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Playing The Patriotism Card

Liberal rhetoric goes from legitimate dissent to siding with the enemy when they:


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aquapub

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Liberals often complain that conservatives play the patriotism card merely to silence any opposition to whatever they are trying to accomplish, and then they say things like this:

“Our country is founded on a sham: our forefathers were slave-owning rich white guys who wanted it their way. So when I see the American flag, I go, ‘Oh my God, you’re insulting me.’ That you can have a gay pride parade on Christopher Street in New York, with naked men and women on a float cheering, ‘We’re here, we’re queer’-that’s what makes my heart swell. Not the flag, but a gay naked man or woman burning the flag. I get choked up with pride.” –Janeane Garofalo.

So, never mind that the founders introduced liberty to the world; never mind that they pioneered the liberation of people from tyrannical monarchies and dictatorships to establish an authority by consent of the governed …They didn’t get it just perfect from go, so they were horrible people and their ideas need to be disassociated from everything we do, right?

Two hundred years from now, I’m sure there will still be a liberal segment of the population who, like ours, ignorantly lashes out at earlier generations for not being as “advanced” as them, but the simple fact is, many of the founders wrote that they regretted having the economic need for slavery too much to have been able to abolish it from the onset. Many of their writings clarify that they knew it to be the abomination it was and hoped it could be done away with as soon as possible.

Garofalo’s uneducated smears typify the left’s rhetoric.

Liberals want people to believe their statements are reflective merely of them having a different vision for this country, that they are still patriotic, and that they still support the troops, but one needs not look any further than their own words to be convinced of their contempt. This is about the left’s simplistic, uneducated, hysterically unreasonable interpretation of the awful things America stands for; it is about hatred for this country and the left’s determination to undo everything it stands for.

Incidentally, the reason I chose the specific options in the poll is not only that liberal columnists, pundits, and politicians do these things, but also that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has been done-most of them routinely-by liberals just on this site alone.
 

talloulou

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To be fair to liberals.....though I would readily agree that some do seem to hate America.....your options were worded in such a way that it was impossible to not pick them. If they are falsely portraying this and that then yeah that's helping the enemy and showing hate for America. However if they really genuinely believe this and that and have evidence to make their points valid that's a totally different story.
 

Kandahar

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Some people clearly do have an irrational hatred of America, in that any actions of tyrants anywhere in the world are somehow blamed on America. Are the Palestinians suicide bombers? It must be America's fault for supporting Israel. Are the Iranians building nukes? It's America's fault for letting India have them. Taliban oppressing women? That's right, it's America's fault for supporting them against the Soviets over 20 years ago.

This kind of bile certainly amounts to siding with the enemy. Some of the things you listed, however, do not. People aren't siding with the enemy if they have pessimistic thoughts on the situation in Iraq, they're being realistic. People aren't siding with the enemy if they criticize what George Bush has done to "protect" the country since 9/11, which is nothing.
 

aquapub

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Kandahar said:
People aren't siding with the enemy if they criticize what George Bush has done to "protect" the country since 9/11, which is nothing.


That is outrageously false. The Taliban, the Patriot Act, listening to international calls from terror suspects, just for starters.
 

Simon W. Moon

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OMFG!1! teh libruls sux0r5!1!1!

Do you honestly expect this wankfest of an OP to inspire debate?

Or, did you intend to just circle up w/ some like minded pop-cons?
 

Kandahar

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aquapub said:
That is outrageously false.

That's your opinion. And even if you were right about that, it doesn't mean that people who disagree are siding with the enemy.

aquapub said:
The Taliban,

I agree that we needed to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11. But the way it turned out, it was more an act of vengeance than a proactive approach to make the world a better place. Afghanistan is still largely run by warlords, including many sympathetic to the Taliban. International terrorism has hardly waned since the Afghanistan invasion.

aquapub said:
the Patriot Act,

How has that made us safer?

aquapub said:
listening to international calls from terror suspects,

You mean without a warrant, in defiance of the law? How has that made us safer than obtaining a warrant would have? Or if you're just talking about listening to international calls from terrorists in general, we've been doing that for decades.
 

aquapub

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Kandahar said:
1 That's your opinion. And even if you were right about that, it doesn't mean that people who disagree are siding with the enemy.

2 I agree that we needed to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11. But the way it turned out...International terrorism has hardly waned since the Afghanistan invasion.

3 How has that made us safer?

4 You mean without a warrant, in defiance of the law? How has that made us safer than obtaining a warrant would have? Or if you're just talking about listening to international calls from terrorists in general, we've been doing that for decades.

1 I don't accuse people of siding with the enemy unless they lie to protect the enemy. I leave room for disagreement and gray areas as long as it stays honest.

2 The goal in Afghanistan was not to achieve some magic number of terrorist attacks. It was to uproot known terror-sponsors, as with Saddam.

3 It is common knowledge that roving wiretaps is the only reason we are now able to keep up with the terrorists. Before them, we were fighting a digital war with analogue technology.

Furthermore, we can detain terror suspects with less red tape. It is asinine to try to prevent mass murder by following the softball rules of criminal investigation as opposed to the rules of enemies at war. This is a core difference between Democrats and Republicans that keeps costing Democrats election after election. Democrats want to keep treating terrorists like criminals-the ineffective way we treated them for a decade leading up to 9/11 (pre-9/11 mindset)-while Republicans want to treat them as enemies.

Our way makes us safer.

And lastly, the ability of our government to now keep track of who is reading what in public libraries and such protects us by putting terrorists on the radar.

4 I was just talking about listening to international calls from terror suspects-which Democrats largely oppose. And having to get a regular FISA warrant can take long enough-with all the red tape and signatures required-that terror suspects CAN get away. And there is room in the law for exceptions that pertain to urgent national security issues, which terrorism clearly qualifies as.
 

Kandahar

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aquapub said:
3 It is common knowledge that roving wiretaps is the only reason we are now able to keep up with the terrorists. Before them, we were fighting a digital war with analogue technology.

OK, so we can get a warrant.

aquapub said:
Furthermore, we can detain terror suspects with less red tape. It is asinine to try to prevent mass murder by following the softball rules of criminal investigation as opposed to the rules of enemies at war.

That's a very very thin line, especially since the people flying planes into buildings are most likely not the same people that were fighting Americans on the battlefields of Derkaderkastan a few months before. If the president decides to declare "war on murder" or "war on robbery" or "war on crime in general," will the same standards apply to anyone suspected of any crime?

aquapub said:
This is a core difference between Democrats and Republicans that keeps costing Democrats election after election. Democrats want to keep treating terrorists like criminals-the ineffective way we treated them for a decade leading up to 9/11 (pre-9/11 mindset)-while Republicans want to treat them as enemies.

And what makes you so sure that one way is more effective than the other? And before you tell me "no terrorist attacks on American soil since 9/11," I'd like you to compare that to the number of terrorist attacks on American soil in an equal span of time BEFORE 9/11. The number is zero in both cases.

aquapub said:
Our way makes us safer.

You have no evidence for that.

aquapub said:
And lastly, the ability of our government to now keep track of who is reading what in public libraries and such protects us by putting terrorists on the radar.

You really think that keeping a list of everyone who checks out The Anarachist's Cookbook, or Mein Kampf, or Jihad For Dummies, will yield an accurate "radar" for terrorists?

aquapub said:
4 I was just talking about listening to international calls from terror suspects-which Democrats largely oppose. And having to get a regular FISA warrant can take long enough-with all the red tape and signatures required-that terror suspects CAN get away.

That's not true. FISA warrants can be obtained within a few hours and are practically rubberstamps for the executive as it is. For the president to fail to obtain one means he either 1) has no evidence at all of any suspected wrongdoing, or 2) has contempt for the entire system of checks and balances.

aquapub said:
And there is room in the law for exceptions that pertain to urgent national security issues, which terrorism clearly qualifies as.

So who decides if a wiretap qualifies as a national security issue? The president? Where is the check and balance on this power? What's to stop him from wiretapping people he simply doesn't like?
 

jfuh

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This thread belongs in the basement, is there anything actually debateable when the poster just posts flame against differed perspectives? Dumb
 

disneydude

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I know....lets start a new poll here.

How many people think that this is the lamest,most sorry excuse for a poll posted on this site so far?

Come on dude.....if you want serious responses you should come up with a more serious thread.
 

jfuh

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I'm curious, are there any threads in this forum started by "Conservatives" such as aquapub, or KC, Jamesrage that are actual debates instead of relentless "screw you liberals" rhetoric?
 

jamesrage

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aquapub said:
Liberals often complain that conservatives play the patriotism card merely to silence any opposition to whatever they are trying to accomplish, and then they say things like this:

“Our country is founded on a sham: our forefathers were slave-owning rich white guys who wanted it their way. So when I see the American flag, I go, ‘Oh my God, you’re insulting me.’ That you can have a gay pride parade on Christopher Street in New York, with naked men and women on a float cheering, ‘We’re here, we’re queer’-that’s what makes my heart swell. Not the flag, but a gay naked man or woman burning the flag. I get choked up with pride.” –Janeane Garofalo.

So, never mind that the founders introduced liberty to the world; never mind that they pioneered the liberation of people from tyrannical monarchies and dictatorships to establish an authority by consent of the governed …They didn’t get it just perfect from go, so they were horrible people and their ideas need to be disassociated from everything we do, right?

Two hundred years from now, I’m sure there will still be a liberal segment of the population who, like ours, ignorantly lashes out at earlier generations for not being as “advanced” as them, but the simple fact is, many of the founders wrote that they regretted having the economic need for slavery too much to have been able to abolish it from the onset. Many of their writings clarify that they knew it to be the abomination it was and hoped it could be done away with as soon as possible.

Garofalo’s uneducated smears typify the left’s rhetoric.

Liberals want people to believe their statements are reflective merely of them having a different vision for this country, that they are still patriotic, and that they still support the troops, but one needs not look any further than their own words to be convinced of their contempt. This is about the left’s simplistic, uneducated, hysterically unreasonable interpretation of the awful things America stands for; it is about hatred for this country and the left’s determination to undo everything it stands for.

Incidentally, the reason I chose the specific options in the poll is not only that liberal columnists, pundits, and politicians do these things, but also that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has been done-most of them routinely-by liberals just on this site alone.


You forgot to add "falsely accuse our troops of targeting journalist in Iraq".
 

Simon W. Moon

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jfuh said:
I'm curious, are there any threads in this forum started by "Conservatives" such as aquapub, or KC, Jamesrage that are actual debates instead of relentless "screw you liberals" rhetoric?

IIRC, there have been a few pop-con threads that have been something more than (not "other than", but "more than") "Teh Libruls Suxx0rs"
 

tecoyah

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jfuh said:
I'm curious, are there any threads in this forum started by "Conservatives" such as aquapub, or KC, Jamesrage that are actual debates instead of relentless "screw you liberals" rhetoric?

.....................uh...................NO
 

Calm2Chaos

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UH oh................. looks like the libbys are getting uptight ....LOL
 

Indy

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lol. This whole thread has got to be a joke. Wow aquapub, you sure do know how to make a one sided poll.
 

steen

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aquapub said:
:rofl Yep, I think you're right. I've touched a nerve. :lol: I suppose the truth hurts.
Well, patent silliness is merely irritating at times. :roll:
 

jfuh

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aquapub said:
:rofl Yep, I think you're right. I've touched a nerve. :lol: I suppose the truth hurts.
Sorry to burst your bubble aqua, but being liberal, we're not conservatively up tight as to not have humor.
So when we see rediculous threads like this, it's saddening there are actually those that think like this, but then again much of the rant spewed is quite funny.
 

Indy

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so true, so true. In fact, I'm going to have a good laugh right now.... wait... here it comes..... wait for it!

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

That felt good.
 

afr0byte

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aquapub said:
Liberals often complain that conservatives play the patriotism card merely to silence any opposition to whatever they are trying to accomplish, and then they say things like this:

“Our country is founded on a sham: our forefathers were slave-owning rich white guys who wanted it their way. So when I see the American flag, I go, ‘Oh my God, you’re insulting me.’ That you can have a gay pride parade on Christopher Street in New York, with naked men and women on a float cheering, ‘We’re here, we’re queer’-that’s what makes my heart swell. Not the flag, but a gay naked man or woman burning the flag. I get choked up with pride.” –Janeane Garofalo.

And, it's wrong for her to be proud of what the U.S. has become, rather than being proud of the fact that the founding fathers were slave holders, how?

aquapub said:
So, never mind that the founders introduced liberty to the world; never mind that they pioneered the liberation of people from tyrannical monarchies and dictatorships to establish an authority by consent of the governed …They didn’t get it just perfect from go, so they were horrible people and their ideas need to be disassociated from everything we do, right?

Um, you're reading a lot in to a relatively short quote. Bias, maybe?

aquapub said:
Two hundred years from now, I’m sure there will still be a liberal segment of the population who, like ours, ignorantly lashes out at earlier generations for not being as “advanced” as them, but the simple fact is, many of the founders wrote that they regretted having the economic need for slavery too much to have been able to abolish it from the onset. Many of their writings clarify that they knew it to be the abomination it was and hoped it could be done away with as soon as possible.

Garofalo’s uneducated smears typify the left’s rhetoric.

Hahah, you're a nut. You seem to be saying slavery was a good thing, whatever.

aquapub said:
Liberals want people to believe their statements are reflective merely of them having a different vision for this country, that they are still patriotic, and that they still support the troops, but one needs not look any further than their own words to be convinced of their contempt. This is about the left’s simplistic, uneducated, hysterically unreasonable interpretation of the awful things America stands for; it is about hatred for this country and the left’s determination to undo everything it stands for.

Incidentally, the reason I chose the specific options in the poll is not only that liberal columnists, pundits, and politicians do these things, but also that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has been done-most of them routinely-by liberals just on this site alone.

HAHAHAHA, hilarious post.
 

Indy

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Originally Posted by aquapub
Garofalo’s uneducated smears typify the left’s rhetoric.

Um... when was the last time you looked at the statistics of college graduates and their political leanings? I hardly think that its the LEFT that's uneducated. Funny how the red states are almost always last in terms of education rankings. But no, I'm sure your right. The Left is uneducated... :rofl
 

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mnpollock said:
Originally Posted by aquapub
... when was the last time you looked at the statistics of college graduates and their political leanings? I hardly think that its the LEFT that's uneducated. Funny how the red states are almost always last in terms of education rankings. But no, I'm sure your right. The Left is uneducated... :rofl


Its true. Studies show an overwhelming correlation b/w education and political philosophy. The less educated you are the more likely you are to be conservative.
(and before I get attacked for not posting a link to show the uneducated the correlation, let me simply say, pick up any newspaper in any city across the country on the day following an election and look at the breakdown statistics and you will see what I am referring to).

That is not to say that there aren't many highly educated conservatives and less educated liberals...its simply the numbers when you look at the averages.

...but I'm sure that your comment will be attacked by the radical right-wingers on this board that will claim that it is the fault of the liberal colleges and liberal media "they they ain't got no lernin."
 

aquapub

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mnpollock said:
Originally Posted by aquapub
Garofalo’s uneducated smears typify the left’s rhetoric.

Um... when was the last time you looked at the statistics of college graduates and their political leanings? I hardly think that its the LEFT that's uneducated. Funny how the red states are almost always last in terms of education rankings. But no, I'm sure your right. The Left is uneducated... :rofl


-Blacks score at the very bottom of every aptitude/proficiency/knowledge test that has ever tracked race: 90%+ vote for Democrats.

-Criminals: vote 90%+ for Democrats.

-Hollywood celebrities almost without exception are high school or college dropouts: 90%+ vote for Democrats.

-Labor unions (legalized mafias that protect low rent-usually incompetent- workers): vote overwhelmingly for Democrats.

-College students (who are, by definition, uneducated, and usually unwise): vote for Democrats.

-It is well established that people become more conservative with age and experience: Once people have graduated college and had some real world experience, THEN they turn conservative.

-Conservative books sell like crazy, liberal books always bomb: Conservatives read, liberals don't.



Oh, but people who have recently spent a great deal of time in a hotbed of liberal rhetoric and sentiment seem to be liberal? And you want to use that to prop up this notion that liberals are educated and conservatives aren't? Spare me.
 

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afr0byte said:
And, it's wrong for her to be proud of what the U.S. has become, rather than being proud of the fact that the founding fathers were slave holders, how?


It is hysterically unreasonable to to fixate on a single flaw (especially as ignorantly as she does-you can tell she is a dropout) with the founders and use it to negate their astonishing accomplishment. No sensible or educated person would base their view of this country on whether or not the founders were willing (not to mention able) to undo every single kind of inequity known to man in one swoop while creating a free government. They couldn't have stayed in power if they even suggested creating a government that immediately uprooted all slavery...it would have destroyed the economy and they wouldn't have been able to create the republic at all. She hates this country, its founding, everything about it. She is for anything that undoes what it stands for. She is anti-white, anti-Christian, anti-male, anti-America...that's what this is about.

That is what's wrong with this. Of course, the bigger problem is that it needs explained to anyone.
 
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