objective proof, I would be absolutely amazed. I've yet to see anything resembling proof for the existence of a god that can't be shown to be fallacious.

Non-believers are the ones who lack logic and reason.

Not at all. I use logic and reason to counter the claims made by people who claim they have proof of a god.

They think our existence is just some big accident, and therefor that it serves no purpose. Everything is an accident to them. If we all die in the end and there is no God, then what's the point in anything we do? If we're all going to the same cosmic junkyard in the end then who cares about morality or consequences? Because if this is true and if there is no God, then mankind will cease to exist one day, and everything we've done, everything we've fought and struggled for will have meant absolutely nothing.

Now, that all depends on your point of view. When I stop to help somebody, wouldn't you say that the act has meaning, or, would you say that it only has meaning if there is a god? If you have a child, and bring that child up to be a good person, does that have no meaning if there isn't a god? If you love somebody, does that only have meaning if there is a god? I would say that all of these, and much more, are intrinsically meaningful.

So, you can either believe that we're the accidental product of star-dust and that we're headed toward our inexorably pointless end, or that we are here to serve a purpose in order to fulfill a higher calling.

Or, you can believe that we did come about by chance, and it is up to us to make our lives meaningful.

God has already begun to reveal Himself to you. All you have to do is seek Him out and He will come.

Or, you have taken the first step towards freeing yourself from mythology and realizing that meaning and good ultimately come from within.

 

[Timequake]

My philosophy on this subject is simple. I choose to believe in God, because it does not take any more energy to do so. The chance of eternal damnation is reason enough to believe.

Would you find it necessary to believe in God if there were no threat of eternal damnation?

 

[Wyldinstinct]

When the theory of multiple dimensions is also taken into account, there is no violation. It is shown very elegantly in "1,2,3...Infinity", by Isaac Azimov.



This is a simple argument from incredulity. Since you don't see how it could have happened, it must have been done by an outside source.

But, which makes more sense, that an event happened billions upon billions of years ago that we don't yet fully understand but we have some evidence of, and everything is a result of that, or, that there is some being that exists outside of all time and space and just decided to create the universe, and create it in such a manner that there is evidence that it was created in another fashion?

The "complex sciences" are a result of us expanding our understanding of how things work. They are complex because the universe is complex. And, they tend to become more complex as we understand more.



Personally, I usually come to this type of discussion because it's fun. If you could offer anything resembling real, objective proof, I would be absolutely amazed. I've yet to see anything resembling proof for the existence of a god that can't be shown to be fallacious.



Not at all. I use logic and reason to counter the claims made by people who claim they have proof of a god.



Now, that all depends on your point of view. When I stop to help somebody, wouldn't you say that the act has meaning, or, would you say that it only has meaning if there is a god? If you have a child, and bring that child up to be a good person, does that have no meaning if there isn't a god? If you love somebody, does that only have meaning if there is a god? I would say that all of these, and much more, are intrinsically meaningful.



Or, you can believe that we did come about by chance, and it is up to us to make our lives meaningful.



Or, you have taken the first step towards freeing yourself from mythology and realizing that meaning and good ultimately come from within.

Very well said. This is very similar to the opinions I have. I tend to believe that the way I live my life, raise my children, and work hard for the things that I have are attributed to myself and not to thousands year old fiction. I don't codem anyone who chooses to believe in religion or a God. I think that anything the gives you the motivation to live a "good" life is a great thing. It just so happens that I subscribe the the power of self vs. the power of God.

 

[DivineComedy]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

Prove what caused the largest of singularities to bang instead of leaking radiation until it no longer existed. Until then, I take it on faith that it was pushed.

 

[leejosepho]

I've yet to see anything resembling proof for the existence of a god that can't be shown to be fallacious.

I defend your right to deny anything I might say, but the fact remains that over at least the past twenty years I have yet to see my report that He "quit my drinking for me" by removing the problem through reconciliation and transformation "shown to be fallacious."

Truly, and with all factors accurately considered, there simply is no other explanation.

 

[leejosepho]

The chance of eternal damnation is reason enough to believe [in God].

Depending upon your definition or understanding of "eternal damnation", that reason *could* be relatively inconsequential. To wit:

Some folks believe the damned will "burn forever" in the pain of eternal, excruciating torment - a religious doctrine used to scare people - but it is far more likely that "burned" will ultimately prove to simply mean something like "consumed" or "destroyed" ... and that will be the end of that. And in that kind of "hell" or whatever, you might even say that at least some non-believers will actually get their thought / wish / hope of "nothingness" after death.

Would you find it necessary to believe in God if there were no threat of eternal damnation?

In my own case, yes, and that is because my life here on earth (and in great part at my own hand) would again become "excruciatingly painful" - oh, so alone - apart from Him.

 

[Wyldinstinct]

Depending upon your definition or understanding of "eternal damnation", that reason *could* be relatively inconsequential. To wit:

Some folks believe the damned will "burn forever" in the pain of eternal, excruciating torment - a religious doctrine used to scare people - but it is far more likely that "burned" will ultimately prove to simply mean something like "consumed" or "destroyed" ... and that will be the end of that. And in that kind of "hell" or whatever, you might even say that at least some non-believers will actually get their thought / wish / hope of "nothingness" after death.



In my own case, yes, and that is because my life here on earth (and in great part at my own hand) would again become "excruciatingly painful" - oh, so alone - apart from Him.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. What if another species from another place in the universe visited earth and confessed that they created humans? What if they gave hard physical evidence that they were responsible for the creation of humans, backed by documentation? What if they also gave proof to the fact that they "staged" religion as a means to control the human masses during "less civilized" stages of our development? What if it were revealed that we are just some grand science project of theirs designed just to see if they could achieve creation of life? What if they proved that there was no God as we know it? Would you still feel this excruciating pain knowing for fact that christianity was a hoax? Or would you be relieved to finally know the truth? And I know to you, faith is the truth. But I mean the truth, right before your eyes.

I'm certainly not trying to disrespect your beliefs, I'm just one of those guys that asks the really wierd questions. Probably kept me out of the "good" schools :mrgreen:

 

[clone]

then id damn near kill myself...after killing the ailens of course...

i hate being wrong
and being someones science project isnt much better...

 

[MrFungus420]

I defend your right to deny anything I might say, but the fact remains that over at least the past twenty years I have yet to see my report that He "quit my drinking for me" by removing the problem through reconciliation and transformation "shown to be fallacious."

Truly, and with all factors accurately considered, there simply is no other explanation.

I would put it to you that your belief is what did it for you. You just needed to have belief in something greater than yourself to do it. If you could have had the faith in yourself, you would have been able to help yourself. Similar to a Wiccan girl that I know that felt she could only quit smoking if she made the promise to the Goddess. Same thing. They both show the power of faith, not the thing believed in.

Her experience is just as valid a proof for the Wiccan belief of a God and Goddess as yours is proof for God. It is purely subjective. The fallacious point is thinking that it constitutes viable proof of something other than the power of your beliefs.

 

[Dogger807]

Christianity is the most persecuted religion in this century, perhaps even throughout all of history. It is also one of the largest religions. In China the communist government persecutes Christianity, yet there are still a fair amount of Chinese Christians. Simply looking at its strength throughout history, I find it hard to believe that Christianity is a false belief.

ahh the old.. we are the persecuted one's argument. Pity it has no basis in fact. If anything christianity is the most persecuting religion of all time. Starting with the pagans in the Roman empire and working itself forward. You don't think the Wiccan religion was virtually wiped out of Europe by the Muslims? Let's disregard the crusades , the inquisition, and the fact the Holocaust was driven on christianity for the time being. Let's go instead to modern views. What do you think they tell believers in the military today? I'm not gonna fill that one in for you. Do your research. Find a local chaplin. "How can a loving God justify this war."

I could write a paper on the fallacy of the statement "Christians the persecuted".

But I didn't come to post today on that one outright lie (Intentional or not it's a lie.) No I came to point out that all the arguments brought fourth by the theists are ambiguous . They can be applied to any religion or spiritual belief. Whether it is your spirit guide, the mother Goddess, a walkabout, mediation, or god. The average person needs to believe in something greater than the here and now. History shows this as an undeniable fact. They will defend these beliefs fiercely, even die for them.

In the end it's only faith. When that faith no longer supports the needs of the people it branches and evolves. The christianity observed today is almost nothing like that of the original. Only the basic tenants stay the same.

When faced with observation and scrutiny religion can only claim that we do not understand. Then make excuses for the inaction of non existant beings.

I have found that religions have an answear for everything yet answear nothing. The blind leading the blind.

Science doesn't have the answear for everything, but has the sense to open it's eyes and look for the map.

You say that you can not find god without opening your heart. I say you can not find god unless your willing to deceive yourself.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

C.S. Lewis is the best starting point for you. Read Mere Christianity. In it, he makes a logical case for Christanity.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I came in a little late but here it goes.

Despite what non-believers will tell you there is a logical explanation to the existence of God that doesn't involve faith. It's called the law of conservation of matter and energy. How, if this law is true, did the first quark, atom, molecule come about? It couldn't have simply appeared out of nothingness since this would be a direct violation of the aforementioned law. It had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is God.

Science does not disprove God's existence, it confirms it. The universe is too intricate and complex to be some astronomical accident. How much sense does it make that billions of years ago there was an explosion of galactic proportions and now you and I are sitting on something called a computer discussing the existence of a God? It defies logic. Astrophysics, quantum mechanics, calculus, are these complex sciences the result of creation or the explanation for it?

The fact that you and others are here in this forum wanting to know of His existence is proof enough that He is there. He has guided you to this place in order show Himself to you through the faith of others. Why else did you come here wanting to know of Him? Was that also an accident? Or was is just as purposeful as the creation of the universe?

Non-believers are the ones who lack logic and reason. They think our existence is just some big accident, and therefor that it serves no purpose. Everything is an accident to them. If we all die in the end and there is no God, then what's the point in anything we do? If we're all going to the same cosmic junkyard in the end then who cares about morality or consequences? Because if this is true and if there is no God, then mankind will cease to exist one day, and everything we've done, everything we've fought and struggled for will have meant absolutely nothing.

So, you can either believe that we're the accidental product of star-dust and that we're headed toward our inexorably pointless end, or that we are here to serve a purpose in order to fulfill a higher calling.

God has already begun to reveal Himself to you. All you have to do is seek Him out and He will come.

I am a Christian, but by your logic, if matter had to be created by something, then God must have been created by something as well. Right?

 

[Ethereal]

When the theory of multiple dimensions is also taken into account, there is no violation. It is shown very elegantly in "1,2,3...Infinity", by Isaac Azimov.

Yes, I'm sorry but a law differs very much from a theory. Shall I explain the difference?

This is a simple argument from incredulity. Since you don't see how it could have happened, it must have been done by an outside source.

You can explain it no better than I. We're both relying on theories except my is interjected with faith. That's the only difference yet you fail to see it since you're a slave to reason.

But, which makes more sense, that an event happened billions upon billions of years ago that we don't yet fully understand but we have some evidence of, and everything is a result of that, or, that there is some being that exists outside of all time and space and just decided to create the universe, and create it in such a manner that there is evidence that it was created in another fashion?

Neither makes sense. That's the beautiful thing about faith, it needn't make sense.

The "complex sciences" are a result of us expanding our understanding of how things work.

And yet we still know so little...

They are complex because the universe is complex. And, they tend to become more complex as we understand more.

So where did this complexity of complexities come from?

I've yet to see anything resembling proof for the existence of a god that can't be shown to be fallacious.

The same can be said for the converse of this logic.

Now, that all depends on your point of view. When I stop to help somebody, wouldn't you say that the act has meaning, or, would you say that it only has meaning if there is a god? If you have a child, and bring that child up to be a good person, does that have no meaning if there isn't a god? If you love somebody, does that only have meaning if there is a god? I would say that all of these, and much more, are intrinsically meaningful.

Why do they have any meaning if you're ultimately going to be whiped out from all memory? Who will be around to care that you gave some spare change to a homeless man 50 billion years from now or that you lead a good life? Without a God there is no purpose or meaning.

and it is up to us to make our lives meaningful.

To what end?

Or, you have taken the first step towards freeing yourself from mythology and realizing that meaning and good ultimately come from within.

When will you liberate yourself from the shackles of "reason" and realize there are greater powers at work than yourself.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. What if another species from another place in the universe visited earth and confessed that they created humans? What if they gave hard physical evidence that they were responsible for the creation of humans, backed by documentation? What if they also gave proof to the fact that they "staged" religion as a means to control the human masses during "less civilized" stages of our development? What if it were revealed that we are just some grand science project of theirs designed just to see if they could achieve creation of life? What if they proved that there was no God as we know it? Would you still feel this excruciating pain knowing for fact that christianity was a hoax? Or would you be relieved to finally know the truth? And I know to you, faith is the truth. But I mean the truth, right before your eyes.

I'm certainly not trying to disrespect your beliefs, I'm just one of those guys that asks the really wierd questions. Probably kept me out of the "good" schools

What if aliens came to Earth and said they were messangers of God? That Christianity was the only true religion, and that they were able offer hard, scientific proof that God existed and that Jesus was the Mesiah. Would you drop to your knees and convert on the spot? Would you repent for your sins and beg God for forgiveness? Would you blah blah? Blah blah - blah blah?

Nice try though.

 

[mistermain]

Would you find it necessary to believe in God if there were no threat of eternal damnation?

I have had many events occur during my lifetime that prove to me there is a higher being looking out for us. I am not saying I haven't had my fair share of issues or problems. It's just that I have had blessings come in times of need (sometimes they are disguised).

It has been proven to me through my blessings that there is a higher being, so I do not believe in God out of fear. I do tell people who have never recognized their blessings, and question God's existence that it is better to be safe than sorry though.

 

[Dezaad]

My philosophy on this subject is simple. I choose to believe in God, because it does not take any more energy to do so. The chance of eternal damnation is reason enough to believe.

The chance of eternal damnation is one of the best reasons of all NOT to believe in the Christian God.