Prove God's Existence

[galenrox]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

Throughout my life there have been several things that I have done that I shouldn't have survived, let alone gotten away unscathed. I attempted suicide 6 times between the ages of 12 and 15, I once had a bout of insomnia that I attempted to cure with an entire bottle of tylenol PM (the big Sam's Club ones), I once took about 400 mg of random uppers with 200 mg of tranquilizers, along with a fifth of vodka, etc. I think you get the point. Anywho, as you can assume I was going through a real hard time, thus why I placed myself in such obviously unsavory positions.
Then I came out of it. Everything just seemed better, mostly cause of my girlfriend, but it was more than that, even when no one was around, I didn't feel alone, someone was there, someone who loved me and cared deeply about what happened to me, which was something I had previously lacked. Then one night I was talking to my mom, and she mentioned that there were probably 12 or 13 elderly people at my church who I didn't really know, but knew me and knew I was going through some hard times, and apparently they had prayed for me every night for years (not prayer groups, but they kept me in their prayers), and it all made sense, that this being that was always with me was God, that God had come to me, and that everything that I've done served a purpose, if for nothing else, to get me where I am today.

 

[leejosepho]

Religion helps a lot of people just like Teen and Lee and many more ...

I do not argue with what I believe you mean to be saying there, yet the fact remains that "religion" ultimately left me hanging with no answers (and I have not since returned to it). Rather, I now pursue and attempt to bear witness of right (Scriptural) service, fellowship and worship.

 

[Snoozin]

Throughout my life there have been several things that I have done that I shouldn't have survived, let alone gotten away unscathed. I attempted suicide 6 times between the ages of 12 and 15, I once had a bout of insomnia that I attempted to cure with an entire bottle of tylenol PM (the big Sam's Club ones), I once took about 400 mg of random uppers with 200 mg of tranquilizers, along with a fifth of vodka, etc. I think you get the point. Anywho, as you can assume I was going through a real hard time, thus why I placed myself in such obviously unsavory positions.
Then I came out of it. Everything just seemed better, mostly cause of my girlfriend, but it was more than that, even when no one was around, I didn't feel alone, someone was there, someone who loved me and cared deeply about what happened to me, which was something I had previously lacked. Then one night I was talking to my mom, and she mentioned that there were probably 12 or 13 elderly people at my church who I didn't really know, but knew me and knew I was going through some hard times, and apparently they had prayed for me every night for years (not prayer groups, but they kept me in their prayers), and it all made sense, that this being that was always with me was God, that God had come to me, and that everything that I've done served a purpose, if for nothing else, to get me where I am today.

Very poignant story too, Galenrox. We are more similar than you know. My life is good now, too, only problem is I keep waiting for the bottom to drop out.

 

[Mixed View]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

Nothing horrible has happened in my life. I've never had a near death experience or a time of totall depression. So I wasn't at an alltime low when I started to believe. I've always grown up in church. I played the game ( ya, I thought Christianity was a game), thinking it was to show off and get points.
Now you say you've had low points in your life and it feels like God isn't there, but have you been completely open to him at those times?
The reason I believe there is a God is because I've felt his love. Like if it were tangible. If just comepletely pur all your trust and faith in Him you will find your faith and you won't demand answers, you won't demand proof, because in your heart you'll just know he is there. You'll just know. Live your life for Him and you will find your proof.
If you know a good Christian and you are going through rough time talk with them and ask them to pray for you. Then you won't feel so alone in those situations.
Another proof is that a man, a regualar human being came to this Earth. He had the same temptations as man, but he was not only 100% man, but also 100% God. This man lived his life without sin. Then he was wrongfully acused of lieing about being the son of God. He died on a cross for our sins out of comeplete love. But he rose again 3 days later. That is proof. That is the ulltimate proof of God and God's love for us to send his one and only son to die for us.

 

[teenonfire4him77]

I admire your great and deep passion here, teenonfire4him77, but YHWH actually can - He is quite able to - help anyone at all, and for any reason that pleases *Him*.

However, and at least since He has plenty of everything to go around anyway, it does not please Him for any one or more of us human beings to *ever* personally gain anything at the expense (loss) of any other(s).

For example: It once made even my own selfish skin "crawl" or whatever to hear a nationally-known and professional competitor "thank 'God'" for his victory/win (over others) that particular day.

Rhetorically: Only the making of a one-ended stick would/could have been more impossible.

I know, thats not what i meant to limit God, let me clarify what i said.
God can do the impossible.
If you let him work wonders with you.
if you are full of hate, you are not in tune with God...in the sense that, you reject him and his power to taake care of whoever has casue you to hate them 'Vengence is mine, says the Lord'.
The way I see it, if you are hateful, then you are not depending fully on the Lord and surrrendering all your toubles to him, let him take care of it.
21Then Jesus told them, "I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, `May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Matt 21:21-22

Prayer does wonders....:lol:

Did i make it more clear?

 

[Snoozin]

I know, thats not what i meant to limit God, let me clarify what i said.
God can do the impossible.

I'd just like to tell you teen, and mixed view and galenrox, you folks are quite a bit younger than me and I am very impressed with how articulate and perceptive you are.

I'm not sure if I just wasn't that smart when I was in high school/college/just starting out or what, but it's really nice to see how well you express yourselves. :smile:

 

[Snoozin]

Nothing horrible has happened in my life.

That's good and I hope nothing ever does. :smile: And I don't think it's necessary to go through bad times to find strong faith.

Have I ever completely given myself over to God? Probably not, although I have tried. Have you ever read anything by Karen Armstrong? She's a former nun who finally gave up the faith, but she writes extensively on religious history and doctrine. I find her very fascinating. But I feel sort of like her. I never felt a direct connection to God, God has never spoken to me. Or if He has, I'm too dense to hear it.

And I don't mean to give any offense on this board at all, I have great respect for all religions, and whatever way a person finds his/her path to God is a blessing. But I feel closer spiritually to Judaism and Islam even though I was raised Christian.

I must pray directly to God; in my heart I feel as if Jesus Christ, although I respect him very much, is an intercessor.

 

[leejosepho]

I know, thats not what i meant to limit God ...

Prayer does wonders....:lol:

Did i make it more clear?

Yes, and thank you, er, may we all thank Him for your not taking offense to what I had said!

 

[Viper]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

Snoozin,

The existence of God is written on the heart of man. It is in nature and it is in his Word. If you truly search him out with your heart, he will identify himself to you. Much like you asking the question you did, God used Teenonfire to identify himself to you. Teenonfire, may God bless you and watch over you…may you grow in His love and his word. Anyone can pray to God, he knows our hearts, our sincerity. It is okay to ask him to identify himself to you but you do have to take steps to learn about him placing faith in Him.

I would recommend you reading the Gospel of John. If you don’t have a Bible and can’t afford one, I would be happy to send one to you…just PM me. Again, as you meditate on his Word ask him to reveal himself to you. Look deeply into nature, for example a feather…how perfect it is…how intricate it is… Search your heart, search your soul, you will find him calling to you. Once you accept him with a pure heart he will never let you go! He may convict you first, but he will show you his Grace and Love.

Some are waiting on Him to appear, when he does appear it will be too late for those that never accepted him. Some outright refuse him or deny him. The best ways for a Christian to prove God is; by His Word, by witnessing, by His love and with charity. The World looks upon Christians as hypercritical. This is false, Christians are far from perfect. We are sinners, just like any other individual on this earth. We just place our faith in God, in Christ’s gift of the cross.

Myself, I grew up in a Catholic home. I was raised in a Catholic school. I believed in God but I didn’t understand him. I didn’t understand how we could pray to saints or how the pope was god on earth. As a little boy I would talk with God all the time, asking him these questions. Later in my life I felt a pulling… I knew God was calling me. He led me to a church that was doctrinally sound. This is where I gave myself to our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was a babe in Christ during this time. Through the Spirit of God I was leading others to Christ. My belly burned to spread his Love. Unfortunately, satan attacked me in every way possible. My wife left me with a one year old and a two year old. I was transferred to Germany. Alone, in the army with two babies to care for, I began to slowly backslide. This lead to years of backsliding or ignoring God as he called my name.

I was involved in a car accident, resulting in two major back surgeries. I met a wonderful Christian woman. We married and had a child. We lost our son in the most horrible fashion one can imagine. Yet both my wife and I were able to hold him while he passed, a true blessing. Than the battle with my exwife and my children began. She introduced them to drugs…how does a parent explain to a child it is wrong when the other parent does it with them beginning at the age of twelve?

Through all of this, I would talk to God here and there. But my life was definitely not walking along His path. I was in sin…I was the wretched man that I am. Yet I could never deny or denounce God. I always felt him with me. Never forsaken me like I did him. I was that little sheep lost in the darkest parts of the forest. When he found me again I rejoiced. Now I can’t get enough of him…Now I can’t leave his side. Now I want to cling to him.

God is alive, he is calling your name. He loves you, hear his call…

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Timequake]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

I too have felt this way before. I look at others with their unfaltering faith and wonder how they do it? With nothing to hold on to but their beliefs how can they be so committed to something that could so easily turn out to be a lie. But more than anything I am jealous, I want to be that kind of person, I want to put everything I know aside and just have one moment of that clarity I just can’t seem to grasp. It’s a struggle, I believe in God but I have little faith in God… if that makes any sense at all.

 

[Snoozin]

I too have felt this way before. I look at others with their unfaltering faith and wonder how they do it? With nothing to hold on to but their beliefs how can they be so committed to something that could so easily turn out to be a lie. But more than anything I am jealous, I want to be that kind of person, I want to put everything I know aside and just have one moment of that clarity I just can’t seem to grasp. It’s a struggle, I believe in God but I have little faith in God… if that makes any sense at all.

That's *exactly* how I feel. In a psychology class in high school, we learned about a mental/emotional state called an epiphany, where you feel outrageously happy, but it's bigger than that, it has to do with feeling like one with the universe. And it's no coincidence this concept is prevalent in Chrisitanity as well.

I *do* feel that way, but it's when I'm thinking of the concepts of good and justice and truth. If I can feel so wonderful thinking about these concepts, why don't I *feel* that way when thinking/praying/talking/wondering about God?

And yes, there's a bit of envy too, of people who find faith so easily.

It is a struggle. Sometimes I see Him so clearly, but those times are few and far between. But it's a worthy struggle.

 

[Snoozin]

Snoozin,
I would recommend you reading the Gospel of John. If you don’t have a Bible and can’t afford one, I would be happy to send one to you…just PM me. Again, as you meditate on his Word ask him to reveal himself to you. Look deeply into nature, for example a feather…how perfect it is…how intricate it is… Search your heart, search your soul, you will find him calling to you. Once you accept him with a pure heart he will never let you go! He may convict you first, but he will show you his Grace and Love.

Thank you Viper, you are very kind. I actually have 3 Bibles (different versions), the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, the Talmud, and the Qur'an. :smile: But I will definitely re-read the Gospel of John.

 

[Timequake]

That's *exactly* how I feel. In a psychology class in high school, we learned about a mental/emotional state called an epiphany, where you feel outrageously happy, but it's bigger than that, it has to do with feeling like one with the universe. And it's no coincidence this concept is prevalent in Chrisitanity as well.

I *do* feel that way, but it's when I'm thinking of the concepts of good and justice and truth. If I can feel so wonderful thinking about these concepts, why don't I *feel* that way when thinking/praying/talking/wondering about God?

And yes, there's a bit of envy too, of people who find faith so easily.

It is a struggle. Sometimes I see Him so clearly, but those times are few and far between. But it's a worthy struggle.

Definitely a worthy struggle.

This blind faith that we seem to have a hard time grasping reminds me of Descartes. I’m sure you are familiar with him since you mentioned taking a philosophy course. Descartes was a rationalist, if you remember, he thought knowledge came from reason, and reason alone. He claimed the senses were too erratic to be trusted and believed that people are born with a priori, instinctive ideas that have been present since birth. Thus he insists that since all proof of God has been gathered by both the senses and reason, it cannot be considered a truth. So Descartes takes it upon himself to find the proof without using his senses, relying solely the a priori. He begins by removing all information he as assimilated from his senses, branding them unreliable, but soon finds that without his senses he knew nothing, causing him to doubt his knowledge all together. He then realized that his doubt was in fact the proof he was looking for, the fact that he actually doubted himself, thought within himself, was assurance that mind and body were indeed separate, and allowed him to grasp that famous epiphany “I think therefore I am.” After this revelation Descartes continued to dissect himself further, and he found what we today would call faith, the idea of a perfect being. From this, he found God’s existence to be reasonable and identified six separate reasons why, i.e. the six meditations.

But what Descartes fails to acknowledge is that not all people can “look inside themselves” and feel the presence of God. This includes you and me. It makes me wonder, did God just forget to put this idea into our minds? Are those who lack this idea, predestined to take his word for it rather than feel it? This natural thought just doesn’t seem so natural. If these a priori are human instincts, why is the instinct of the perfect being not found in all humans?

 

[Snoozin]

But what Descartes fails to acknowledge is that not all people can “look inside themselves” and feel the presence of God. This includes you and me. It makes me wonder, did God just forget to put this idea into our minds? Are those who lack this idea, predestined to take his word for it rather than feel it? This natural thought just doesn’t seem so natural. If these a priori are human instincts, why is the instinct of the perfect being not found in all humans?

I read somewhere that people who have strong faith have a more active region in the ventral prefrontal cortex of the brain (or something like that). So I just wonder if my brain is a bit deficient in that area. :smile:

But the fact that some people have a mental predisposition for faith ties in neatly with predestination in a way. God creates some humans, those predestined for heaven, a certain way, with a certain physiological brain makeup. ?? I don't know.

However. The mere fact that there might be some physiological reason for faith, something embedded in humans in general, would explain a lot. Like why every society/culture in every time period recorded by humans has some sort of concept of God and/or afterlife. I suppose in a way, even though I don't feel the faith that strongly, this idea is as close as I've come to proving God's existence. Even in an evolutionary model, why would human beings have an *instinct* if you will, to have faith in a higher being? What purpose does that serve in terms of evolution?

 

[teenonfire4him77]

That's good and I hope nothing ever does. :smile: And I don't think it's necessary to go through bad times to find strong faith.

Have I ever completely given myself over to God? Probably not, although I have tried. Have you ever read anything by Karen Armstrong? She's a former nun who finally gave up the faith, but she writes extensively on religious history and doctrine. I find her very fascinating. But I feel sort of like her. I never felt a direct connection to God, God has never spoken to me. Or if He has, I'm too dense to hear it.

And I don't mean to give any offense on this board at all, I have great respect for all religions, and whatever way a person finds his/her path to God is a blessing. But I feel closer spiritually to Judaism and Islam even though I was raised Christian.

I must pray directly to God; in my heart I feel as if Jesus Christ, although I respect him very much, is an intercessor.

Well he is an intercessor,
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
Althought i believe he was God...but nontheless he is an intercessor.

34Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for he is the one who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us.
-Romans 8:34

I'd just like to tell you teen, and mixed view and galenrox, you folks are quite a bit younger than me and I am very impressed with how articulate and perceptive you are.

I'm not sure if I just wasn't that smart when I was in high school/college/just starting out or what, but it's really nice to see how well you express yourselves.

Hehe, thanx...I write poetry on the side, and i read a lot...and i guess tje fact that i had to grow up fast, peopel always say im mature for my age, and i only have a few close friends my age, most of my friends are in college, like young adult, heh*shrug* I always liked to be around adults a lot as a kid, and i still do, so you know...:lol:

 

[Snoozin]

Well he is an intercessor,
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
Althought i believe he was God...but nontheless he is an intercessor.

No,you are right. I'm not sure if I was brought up in the Twilight Zone or what, :smile: but when I was going to church as a child, God was emphasized way more than Jesus Christ was, and it was a *huge* thing to not have intercessors, like praying to saints or the Virgin Mary. This might have been some backlash against Catholicism at the time. I'm not sure.

It's just stuck in my head that I will pray to no one but God.

 

[teenonfire4him77]

No,you are right. I'm not sure if I was brought up in the Twilight Zone or what, :smile: but when I was going to church as a child, God was emphasized way more than Jesus Christ was, and it was a *huge* thing to not have intercessors, like praying to saints or the Virgin Mary. This might have been some backlash against Catholicism at the time. I'm not sure.

It's just stuck in my head that I will pray to no one but God.

Its ok hun! I'm not gonna make you do anything, heh, I have gone to catholic school all my life(still going to an all girl catholic school), and i dont agree with praying to saints, or placing mary as someone divine and other traditions either...I'm not a non-denomination christian (without a doctrine), i jsut follow the bible, because its truth.

Since we are both in DC, just PM me and you can drop by my church sometime if you wish:lol:

 

[DonRicardo]

Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

Unfortunately (for you) that's impossible. It is impossible to prove his existance as well as to disprove it.

Every observation and sensual perception can be deceived. There is no proof or notion of an absolute perception. Senses can be cheated in a way of deeply philosophical thinking. Phemonology questions if perception is real.

However, although one can never prove anything, except his own consciousness and perception (scentience), one can make logical assumptions to accept observations as evidence. So do I, as an atheist. Then, unless any observation is shown of a deity or supernatural fact/event, you have no valid proof (observations).

Humans commonly accept proof as observations. Consider an example where a suspect is being judged in court. Do you think witnesses are enough? Or would you rather believe alibi's, fingerprints and motive? That's why religion twarths logic. As they say: "Seeing is believing" and I keep myself to that.

 

[128shot]

As...atheist? I dunno what I am anymore, I'm at least a skeptic if anything.


anyway. I have a hard time reaching out to anyway or anything like religion/god, and I think its because I've become emotionally cold over the years.


From my father dying at 12, to bad highschool years, and many other things, I've become something...emotionally cold? well, not quite, but close enough.


I guess we're in a similiar problem...

 

[Alex]

there is about what? 6 BILLION people in the world?


Look, you keep believing whatever you want about my 'classic' example ok? Clearly your heart is closed, and have no desire to know God...and thats on you.
the only thing thats left to say to you is; I will pray for you

Reread my post. I said nothing about "people in the world." Those numbers are from people in this country. But since you brought it up, these numbers reflect a trend that is happening in all major countries in the world.

* In the 2001 Australian Census [13] 15.5% of respondents ticked 'no religion' and a further 11.7% either did not state their religion or were deemed to have described it inadequately (there was a popular and successful campaign at the time to have people describe themselves as Jedi).

* The 2001 New Zealand census [14] showed that 40% of the respondents claimed "no religion".

* 2001 The Czech Statistical Office asked the ten million people in the Czech Republic about religion. 59% had no religion, 32.2% were religious, and 8.8% did not answer.

* A 2002 survey by Adherents.com [15] estimates the proportion of the world's people who are "secular, non-religious, agnostics and atheists" as about 14%.

* In a 2003 poll in France, 54% of those polled identified themselves as "faithful", 33% as atheist, 14% as agnostic, and 26% as "indifferent". [16]

* A 2004 survey by the BBC [17] in 10 countries showed the proportion of the population "who don't believe in God nor in a higher power" varying between 0% and 30%, with an average close to 10% in the countries surveyed. About 8% of the respondents stated specifically that they consider themselves to be atheists.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

 

[Alex]

Alex, why such contempt for people who believe in God? It seems you have some anger built up over religion. I don't see why you try and belittle someone’s life experiences by saying things like religion is taking advantage of them. If religion makes you a better person and helps you find a purpose in life then why would you want to dissuade someone from that? Even if you do not believe in God, are you helping by trying to convince others?

I to was raised in a very religious environment, I went to private school, I even led bible studies, and I to learned to be an atheist during that time because the church could not answer all of my questions without deferring to faith. I abandoned my beliefs for a long time, but the last couple of years have changed my mind, not because of difficulty but because of reason.

Ok here is my reasoning (this proves nothing but it's how I look at things):
Science doesn't create laws it finds them, so the question is not "how do things work?" but rather "how where the laws made for things to work?" or "where did these laws come from?" I just can't make myself believe this whole universe is an accident. My personal belief is that God is in everything, you, me, the matter that makes the universe from the furthest star to the smallest neutron and all the things we have yet to discover.

Religion helps a lot of people just like Teen and Lee and many more, I don't see that as taken advantage of someone, I see it as helping.

I have no "contempt" for religous people. Believe what you want. This is a debate club, so that is what I am doing.

Religion may help people get through bad times, but it has conditions for that help. This is not free will. See previous post for more details.

 

[Alex]

You make a valid point, Alex: It does not. With or without any direct connection to "religion", as such, kind people abound. And if you were to add the word "could" to your initial statement, as in "This *could* be a classic example of ...", I would even be willing to agree that it *could* be.

Nevertheless, teenonfire4him77, I am fully convinced you should keep right on doing what you are doing at the moment and along the way learn to look only up.



-

Agreed, I should have written "could."

 

[Alex]

If you are interested and willing, Alex, I would like to have a quiet discussion about the things just said.

To my own and strictly personal satisfaction, I have both observed and experienced sufficient amounts of empirical, visceral and rational evidence to have YHWH's existence proved or "proofed" to me ... and as you might have heard me say elsewhere, I do not presume that evidence convincing for anyone else.

Since I do not know the best way to word this question, please feel free to do with it as you wish, if at all:

When a "believer" even casually mentions "God", why do others immediately demand proof of His existence?

Beause this is a debate club. There is a time and a place for debate of religious issues. This is it.

My aunt is an absolute believer in the Bible and in the god it writes about. I am constantly having to listen to her speak about this god and never have I asked her for proof. I get Christmas cards from her every year that are religious and never have I sent her one that asks for proof. Most of my friends are religious and never have I ask for proof.

I do not expect proof of a god's existence where it is not appropriate as it is here. With that out of the way, I will answer your question in general terms.

People ask for proof because without it, statements are just empty statements. If I came to you and told you that I found an alien, what would be your first impulse? You would want proof of it probably by seeing it yourself. Would you believe it without that proof? Expecting evidence is only natural. I cannot believe anything without experiencing it with my own senses and that is rightly so.

You pointed out that you wanted a quiet discussion. Have I been yelling?

 

[Pretender]

There is not way to "prove" persay his existance. Yet there are several events that have occured which we can not explain. For example, how the earth or world was created. It needed an unmoved mover and people call that person their "god" and attribute other unexplained this to that person. They also have gods to give us an option after death; fear of death. There is no real way to prove their is a god, but there are several unexplained occurances which keep the possibility open. Like all religions, you need "FAITH"

 

[conan]

There is not way to "prove" persay his existance. Yet there are several events that have occured which we can not explain. For example, how the earth or world was created. It needed an unmoved mover and people call that person their "god" and attribute other unexplained this to that person. They also have gods to give us an option after death; fear of death. There is no real way to prove their is a god, but there are several unexplained occurances which keep the possibility open. Like all religions, you need "FAITH"

Like you say, it is impossible to disprove God. The reason is because it is impossible to prove a universal negative. For example, no one can prove aliens don't exist, but one can make there best argument for the possibility.

However, we can go on more that just faith to consider it reasonable to believe in God. To the very best of our knowledge, every event has a cause. The idea the universe is infinite is unfounded and unscientific, thus it is most reasonable to assume the universe had a cause. God is that first cause and does not require a cause Himself because God is not and an effect. Only effects require a cause. Is it any wonder that the brightest minds in physics believe in some idea of God.