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Prove God's Existence

Snoozin

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Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?
 
T

teenonfire4him77

Snoozin said:
Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?
Well lets see...For the first 10 years of my life i was molested by my brother, then by a church friend (We had gone to a AME church [African Methodist Epesicpal...basicly methodist tho] when i was little, but it was just someplace to go and play and hang out for me, nothing to do with God at all, wasn't even really interested with the 'big guy upstairs'). I was suicidel at 6, tried to kill myself at 9 and again at 13. Throughout that i had becoem a big girl, cause i didn't know how to cope so i turned to food, in that i went through brutal ridicule and even beaten just because i was big. I went into a severe depression at 12, turned to cutting and suicide attempt for a second time, tehn onto an eating disorder (bullemia). I went to therapy, had medicines and what not...i was improving a bit, but all the medicines did was cure my 'chemical imbalence' not my heart.
In 7th-8th grade, there was a lot of bullying going on, i was basiclly all alone (very small school, only 19 people in my class) All of the friends ive grown up with since kindergarden have turned on me.
But this year, a new girl, Jordann, came to our class...we talked every once in a while, but i was too busy in my own problems to try and get to know her. But somethign just told me to make friends with her...then one day i had gone over her house after school, and we realized how much in common we had, we had basicly a heart to heart. She was a pastors kid, and so i was liek ok thats cool...and she had told me of that point in ehr life where she choose to follow God on her own. I wasn't really interested at the time about anything to deal with God, cause at that time i was convinced that there was none, and if so, then ill just go to hell then cause i really didn't care.
Throughout the summer, we kept in touch, even as she went on her missions trip to Jamacia. Then when the next shcool year came, we went to different highschools...I had become a partyer, and i started drinking, but i never had sex, but the way teens dance now a days (esp. partys i went to) if was darned near sex, but with clothes on...but i started going to her youth group, and thats when my life started to change.

I saw the way she lived, with her struggles and triaumphs in the Lord, and it inspired me. She didn't try and talk to me about him, only if i wanted to, and the youth pastor then, Janele...was amazing. She showed me what true christ-like love was, I never felt that...not from anyone, not my parents...she actually cared about me! She could see right through the mask that ive learned to put on that made my life seem like it was great on the outside...and it opened my eyes and my heart to see that there is a God out there who loves me more then anything, and hates what ive been doing to myself, and wants to take my pains from me so I can live freely in his name.
At this point, I wanted to know the Lord. I wanted to feel the joy through the pain that everyone around me felt, I wanted to live an honerable life and have the relationship with Jesus that is so precious.
So my first major turning point experirence was at Aquire the Fire, it's a convention that is done all over the US. to teach kids about Christ. (A branch of Teen Mania- www.battlecry.com )
It was there where I experienced Christ breaking through the walls in my heart, and i just gave my all to him. Right then and there, I decided the live for him...that is where i got saved, and many other people in my youth group did too.
Then the opprotunity to go on a missions trip with Teen Mania to South Africa came up, and i jumped on it. This past summer, I learned so much on taht trip, i grew so much more in my relationship...bonded with people who have been true christians (meaning not just by name, but by life) longer then I have...and they keep me accountable as I do them.
Just because i have embarked on thi new path in Jesus, doesn't mean i wont ever slip back into my old behaviors(Lord knows i have)...but having friends who keep my accountable and are always there for a shoulder to cry on when the devil trips me up and i give into the temptation that he gives me, and i feel the incredible guilt about it.
Since I've gotten back to school, ive found it a bit hard to fit in, and heck, i might even loose some of my friends soon...but you know what? That probably the best thing, cause as much as I want to reach out to them, i don't want to force them and i don't need them bringing me back down to the place where I used to be. And I always have my church friends...who are as on fire for the Lord as I am.
No matter what anyone tells me, or what kind of 'proof' they give me to disprove the exsistence of God...it wont sway me. I know what he has done for me in my life, because I saught him will all my heart...and he has blessed me 10 fold because of it.:cool:

And there ya go:lol:
 

Snoozin

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Wow, your post first made me cry and then made me happy. :smile:

I am very happy (maybe a little envious) that you have found something to bring peace to your life. I hope it is with you always. Your story represents all that is good about religion.

And I see you are a neighbor of mine (DC). :smile: I'm glad to know there are people like you around. Keep the faith.....

Susan
 

leejosepho

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Snoozin said:
Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God.
For whatever this might be worth to you, Snoozin: In my own case, "losing faith in extraordinarily hard times" turned out to be a result of my having misguided expectations stemming from "Santa-Claus theology", so to speak. And if you like, I will gladly try to help you sort some of that out.

Snoozin said:
So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?
Pretty much like I believe teenonfire4him77 has shared, He proves Himself at the personal level when, one by one, we who become desperate and/or at least willing reach out to Him and leave the results to Him. In contrast, however, Santa Claus allegedly responds to demands if we are first "good".
 

Snoozin

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leejosepho said:
Pretty much like I believe teenonfire4him77 has shared, He proves Himself at the personal level when, one by one, we who become desperate and/or at least willing reach out to Him and leave the results to Him. In contrast, however, Santa Claus allegedly responds to demands if we are first "good".
That's a good way to look at it....I guess I just get bogged down in how horrible certain aspects of life are, why are so many people so cruel to others? Why does God let that happen?

And why do I feel *closer* to God when I try to help people then when I am actually *thinking* about Him? :confused:
 

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teenonfire4him77 said:
Well lets see...For the first 10 years of my life i was molested by my brother, then by a church friend (We had gone to a AME church [African Methodist Epesicpal...basicly methodist tho] when i was little, but it was just someplace to go and play and hang out for me, nothing to do with God at all, wasn't even really interested with the 'big guy upstairs'). I was suicidel at 6, tried to kill myself at 9 and again at 13. Throughout that i had becoem a big girl, cause i didn't know how to cope so i turned to food, in that i went through brutal ridicule and even beaten just because i was big. I went into a severe depression at 12, turned to cutting and suicide attempt for a second time, tehn onto an eating disorder (bullemia). I went to therapy, had medicines and what not...i was improving a bit, but all the medicines did was cure my 'chemical imbalence' not my heart.
In 7th-8th grade, there was a lot of bullying going on, i was basiclly all alone (very small school, only 19 people in my class) All of the friends ive grown up with since kindergarden have turned on me.
But this year, a new girl, Jordann, came to our class...we talked every once in a while, but i was too busy in my own problems to try and get to know her. But somethign just told me to make friends with her...then one day i had gone over her house after school, and we realized how much in common we had, we had basicly a heart to heart. She was a pastors kid, and so i was liek ok thats cool...and she had told me of that point in ehr life where she choose to follow God on her own. I wasn't really interested at the time about anything to deal with God, cause at that time i was convinced that there was none, and if so, then ill just go to hell then cause i really didn't care.
Throughout the summer, we kept in touch, even as she went on her missions trip to Jamacia. Then when the next shcool year came, we went to different highschools...I had become a partyer, and i started drinking, but i never had sex, but the way teens dance now a days (esp. partys i went to) if was darned near sex, but with clothes on...but i started going to her youth group, and thats when my life started to change.

I saw the way she lived, with her struggles and triaumphs in the Lord, and it inspired me. She didn't try and talk to me about him, only if i wanted to, and the youth pastor then, Janele...was amazing. She showed me what true christ-like love was, I never felt that...not from anyone, not my parents...she actually cared about me! She could see right through the mask that ive learned to put on that made my life seem like it was great on the outside...and it opened my eyes and my heart to see that there is a God out there who loves me more then anything, and hates what ive been doing to myself, and wants to take my pains from me so I can live freely in his name.
At this point, I wanted to know the Lord. I wanted to feel the joy through the pain that everyone around me felt, I wanted to live an honerable life and have the relationship with Jesus that is so precious.
So my first major turning point experirence was at Aquire the Fire, it's a convention that is done all over the US. to teach kids about Christ. (A branch of Teen Mania- www.battlecry.com )
It was there where I experienced Christ breaking through the walls in my heart, and i just gave my all to him. Right then and there, I decided the live for him...that is where i got saved, and many other people in my youth group did too.
Then the opprotunity to go on a missions trip with Teen Mania to South Africa came up, and i jumped on it. This past summer, I learned so much on taht trip, i grew so much more in my relationship...bonded with people who have been true christians (meaning not just by name, but by life) longer then I have...and they keep me accountable as I do them.
Just because i have embarked on thi new path in Jesus, doesn't mean i wont ever slip back into my old behaviors(Lord knows i have)...but having friends who keep my accountable and are always there for a shoulder to cry on when the devil trips me up and i give into the temptation that he gives me, and i feel the incredible guilt about it.
Since I've gotten back to school, ive found it a bit hard to fit in, and heck, i might even loose some of my friends soon...but you know what? That probably the best thing, cause as much as I want to reach out to them, i don't want to force them and i don't need them bringing me back down to the place where I used to be. And I always have my church friends...who are as on fire for the Lord as I am.
No matter what anyone tells me, or what kind of 'proof' they give me to disprove the exsistence of God...it wont sway me. I know what he has done for me in my life, because I saught him will all my heart...and he has blessed me 10 fold because of it.:cool: And there ya go:lol:

This is a classic example of religion taking advantage of someone. You were in a seriously low point in your life it seems (sorry to hear about all the terrible times you went through). You had a void in your life that needed to be filled. Religion did that for you. People become very desperate for unconditional love at all times. They turn to religion to obtain this. Sounds like this is what happened here.

How does this prove the existence of a god?
 

Snoozin

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alex said:
This is a classic example of religion taking advantage of someone. You were in a seriously low point in your life it seems (sorry to hear about all the terrible times you went through). You had a void in your life that needed to be filled. Religion did that for you. People become very desperate for unconditional love at all times. They turn to religion to obtain this. Sounds like this is what happened here.

How does this prove the existence of a god?
I don't think it's fair to say religion has *taken advantage* of her since the changes it has effected have been very positive ones. ?? And in a way, her story proves the existence of God in *her* life.

But I have a question for you, since I'm assuming you don't believe in God. How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

Snoozin said:
That's a good way to look at it....I guess I just get bogged down in how horrible certain aspects of life are, why are so many people so cruel to others? Why does God let that happen?

And why do I feel *closer* to God when I try to help people then when I am actually *thinking* about Him? :confused:
Well, maybe that is what God wants you do you, maybe it is his will for you.
Pray about it...ask him to guide you to where he wants you to be.
 

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Snoozin said:
I don't think it's fair to say religion has *taken advantage* of her since the changes it has effected have been very positive ones. ?? And in a way, her story proves the existence of God in *her* life.

But I have a question for you, since I'm assuming you don't believe in God. How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
The burden of proof falls on the believer, not a doubter. There is no empirical or rational evidence for the existence of a god. The lack of that kind of evidence is proof itself.
 

Snoozin

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alex said:
The burden of proof falls on the believer, not a doubter. There is no empirical or rational evidence for the existence of a god. The lack of that kind of evidence is proof itself.
But the old adage, "The absence of proof is not proof of absence."
 

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Snoozin said:
But the old adage, "The absence of proof is not proof of absence."

Alright, then this means the burden of proof is on the believer. Go for it.

Here is something I posted awhile back in another thread. I think there has been enough time gone by to give it another shot:

Epicurus is one of the major philosophers in the Hellenistic period, the three centuries following the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BCE (and of Aristotle in 322 BCE). Epicurus developed an unsparingly materialistic metaphysics, empiricist epistemology, and hedonistic ethics. Epicurus taught that the basic constituents of the world are atoms, uncuttable bits of matter, flying through empty space, and he tried to explain all natural phenomena in atomic terms. Epicurus rejected the existence of Platonic forms and an immaterial soul, and he said that the gods have no influence on our lives. Epicurus also thought skepticism was untenable, and that we could gain knowledge of the world relying upon the senses. He taught that the point of all one's actions was to attain pleasure (conceived of as tranquility) for oneself, and that this could be done by limiting one's desires and by banishing the fear of the gods and of death. Epicurus' gospel of freedom from fear proved to be quite popular, and communities of Epicureans flourished for centuries after his death.

The Riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Also from Epicurus:

"If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another."

Do these seem logical? Are they valid points?
 

Snoozin

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alex said:
The Riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Also from Epicurus:

"If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another."

Do these seem logical? Are they valid points?
Yes, it all makes perfect sense. Trust me, I tend to be too logical for my own good in matters of faith, I totally get what you are saying.

*But!* If you start with the premise that God is too complex an entity for a human being (today) to fully comprehend, then His actions may be too complex for us to understand as well. We use something like only 10% of our brains; there is the potential there for far more reasoning, thought, and sensation.

In other words, I am limited in my ability to conceive of what a God would be, or how He would act. So to base proof of His existence only on empirical evidence may not necessarily be possible.

I want to know the truth of what really *is.* I don't want to find a satisfactory rationale for what I want to *believe.* Does that make any sense?
 

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alex said:
This is a classic example of religion taking advantage of someone. You were in a seriously low point in your life it seems (sorry to hear about all the terrible times you went through). You had a void in your life that needed to be filled. Religion did that for you. People become very desperate for unconditional love at all times. They turn to religion to obtain this. Sounds like this is what happened here.

How does this prove the existence of a god?
If religion helps so many people get through the tough times in their lives, and it gives people strength, and helps some of the most miserable people completely change their lives for the better, how is it taking advantage of them?

The Riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
I'm going to solve this whole riddle for you.
Oh, one quick question... Have you read the Bible alex? If not, you should shut up. If you do not know what you are talking about, there is no point in listening to you.

For the solution. In the beginning of Genesis, God created the garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve were meant to live together with God in happiness. Then Eve was tempted by the snake to eat a golden apple from the tree that God had forbidden them to eat from. When they ate the apple, they gained the knowledge of right and wrong. To punish them, God banished them from the Garden, among some other punishments.

The Bible is not meant to be taken literally, word for word. Rather, it is deeply symbolic. You have to think about what is written, which is a major stumbling block in religious arguments.

Therefore, I interpreted the story as such: God first made it so that humans could coexist with Him in the Garden of Eden. They would be free to love each other unconditionally. However, when Original Sin (the eating of the apple) occured, humans gained free will-they would be free to make their own decisions and choose what is right and what is wrong. Our ability to make any decision we want is our free will, but humans also are tempted and corrupted by power.

God gave us free will. In exchange, He no longer directly affects the course of the world. You could say we are, in a way, independant from God. This does not mean that God does not answer prayers. He answers genuine prayers, not evil ones. If you ask God to kill or hurt someone, it will not happen. If you ask God for guidance and strength, He will guide you. How else can you explain how Christianity has survived for two thousand years, through numerous persecutions, how people have the strength to become martyrs throughout history? Christianity grew during its early time in Rome, like when Nero was burning Christians alive so that they could be used as human torches, from several hundred to millions. People who were involved in the persecutions of Christians have converted to Christianity!

Christianity is the most persecuted religion in this century, perhaps even throughout all of history. It is also one of the largest religions. In China the communist government persecutes Christianity, yet there are still a fair amount of Chinese Christians. Simply looking at its strength throughout history, I find it hard to believe that Christianity is a false belief.

teenonfire, that story has left me speechless. Yet another testament to how Christ is still healing us even 2000 years later. I wish I could say more, but nothing seems to fit. May God continue to light the way for you.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

alex said:
This is a classic example of religion taking advantage of someone. You were in a seriously low point in your life it seems (sorry to hear about all the terrible times you went through). You had a void in your life that needed to be filled. Religion did that for you. People become very desperate for unconditional love at all times. They turn to religion to obtain this. Sounds like this is what happened here.

How does this prove the existence of a god?
Excuse me, 'religion' did not take advantege of me. I choose to follow God, and i knew full well what I was getting into.
It's not your place to judge my personal experience.
My experince is 'classic' nor is it 'special', its my story, and my life.
God came when I called, and only when I called...He can't help those who don't want him.

Also from Epicurus:

"If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another."

Do these seem logical? Are they valid points?
God can't help those who pray with hearts full of hate. God is Love...if you are full of hate, he can't work through you...your eviliness prevents God from letting his love shine through you.
It's not something thats easy, we as sinners do sometimes become hateful, but we can ask him to remove it and give us pure hearts.
 

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Nez Dragon said:
If religion helps so many people get through the tough times in their lives, and it gives people strength, and helps some of the most miserable people completely change their lives for the better, how is it taking advantage of them?
It is taking advantage of someone because it is offering them something they cannot refuse in their lowest hour. It has a condition to this offering; believe in what it tells you to. This is not free will and therefore it has taken advantage of the person.

Nez Dragon said:
I'm going to solve this whole riddle for you.
Oh, one quick question... Have you read the Bible alex? If not, you should shut up. If you do not know what you are talking about, there is no point in listening to you.
"Shut up"? This is your reply? This is an obvious admission of frustration and that is an admission of defeat.

Yes, I have read the Bible. I went to a Christian School. That is were I learned to be an Atheist.

Nez Dragon said:
For the solution. In the beginning of Genesis, God created the garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve were meant to live together with God in happiness. Then Eve was tempted by the snake to eat a golden apple from the tree that God had forbidden them to eat from. When they ate the apple, they gained the knowledge of right and wrong. To punish them, God banished them from the Garden, among some other punishments.
The Bible is not meant to be taken literally, word for word. Rather, it is deeply symbolic. You have to think about what is written, which is a major stumbling block in religious arguments.
If it cannot be taken literally, then it is completely discredited and worthless.

Nez Dragon said:
Therefore, I interpreted the story as such: God first made it so that humans could coexist with Him in the Garden of Eden. They would be free to love each other unconditionally. However, when Original Sin (the eating of the apple) occured, humans gained free will-they would be free to make their own decisions and choose what is right and what is wrong. Our ability to make any decision we want is our free will, but humans also are tempted and corrupted by power.

God gave us free will. In exchange, He no longer directly affects the course of the world. You could say we are, in a way, independant from God. This does not mean that God does not answer prayers. He answers genuine prayers, not evil ones. If you ask God to kill or hurt someone, it will not happen. If you ask God for guidance and strength, He will guide you. How else can you explain how Christianity has survived for two thousand years, through numerous persecutions, how people have the strength to become martyrs throughout history? Christianity grew during its early time in Rome, like when Nero was burning Christians alive so that they could be used as human torches, from several hundred to millions. People who were involved in the persecutions of Christians have converted to Christianity!
This still does not excuse the fact that evil exists and a god is able but not willing to prevent it. This makes that god malevolent. Just the simple act of creating evil makes that god malevolent.

People have converted to Christianity for numerous reasons.

1. It is an easy explanation for everything. Instead of trying to find the real reason for something, it is much easier to say, "Because that is the way a god wants it" or "a god made it that way."
2. People need unconditional love. There are times when people do not feel loved and believing in a god fills this void.
3. People do not want to believe that when we die, that is it. Belief in a god means we go on to another place after death.
4. People need guidelines to live. Religion helps people make everyday choices.

Christianity uses eash of these reasons to obtain adherents. It takes advantage of them.

Nez Dragon said:
Christianity is the most persecuted religion in this century, perhaps even throughout all of history. It is also one of the largest religions. In China the communist government persecutes Christianity, yet there are still a fair amount of Chinese Christians. Simply looking at its strength throughout history, I find it hard to believe that Christianity is a false belief.
The Christian numbers are falling. The number of people who profess "no religion" in The USA has doubled between 1990-2001. It went from 14.3 million people to 29.3 million.

Source: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm
 
T

teenonfire4him77

The Christian numbers are falling. The number of people who profess "no religion" in The USA has doubled between 1990-2001. It went from 14.3 million people to 29.3 million.
there is about what? 6 BILLION people in the world?

It is taking advantage of someone because it is offering them something they cannot refuse in their lowest hour. It has a condition to this offering; believe in what it tells you to. This is not free will and therefore it has taken advantage of the person.
Look, you keep believing whatever you want about my 'classic' example ok? Clearly your heart is closed, and have no desire to know God...and thats on you.
the only thing thats left to say to you is; I will pray for you
 
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G

gdalton

Alex, why such contempt for people who believe in God? It seems you have some anger built up over religion. I don't see why you try and belittle someone’s life experiences by saying things like religion is taking advantage of them. If religion makes you a better person and helps you find a purpose in life then why would you want to dissuade someone from that? Even if you do not believe in God, are you helping by trying to convince others?

I to was raised in a very religious environment, I went to private school, I even led bible studies, and I to learned to be an atheist during that time because the church could not answer all of my questions without deferring to faith. I abandoned my beliefs for a long time, but the last couple of years have changed my mind, not because of difficulty but because of reason.

Ok here is my reasoning (this proves nothing but it's how I look at things):
Science doesn't create laws it finds them, so the question is not "how do things work?" but rather "how where the laws made for things to work?" or "where did these laws come from?" I just can't make myself believe this whole universe is an accident. My personal belief is that God is in everything, you, me, the matter that makes the universe from the furthest star to the smallest neutron and all the things we have yet to discover.

Religion helps a lot of people just like Teen and Lee and many more, I don't see that as taken advantage of someone, I see it as helping.
 

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Snoozin said:
... the old adage, "The absence of proof is not proof of absence."
Hey, I like that, and I have added it to my collection of quotables!

...

Snoozin said:
... I just get bogged down in how horrible certain aspects of life are, why are so many people so cruel to others? Why does God let that happen?
You first question there could have *many* answers, but most of us do whatever we believe best for ourselves, and some folks believe it is okay or at lest somehow justifiable to do that at the expense of others. But in other cases, one person's "cruel" is another's "normal", and either or even both could be wrong to one degree or another.

Why is cruelty allowed? Personally, I do not claim to have even a clue. However, I do know it will be recompensed, and that we bear witness of our sovereign and just Father when we accept His grace to bear it.

Snoozin said:
And why do I feel *closer* to God when I try to help people then when I am actually *thinking* about Him? :confused:
Oh, how you have just brought a fresh sparkle into my morning ...

Because that is precisely what He wants us/you to do! And no matter whatever else you might ever do, be sure to keep doing precisely that!

That idea was first presented to me when I was about nine years old, but it was to be in my early thirties that I finally heard it another way:

"Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs" ("A.A.", pages 20-21, emphasis added).

Our Abba-Father's greatest blessings are found along that very path ...

Peace to you.
 
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leejosepho

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alex said:
This is a classic example of religion taking advantage of someone. You were in a seriously low point in your life it seems (sorry to hear about all the terrible times you went through). You had a void in your life that needed to be filled. Religion did that for you. People become very desperate for unconditional love at all times. They turn to religion to obtain this. Sounds like this is what happened here.

How does this prove the existence of a god?
You make a valid point, Alex: It does not. With or without any direct connection to "religion", as such, kind people abound. And if you were to add the word "could" to your initial statement, as in "This *could* be a classic example of ...", I would even be willing to agree that it *could* be.

Nevertheless, teenonfire4him77, I am fully convinced you should keep right on doing what you are doing at the moment and along the way learn to look only up.



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leejosepho

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alex said:
The burden of proof falls on the believer, not a doubter. There is no empirical or rational evidence for the existence of a god. The lack of that kind of evidence is proof itself.
If you are interested and willing, Alex, I would like to have a quiet discussion about the things just said.

To my own and strictly personal satisfaction, I have both observed and experienced sufficient amounts of empirical, visceral and rational evidence to have YHWH's existence proved or "proofed" to me ... and as you might have heard me say elsewhere, I do not presume that evidence convincing for anyone else.

Since I do not know the best way to word this question, please feel free to do with it as you wish, if at all:

When a "believer" even casually mentions "God", why do others immediately demand proof of His existence?
 

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Nez Dragon said:
... Have you read the Bible alex? If not, you should shut up. If you do not know what you are talking about, there is no point in listening to you.
Personally, I am of a completely different opinion:

Whether or not you have ever read anything at all makes no difference to me whatsoever, Alex. In my own opinion, you should speak up clearly and without interference, as others of us are definitely interested in hearing what you have to say.
 

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Nez Dragon said:
If religion helps so many people get through the tough times in their lives, and it gives people strength, and helps some of the most miserable people completely change their lives for the better, how is it taking advantage of them?
This is how: Being helped through the tough times and receiving strength and being helped to change one's life for the better does not equal reconciliation.

Nez Dragon said:
Christianity is the most persecuted religion in this century, perhaps even throughout all of history.
You might be correct there, Nez, but I would suggest a very close, careful and deep look at the centuries of persecution of Yisra'el before etching any such statement in stone.
 

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alex said:
... from Epicurus:

"If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another."

Do these seem logical? Are they valid points?

teenonfire4him77 said:
God can't help those who pray with hearts full of hate ...
I admire your great and deep passion here, teenonfire4him77, but YHWH actually can - He is quite able to - help anyone at all, and for any reason that pleases *Him*.

However, and at least since He has plenty of everything to go around anyway, it does not please Him for any one or more of us human beings to *ever* personally gain anything at the expense (loss) of any other(s).

For example: It once made even my own selfish skin "crawl" or whatever to hear a nationally-known and professional competitor "thank 'God'" for his victory/win (over others) that particular day.

Rhetorically: Only the making of a one-ended stick would/could have been more impossible.
 

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alex said:
... I have read the Bible. I went to a Christian School. That is were I learned to be an Atheist.
Simply curious because I have never before heard that from anyone, I ask that you might share at least a glimpse of how you learned at a Christian School to be an Atheist?
 

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leejosepho said:
Oh, how you have just brought a fresh sparkle into my morning
Because that is precisely what He wants us/you to do! And no matter whatever else you might ever do, be sure to keep doing precisely that!...
LOL! Thank you! It's the only way I can stay marginally sane, trying to bring little bits of happiness in a truly screwed up world. Just trying now to get faith on a more consistent basis rather than it being such an overwhelming struggle at times...

Peace to you as well. :smile:
 
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