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Prove God's Existence

leejosepho said:
Simply curious because I have never before heard that from anyone, I ask that you might share at least a glimpse of how you learned at a Christian School to be an Atheist?

I learned the teachings of the Bible in school and they made no sense to me. After realizing that the stories in the Bible were not probable (maybe even impossible) I decided to ignore the stories of that book and believe in a god without it. Then I got a little older and learned the concepts of science and they made more sense to me. Science was a more possible way of explaining everything around me so I stopped believing in a god all together. Science offered evidence where the Bible could not. My mind understood the teachings of biology, physics, etc. and could not comprehend religion any longer. I learned all this as I went to Christian school. Religion and science were taught side by side and science had more basis. When I gave up religion, a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders. I felt like I could be myself.

Of course my parents were very upset to learn I was an Atheist. They spent a ton of money towards my Christian education. But that is a risk that is taken when people impose their beliefs on others, even there own children.
 
only problem is that in proving htere is a god, one must define what God is. That in itself is such a large undertaking (and also requires much proof) that proving His existance is near an impossibility.
 
nkgupta80 said:
only problem is that in proving htere is a god, one must define what God is. That in itself is such a large undertaking (and also requires much proof) that proving His existance is near an impossibility.
That is to say that the reality of God's existence rest solely on the ability of your finite mind to infinately understand it.
 
Snoozin said:
Very poignant story too, Galenrox. We are more similar than you know. My life is good now, too, only problem is I keep waiting for the bottom to drop out. :(

If you wait for the bottom to fall out, then it will. I truly believe that every person is in control of their own lives. If you want a life that is fulfilling, then it will be. Ambition is obtainable by all people. Sounds like you need to do some serious searching into your own mind. Take some time to yourself and figure out who you are. Allow yourself to find out what it is you exactly want and everything should fall into place from there. If the bottom still falls out, be there to catch yourself. We all fall into low points. The trick is to learn from them. Stand up, dust yourself off, and move on.
 
alex said:
Reread my post. I said nothing about "people in the world." Those numbers are from people in this country. But since you brought it up, these numbers reflect a trend that is happening in all major countries in the world.
I know you didnt say 'people in the world', because you had only mentioned stats of America...which i don't see the point in why you did.
I mean just cause there is an increase in athiesm isnt going to cause me to 'jump on the bandwagon' on deny God.
 
Logical Clariority: If God is Defined as "A Omnipotent, Wholly Good Being" And Yet Evil Exists, Then It is logically impossible for God to exist while being Omnipotent and Wholly Good. So Thats a Logical Slap for you people out there, that version of god is simply impossible. There can be other versions though ;)
 
Snoozin said:
Let me just say now that I really want to believe in God. I do believe, off and on. Usually losing faith in extraordinarily hard times, which is when an individual is supposed to believe in God. So my question is, if you believe in God, how did you get to that point? How do you prove He exists?

The problem is that faith is belief without logical proof or material evidence.

I would ask why you want to believe?
 
It is not empirically possible to prove either the existence of a God or the absence of a God. This is why religion is a faith-based initiative, and why God is proposed to exist in a metaphysical realm. There are excellent philosophical arguments both for and against the existence of a deistic entity. Ultimately, either an acceptence of, or a denial of God... resides within each individual.


 
Snoozin said:
Thank you Viper, you are very kind. I actually have 3 Bibles (different versions), the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, the Talmud, and the Qur'an. :smile: But I will definitely re-read the Gospel of John.

Snoozy,

I don’t mean to offend you in any way. If I do offend, I do it not with an evil heart, but with a heart filled with love for you. God isn’t the God of confusion, but a God of love and clarity. I understand your search for the Living God, but much like any search you can only find what you’re looking for in the proper places. To place things into perspective, as much as you may search you will never find an eagle on the bottom of the sea. To find an eagle you must look for it in it’s habitat…the sky, a tree, a mountain.

My dearest friend, God is already written on your heart. He is calling your name. He is asking you to come out of the darkness, come into his bosom so he can hold you, love you. Unfortunately satan has placed many roads before us. Hoping, probing us to choose his path. There is only one road leading to our Almighty God. This road is a light, a beacon to him who loves us. The path I speak of, the only way to God is through our Lord and our Savior, Jesus, The Christ.

When I speak of his Holy Word, I speak of the New and the Old Testament…The Holy Bible. When I witness, I witness Christ. Here is a link for a free online Bible…http://www.blueletterbible.org/ My offer still stands, I will be over joyed to send one to you if you wish. I have been praying for you and Timequake. If either of you ever wanted, it would be a pleasure to pray with you on the phone, you could call me collect if you wish. If either of you want, I will study his word with you through emails.

Love in Christ our Lord
Daniel
 
alex said:
You pointed out that you wanted a quiet discussion. Have I been yelling?

Thank you for your several responses, Alex, and no, certainly not! And for the record, I only made mention of "quiet discussion" to try to let you know I would try to help keep this one from becoming like some of my discussions with others.

Here combining my question and your response:

alex said:
[When a "believer" even casually mentions "God", ... others immediately demand proof of His existence ...]
Because this is a debate club. There is a time and a place for debate of religious issues. This is it.
My aunt is an absolute believer ... and never have I asked her for proof ...
I do not expect proof of a god's existence where it is not appropriate as it is here.

Understood as to setting, but I was meaning more to ask why people even "demand proof" at all. For you or for anyone else, I am inclined to believe that demand at least sometimes stems from something like this:

alex said:
How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.

In other words, maybe some people want proof *before* they believe? If so, I would share that I eventually *began* to believe after first being but willing *to* believe, and to act on my “desire for proof” by doing a little "taste and see" investigation or “experimentation":

"Oh, taste and see that YHWH is good; Blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!" (Psalm 34:8)

But of course, I definitely understand there are many reasons people either cannot or will not always do that.

alex said:
With that out of the way, I will answer your question in general terms.

People ask for proof because without it, statements are just empty statements. If I came to you and told you that I found an alien, what would be your first impulse? You would want proof of it probably by seeing it yourself. Would you believe it without that proof? Expecting evidence is only natural. I cannot believe anything without experiencing it with my own senses and that is rightly so.

Again understood, and yes, I would say essentially the same: Either show your alien or offer some way to “proof” your claim of having found one. But when it comes to the matter of “God”, would you not agree that many people are insisting He does *not* exist even before someone else might even get to ask, “Wanna see?”

In my own case, at least some people enjoy hearing about my recovery from alcoholism – I can tell quite a sad-or-funny story, take your pick, with my evidence presented throughout – right up to the time I answer somebody’s “How?” question by mentioning “God” ... and then they immediately insist *everything* I am saying is nothing but a bunch of hooey. In other words, “expecting evidence” is not the issue for people already refusing to believe an “alien” of any kind exists anywhere, and who “demand proof” they have no intention of considering.

Posting this for now, I return to reading your responses ...
 
alex said:
... I have read the Bible. I went to a Christian School. That is where I learned to be an Atheist.
---

I learned the teachings of the Bible in school ...
Then I got a little older and learned the concepts of science ...
My mind understood the teachings of biology, physics, etc. and could not comprehend religion any longer. I learned all this as I went to Christian school. Religion and science were taught side by side ...
When I gave up religion, a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders. I felt like I could be myself.

Of course my parents were very upset to learn I was an Atheist. They spent a ton of money towards my Christian education. But that is a risk that is taken when people impose their beliefs on others, even their own children.

Thank you for that insight into your life experience so far. Either the folks at that school are to be commended for not using some form of mind control to mold you into their particular version of a “cute, little Christian” when you first got there, or you were somehow protected from that kind of thing if they were trying to "church"-school you.

Question: Were there then any or many “outside influences” – friends, peers, neighbors, a librarian – either affecting or effecting your interpretations and understandings of things toward either side of the religion-science debate?

alex said:
I learned the teachings of the Bible in school ...
Religion and science were taught side by side ...

Do you distinguish at all between “the teachings of the Bible” and “religion”?

alex said:
... my parents were very upset to learn I was an Atheist. They spent a ton of money towards my Christian education. But that is a risk that is taken when people impose their beliefs on others, even their own children.

Since at least my father was a tyrannical Christian, it is believable to me that Christianity actually could have been being literally “imposed on you” by your parents, but is it at least possible their ultimately being “very upset” had more to do with mere assumption or expectation on their part? Today, neither of my parents are at all pleased with me – they are *quite* disappointed and even nasty at times – because I have rejected Christianity and will not pretend we have some kind of “life on the side” to share, but I know their silence toward me – how about yours? – comes primarily from their being afraid to even listen.
 
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Correction and apology:

While working in plain text in my word processor, I missed the fact that the following was actually posted by Snoozin and quoted by Alex ...

Snoozin said:
... I have a question for you, [Alex,] since I'm assuming you don't believe in God. How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
 
This question is impossible to answer...
No proof of existence, no proof of non-existence.
You will never know until you die, so believe what you feel is the truth.
 
leejosepho said:
Thank you for your several responses, Alex, and no, certainly not! And for the record, I only made mention of "quiet discussion" to try to let you know I would try to help keep this one from becoming like some of my discussions with others.

Here combining my question and your response:



Understood as to setting, but I was meaning more to ask why people even "demand proof" at all. For you or for anyone else, I am inclined to believe that demand at least sometimes stems from something like this:



In other words, maybe some people want proof *before* they believe? If so, I would share that I eventually *began* to believe after first being but willing *to* believe, and to act on my “desire for proof” by doing a little "taste and see" investigation or “experimentation":

"Oh, taste and see that YHWH is good; Blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!" (Psalm 34:8)

But of course, I definitely understand there are many reasons people either cannot or will not always do that.



Again understood, and yes, I would say essentially the same: Either show your alien or offer some way to “proof” your claim of having found one. But when it comes to the matter of “God”, would you not agree that many people are insisting He does *not* exist even before someone else might even get to ask, “Wanna see?”

In my own case, at least some people enjoy hearing about my recovery from alcoholism – I can tell quite a sad-or-funny story, take your pick, with my evidence presented throughout – right up to the time I answer somebody’s “How?” question by mentioning “God” ... and then they immediately insist *everything* I am saying is nothing but a bunch of hooey. In other words, “expecting evidence” is not the issue for people already refusing to believe an “alien” of any kind exists anywhere, and who “demand proof” they have no intention of considering.

Posting this for now, I return to reading your responses ...

Did you become a "reborn" after alcoholism?
 
leejosepho said:
Thank you for that insight into your life experience so far. Either the folks at that school are to be commended for not using some form of mind control to mold you into their particular version of a “cute, little Christian” when you first got there, or you were somehow protected from that kind of thing if they were trying to "church"-school you.

Question: Were there then any or many “outside influences” – friends, peers, neighbors, a librarian – either affecting or effecting your interpretations and understandings of things toward either side of the religion-science debate?



Do you distinguish at all between “the teachings of the Bible” and “religion”?



Since at least my father was a tyrannical Christian, it is believable to me that Christianity actually could have been being literally “imposed on you” by your parents, but is it at least possible their ultimately being “very upset” had more to do with mere assumption or expectation on their part? Today, neither of my parents are at all pleased with me – they are *quite* disappointed and even nasty at times – because I have rejected Christianity and will not pretend we have some kind of “life on the side” to share, but I know their silence toward me – how about yours? – comes primarily from their being afraid to even listen.

No outside influences. I knew only people that believed in a god. I got to Atheism on my own.
 
alex said:
Did you become a "reborn" after alcoholism?

Wow! Until this moment, I had long forgotten about that question which, with my twenty-five-year Christian past, really used to bother me. But yes, I believe I would say that.
 
alex said:
No outside influences. I knew only people that believed in a god. I got to Atheism on my own.

I almost worded my post to include that possibility, but I was reasonably sure you would say so, if so.
 
Snoozin said:
... I really want to believe in God ...
... if you believe in God, how did you get to that point?
How do you prove [for yourself that] He exists?
...
I am very happy (maybe a little envious) that you have found something to bring peace to your life ...
...
I guess I just get bogged down in how horrible certain aspects of life are ...
...
I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
...
I tend to be too logical for my own good in matters of faith ...
...
I want to know the truth of what really *is.* I don't want to find a satisfactory rationale for what I want to *believe.* Does that make any sense?

Greetings, Susan.

Yes, it makes complete sense: You are looking for something or for “someone” that will absolutely not let you down (once again?) in the end, correct?

I had initially written to you, “He proves Himself at the personal level when, one by one, we who become desperate and/or at least willing reach out to Him and leave the results to Him”, and I now see I might have done a little better than that.

First, there is something you will have to get out the way ...

... in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. ~ Anne Frank

... and the reason for that is this:

“If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome [our struggles with life], many of us would have [done so] long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us ...
“We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but ...
“Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.”

In other words, any philosophy or viewpoint including the idea that we humans are inherently good and simply in need of a little help or direction ...

Understand? Rhetorically: If that is true, then why did I ever, and why do you now seek “Him”?

Snoozin said:
... in extraordinarily hard times ... is when an individual is supposed to believe in God.
...
My life is good now ... only problem is I keep waiting for the bottom to drop out.

If the bottom does drop out, that will likely be the result of an overall combination of things, but a key factor will definitely be witting or even unwitting dependence upon people who first also believed they were inherently good, or somehow “good at heart” ... and there is much more to talk about there. But if I might back up a bit to your “believe in hard times” thought:

Many years ago, I watched a movie in which a man swam far out to sea for the purpose of suicide by drowning, but he changed his mind before actually going down. Afraid he might not make it back to shore, he began praying and making all kinds of promises ... promises that eventually began diminishing in direct proportion to his nearness to the beach, and by the time he eventually reached shore, rested for a bit and walked away, he was down to something like, “Hey, thanks, and maybe see you later if something comes up again.”

Abba-Father is not looking for foul-weather-only friends.

Snoozin said:
Have I ever completely given myself over to God? Probably not, although I have tried ...

My swimmer anecdote hopefully makes a point, yet I realize it does not fit you precisely: “I have tried ...”

Snoozin said:
I feel closer spiritually to Judaism and Islam even though I was raised Christian.
I must pray directly to God; in my heart I feel as if Jesus Christ, although I respect him very much, is an intercessor.

Generally speaking, you have things in the right order there: Judaism – Islam – Christianity. And personally, I can assure you that what you are looking for is what actually preceded Judaism: the “Sinai experience”. For, it is there that YHWH’s Power to deliver, His Love in provision, and right fellowship (with Him and others) and worship was made known in a way that is both understandable and actually doable.

Timequake said:
I too have felt this way before. I look at others with their unfaltering faith and wonder how they do it? With nothing to hold on to but their beliefs how can they be so committed to something that could so easily turn out to be a lie. But more than anything I am jealous, I want to be that kind of person, I want to put everything I know aside and just have one moment of that clarity I just can't seem to grasp. It's a struggle, I believe in God but I have little faith in God... if that makes any sense at all.

Greetings to you also, Timequake, and I have been in that very place. Then having nothing but mere beliefs, I spent the first twenty-five years of my life being “a good Christian” ... then “believing in beliefs” – religion – all proved to be a big lie when my life fell completely apart (mostly at my own hand, I later saw). But since that time, and with several years of insane living in-between, I have had that “moment of clarity” you have mentioned, and it now continues to grow and expand ... even to this very moment!

Snoozin said:
In a psychology class in high school, we learned about a mental/emotional state called an epiphany, where you feel outrageously happy, but it's bigger than that, it has to do with feeling like one with the universe.

Actually, the “peace that passes understanding” comes from or through a oneness with YHWH, Abba-Father, Himself:

“Rejoice in יהוה always, again I say, rejoice! Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Master is near. Do not worry at all, but in every matter, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to Elohim. And the peace of Elohim, which surpasses all understanding, shall guard your hearts and minds through Messiah יהושע” (Philippians 4:4-7).

Snoozin said:
I *do* feel that way, but it's when I'm thinking of the concepts of good and justice and truth. If I can feel so wonderful thinking about these concepts, why don't I *feel* that way when thinking / praying / talking / wondering about God?

Because your desire to actually experience those things has yet to be fully satisfied.

Snoozin said:
Sometimes I see Him so clearly, but those times are few and far between ...

Oh, but once you get (or have been) to the mountain ...

Timequake said:
... not all people can "look inside themselves" and feel the presence of God. This includes you and me. It makes me wonder, did God just forget to put this idea into our minds? Are those who lack this idea, predestined to take his word for it rather than feel it? This natural thought just doesn't seem so natural. If these a priori are human instincts, why is the instinct of the perfect being not found in all humans?

Personally, that is a question I am still trying to answer myself, but I do know there is *some* kind of thought or “instinct” or calling present here or you would not be talking about it, and that whatever kind you have is sufficient to act upon.

Snoozin said:
I read somewhere that people who have strong faith have a more active region in the ventral prefrontal cortex of the brain (or something like that).

Well! Might that explain why the “doc” once put me on Thorazine?!

Snoozin said:
The mere fact that there might be some physiological reason for faith, something embedded in humans in general, would explain a lot. Like why every society/culture in every time period recorded by humans has some sort of concept of God and/or afterlife. I suppose in a way, even though I don't feel the faith that strongly, this idea is as close as I've come to proving God's existence ...

Sounds fine to me.

Snoozin said:
... when I was going to church as a child, God was emphasized way more than Jesus Christ was ...

... just like in Scripture, and even by The Messiah, Master, Himself.

If I might ask: What church?

Belatedly: Shabbat Shalom.
 
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MrFungus420 said:
The problem is that faith is belief without logical proof or material evidence.

I would ask why you want to believe?

Why? Because this life's been so miserable I'm really hoping for an afterlife free of pain. Selfish, huh?
 
leejosepho said:
Greetings, Susan.

Yes, it makes complete sense: You are looking for something or for “someone” that will absolutely not let you down (once again?) in the end, correct?

I had initially written to you, “He proves Himself at the personal level when, one by one, we who become desperate and/or at least willing reach out to Him and leave the results to Him”, and I now see I might have done a little better than that.

First, there is something you will have to get out the way ...

Hello. :smile: Wow, you've give me a *lot* to think about here. Can I ask what you mean by the Sinai Experience? And how does this predate Judaism? Just curious....my knowledge of biblical history is not as good as it should be.

Also, I was intermittently brought up in the Episcopal Church in the 70s, when it was quite an anti-war activist church. Intermittently because my mother suffers from a lot of phobias including agoraphobia and would not take us out very often. So when I went to church it was because my grandmother took me. The services are different today. Not sure of the reason, pisky churches can be a bit weird at times anyway. :smile:
 
You can't prove he exists, but what other explanation is there for everything in the world.
 
People need to get one idea in there heads: There are diferent Interpretations of God/Gods.

The Term of a Wholly Good Omnipotent God in a world of Evil is clearly a impossible term and must be discarded if a person is rational.

Yet that does not mean divine things dont exist, there could be a god whos not purely good , or not omnipotent totally. Or many gods, or god "died" or such. There are many other explanations.

Good arguments for the Existence of The Divine exist, and so do Rational Arguments against Christianity and Islam views of God, which contradict themselves and thus cant be true.
 
teenonfire4him77 said:
Well lets see...For the first 10 years of my life i was molested by my brother, then by a church friend (We had gone to a AME church [African Methodist Epesicpal...basicly methodist tho] when i was little, but it was just someplace to go and play and hang out for me, nothing to do with God at all, wasn't even really interested with the 'big guy upstairs'). I was suicidel at 6, tried to kill myself at 9 and again at 13. Throughout that i had becoem a big girl, cause i didn't know how to cope so i turned to food, in that i went through brutal ridicule and even beaten just because i was big. I went into a severe depression at 12, turned to cutting and suicide attempt for a second time, tehn onto an eating disorder (bullemia). I went to therapy, had medicines and what not...i was improving a bit, but all the medicines did was cure my 'chemical imbalence' not my heart.
In 7th-8th grade, there was a lot of bullying going on, i was basiclly all alone (very small school, only 19 people in my class) All of the friends ive grown up with since kindergarden have turned on me.
But this year, a new girl, Jordann, came to our class...we talked every once in a while, but i was too busy in my own problems to try and get to know her. But somethign just told me to make friends with her...then one day i had gone over her house after school, and we realized how much in common we had, we had basicly a heart to heart. She was a pastors kid, and so i was liek ok thats cool...and she had told me of that point in ehr life where she choose to follow God on her own. I wasn't really interested at the time about anything to deal with God, cause at that time i was convinced that there was none, and if so, then ill just go to hell then cause i really didn't care.
Throughout the summer, we kept in touch, even as she went on her missions trip to Jamacia. Then when the next shcool year came, we went to different highschools...I had become a partyer, and i started drinking, but i never had sex, but the way teens dance now a days (esp. partys i went to) if was darned near sex, but with clothes on...but i started going to her youth group, and thats when my life started to change.

I saw the way she lived, with her struggles and triaumphs in the Lord, and it inspired me. She didn't try and talk to me about him, only if i wanted to, and the youth pastor then, Janele...was amazing. She showed me what true christ-like love was, I never felt that...not from anyone, not my parents...she actually cared about me! She could see right through the mask that ive learned to put on that made my life seem like it was great on the outside...and it opened my eyes and my heart to see that there is a God out there who loves me more then anything, and hates what ive been doing to myself, and wants to take my pains from me so I can live freely in his name.
At this point, I wanted to know the Lord. I wanted to feel the joy through the pain that everyone around me felt, I wanted to live an honerable life and have the relationship with Jesus that is so precious.
So my first major turning point experirence was at Aquire the Fire, it's a convention that is done all over the US. to teach kids about Christ. (A branch of Teen Mania- www.battlecry.com )
It was there where I experienced Christ breaking through the walls in my heart, and i just gave my all to him. Right then and there, I decided the live for him...that is where i got saved, and many other people in my youth group did too.
Then the opprotunity to go on a missions trip with Teen Mania to South Africa came up, and i jumped on it. This past summer, I learned so much on taht trip, i grew so much more in my relationship...bonded with people who have been true christians (meaning not just by name, but by life) longer then I have...and they keep me accountable as I do them.
Just because i have embarked on thi new path in Jesus, doesn't mean i wont ever slip back into my old behaviors(Lord knows i have)...but having friends who keep my accountable and are always there for a shoulder to cry on when the devil trips me up and i give into the temptation that he gives me, and i feel the incredible guilt about it.
Since I've gotten back to school, ive found it a bit hard to fit in, and heck, i might even loose some of my friends soon...but you know what? That probably the best thing, cause as much as I want to reach out to them, i don't want to force them and i don't need them bringing me back down to the place where I used to be. And I always have my church friends...who are as on fire for the Lord as I am.
No matter what anyone tells me, or what kind of 'proof' they give me to disprove the exsistence of God...it wont sway me. I know what he has done for me in my life, because I saught him will all my heart...and he has blessed me 10 fold because of it.:cool:

And there ya go:lol:

that post is inspiring... I am truly happy that you have found your happiness. if there is a god, that is what its about, and I have found that through another way. But back to the question at hand- to prove god is impossible, in what you want to seek. If you want true physical proof you will never have it. if you want the next best thing- that story is it. I too have tried to beleive in god, but in the end, I chose to deify myself and that made me happy, because I understood myself, instead of having to hope someone else up there was listening, I could listen to myself and deliver myself from anything. (thank you anton la vey) so thats my take... dont force urself to beleive in something you cant
 
Snoozin said:
Hello. :smile: Wow, you've give me a *lot* to think about here. Can I ask what you mean by the Sinai Experience? And how does this predate Judaism? Just curious....my knowledge of biblical history is not as good as it should be.

By "the Sinai experience", I mean something like this ...

Imagine being a descendent of Abraham who knew about a promise that your people would become many and great, but you find yourself completely trapped - some folks might say snared - making bricks in an evil place. Then one of your own people you had thought was one of "them" shows up and gets the Pharoah sufficiently rattled to send you out into the desert ...

Those folks had been delivered from bondage just as surely as that same Power can deliver anyone to this very day ...

Those folks were provided for just as surely as we can be provisioned today ...

Those folks learned to live in a "fellowship and worship" experience that is just as available to us today:

"Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" ("A.A.", page 63).

Delivered, reconciled, transformed ...

... that is "the Sinai experience".

And, some folks would say Judaism was drawn from that.
 
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like the author of this thread, most people start to disbelieve in god when hard times come. you have to realize that god doesnt create bad things. bad things are simply the absence of good things. darkness is hte absence of light, hunger is the absence of food, disease is the absence of health.
 
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