Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest [W:13]

[Apocalypse]

In other words, in your mind, Israel should not exist.

That is the essence of his agenda on this subject. The belief that Israel shouldn't exist. He may deny that from time to time but then come back and make again statements like the ones in the comment you were quoting. Palestinians, international law, human rights, it's all diversion from the real agenda, which is the anger at the fact that Jews exist and in a state of their own.

 

[Evilroddy]

An interesting and well-balanced article here from the Christian Science Monitor about the Palestinian grass roots third way and the lack of effective compassion for Gazans killed and wounded in the Great March of Return.

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Mid...a-focus-on-Hamas-dampens-compassion-in-Israel

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

A bunch of baseless accusations, conspiracy theories, etc. I see why you'll find it appealing but logically speaking it's just more of the same brainwashed "I-heard-it-on-propaganda-dot-com" nonsense that takes a lot of blind hatred and racism from one to believe and buy into. Or in short, far-left radicals' bollocks.

Apocalypse:

https://972mag.com/israel-and-hamas-need-each-other-now-more-than-ever/125775/

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

More interesting background information in these two reports which call into question the veracity of Avigdor Lieberman's recent claims about Yaser Murtaja:

Israel says slain journalist was a Hamas spy, but U.S. had just approved a grant for his company. - Chicago Tribune

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...rael-was-detained-beaten-by-hamas-in-2015-ifj

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Tigerace117]

here -https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/244201


Hamas is trying to hide his military identity but we saw in the funeral who are his friends.

So in other words no actual "evidence" per say, just vague claims that he supposedly brought a drone into Gaza specifically for Hamas(as opposed to using it for, you know, his job as a photojournalist) vague claims that he provided "aid" and vague claims that he was involved in the "security apparatus".

Yep, we did see that Hamas is willing to exploit the death of a random journalist in order to gain additional support, and we did see that Israel apparently thinks journalists are a "clear and present danger".

 

[NO1]

NO 1:

You linked to an Arutz Sheva story, not me, so the critique stands. Walla! is closely tied to the Netenyahus through strong but informal links through its board of directors to the Likud establishment, so there is allegedly more grounds for skepticism there too.

That Hamas has a role in these protests is not denied. But the important point being ignored or deflected about the Great March of Return movement is that many other non-militant grass-root groups in Gaza have organised and are backing this movement too and thus challenging Hamas' traditional near-monopoly on dissent in Gaza since their ascendency to power in 2006. That scares Hamas and that also scares parts of the Israeli establishment too, because it is a lot easier to vilify, demonise, dehumanise and thus violently oppress a Gaza led by a militant organisation like Hamas than it would be to oppress a widespread resistance movement rooted in non-violent but fully confrontational civil society. The only way Israel can prevent or hinder an effective civil society based protest movement in Gaza from emerging is to use draconian measures and lethal force to provoke more Gazans into the arms of Hamas by radicalising them so that they can be demonised and thus crushed and kept in check by force. If protests and protesters become too legitimate looking to the wider world, Israel will become effectively disarmed and far more toothless in combating Palestinian resistance. Israel fears a Mahatma Gandhi emerging among the Palestinians far more than a modern day Nur al-Din or a Baybars.

But Gazan youth are waking up to the failure of their grandfathers' and fathers' generation of violent resistance and are beginning to understand that cameras, cell phones, drones, flash-mobs, non-centralized command structures, social media, meme culture and peer-to-peer communication with the rest of the world, coupled with obstinate, forceful but non-violent/minimally-violent resistance will threaten Israeli interests far more than sling stones or rockets ever could. Israel has realised this too and is now beginning to target non-violent dissent and resistance as if it was violence through judicial and military "thwarting" of non-violent resistance organisers. A civil and electronic intifada is a far more threatening prospect to Israel than a violent one could ever be.

Thus Israel, in a perverse way, needs Hamas (and Hamas needs Israel) in order to maintain the visceral hate, the cycle of violence and the resultant radicalisation of Gazans so as to marginalise non-violent/less-violent resistance from developing and to prevent the emergence of a legitimate civil society devoted to such resistance. Both Hamas and Israel need to justify the mutual violence which keeps both Gaza and Israel polarised and thus capable of socially acceptable oppression and slaughter, so there can be no room allowed for a third way by each powerful pole in the dispute.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evil roddy,

I can bring a link from walla news but it's in hebrew, anyway in the ongoing investigation against Netenyahu, the site has been accused of diversion in coverage for Bibi, not IDF. So it leaves your post as I said irrelevant.

The rest of your post is baseless assertions which are far away from the truth. It's very simple, Hamas is terrified about Israel new tech for detecting tunnels, So they unsuccesfuly trying other ways to invade Israel. The youth didn't wake up, Hamas barely convinced them to come burn tires, where are the milion people Hamas talked about. Hamas is in troubles and it canno't stop the building of the smart fance in Gaza.

 

[NO1]

So in other words no actual "evidence" per say, just vague claims that he supposedly brought a drone into Gaza specifically for Hamas(as opposed to using it for, you know, his job as a photojournalist) vague claims that he provided "aid" and vague claims that he was involved in the "security apparatus".

Yep, we did see that Hamas is willing to exploit the death of a random journalist in order to gain additional support, and we did see that Israel apparently thinks journalists are a "clear and present danger".

We already saw this tactics before - Examination of the Names of 17 Journalists and Media Personnel Whom the Palestinians Claim Were Killed in Operation Protective Edge.
Hamas using everything he can for his sickening goals- hospitals, schools, medics and journalists. Nothing new here.

 

[Apocalypse]

Apocalypse:

https://972mag.com/israel-and-hamas-need-each-other-now-more-than-ever/125775/

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

An opinion article, and? Needless to say that the article writer himself does not share your belief of evil Israel needing Hamas to continue to murder innocents. Such conspiracy theories and dehumanizations are entirely your own.

 

[Tigerace117]

We already saw this tactics before - Examination of the Names of 17 Journalists and Media Personnel Whom the Palestinians Claim Were Killed in Operation Protective Edge.
Hamas using everything he can for his sickening goals- hospitals, schools, medics and journalists. Nothing new here.

Your own article admits that the majority of the journalists killed were not, in fact, affiliated with Hamas.

 

[NO1]

Your own article admits that the majority of the journalists killed were not, in fact, affiliated with Hamas.

This article approve my point which is Hamas is using the tag "journalist" for his terror activities.

The findings of the examination indicate that the Palestinian list of 17 journalists killed during Operation Protective Edge was manipulative: it integrated names of civilians with names of terrorist operatives who served in information and media capacities. It incorporated the names of those who did in fact cover the fighting as correspondents and those who were killed randomly and were not serving as correspondents. It integrated those who were killed by the IDF in error with those in whose deaths the IDF had no involvement whatsoever. The objective was to give credence to the false claim that Israel deliberately killed a large number of media personnel and therefore was guilty of "crimes" for which the Palestinians demand the "murderers" be tried in international criminal courts. Manipulating the list of Palestinian journalists killed in Operation Protective Edge is another example of Hamas-led Palestinian tactics of deceit and fraud (as proved by the ITIC's findings of the examination of the lists of Palestinian fatalities). Thus, distorting the truth about the Palestinians killed in Operation Protective Edge has become a propaganda weapon in the Palestinian political, propaganda and legal war being waged against the State of Israel.

At least two of the media personnel on the list were not killed by the IDF. They were an Italian AP photojournalist and his translator, who were killed during one of the ceasefires while covering Gaza police engineers defusing unexploded ordnance in a location where there were no IDF soldiers (and Israel was not held responsible for their deaths). It is possible that others on the list were not killed by the IDF but the ITIC cannot prove it (that would necessitate thorough examinations of the events on the ground and comparisons with Palestinian reports in each case).

Eight out of seventeen of the journalists were terrorists. Two out the seven left didn't killed by the IDF (and probably more than two), so I guess the majority that have been killed were terrorists. Israel target terrorists not journalists, to suggest that is shameful.

 

[oneworld2]

A bunch of baseless accusations, conspiracy theories, etc. I see why you'll find it appealing but logically speaking it's just more of the same brainwashed "I-heard-it-on-propaganda-dot-com" nonsense that takes a lot of blind hatred and racism from one to believe and buy into. Or in short, far-left radicals' bollocks.

Israeli , as well as Palestinian/Arab , rejectionism ( of a fair and peaceful resolution to the conflict ) doesn't fall into the realm of conspiracy theory imo. There's ample evidence to support these notions. Unfortunately it is not seen by those people who , genuinely , suffer from hatred and racism.

 

[Apocalypse]

Israeli , as well as Palestinian/Arab , rejectionism ( of a fair and peaceful resolution to the conflict ) doesn't fall into the realm of conspiracy theory imo. There's ample evidence to support these notions. Unfortunately it is not seen by those people who , genuinely , suffer from hatred and racism.

I referred to Evil's post that is filled with conspiracy theories about evil Israel that could only be found logical by those lost to their hatred and racism, not to some notion that "both sides reject the peace efforts". You are quite awful at creating spins honestly.

 

[oneworld2]

That is the essence of his agenda on this subject. The belief that Israel shouldn't exist. He may deny that from time to time but then come back and make again statements like the ones in the comment you were quoting. Palestinians, international law, human rights, it's all diversion from the real agenda, which is the anger at the fact that Jews exist and in a state of their own.

It's noticeable that you have steered clear of positing an answer to my reasoning for holding this position , namely a disdain for the idea that the people from one nation think that they have the right to give the land of one people to another , and can only reply with poorly disguised slurs.

Maybe/probably you see no problem with such an idea, so the silence might signify support for it. Support I would suggest that would soon completely disappear if it were you and your people that were the recipient of such a grave injustice. But hey , who said you need to be morally consistent ?

As to your continued reliance on slur and innuendo here , I'll give it some time if only so as to expose it for the rubbish it is

If what you claim were true , there's a much much better option on the table for me to support instead of the two state solution , namely the one state solution.

The two state solution , which I have been a long time advocate of , actually supports the continuing existence of the state of Israel as the Jewish state, along with a state for the Palestinians.

The one state solution , however , recognizes only a binational state for both sides and thus denies a truly Jewish state. So that would be the logical choice for someone who is averse to the idea of a Jewish state.

Oddly enough the Israeli extremism that supports Israeli illegal expansion and changes the facts on the ground has , year on year , rendered the two state solution something of a dead letter and , imo , has left the one state solution as something akin to the only option being on the table for people to consider.

Maybe when you have more confidence in your moral positions you will be comfortable with debate that doesn't have to rely on slur and innuendo. I ain't holding my breath on it though

 

[oneworld2]

. You are quite awful at creating spins honestly.

That's because I haven't been trained in it like some

 

[X Factor]

https://www.npr.org/sections/parall...list-fatally-shot-while-covering-gaza-protest

Palestinian photojournalist Yaser Murtaja covered plenty of funeral processions during the 2014 war in Gaza.

Now his colleagues are covering his death.
======================================
A 30-year-old Palestinian photojournalist wearing PRESS ID was targeted by Israeli soldiers at the Gaza border & was shot to death. He was operating a drone camera at the time. The Israeli troops use live ammunition & are apparently trying to suppress photojournalist coverage of the border fence protests. IOW, they deliberately murdered him.

It's always possible that a bona fide journalist would put on that press vest and still do something meriting a shooting, but that's more of a stretch.

I can't go into details about my views on the situation because I'll get yelled at, but basically, Israel has an unfortunate habit of going over the top at times - even given all factors in the last 80ish years that are in play.

Was he armed? Was he a danger?

Is there any evidence he was a terrorist? Because the article says he was a journalist. Unless you have concrete proof that he was a member of Hamas in the process of directing an attack, you should stop smearing a dead man.

Uh..... no, I asked whether there was proof he was a combatant. I already knew how he died. It’s right there in the damn title.

And no, it doesn’t make any sort of sense that a journalist would be randomly shot dead. You wanting to brush this under the rug is quite telling, come to think of it.

Again, is there any proof this journalist was a Hamas commander?

Hmm.... maybe because those guys were actually terrorists and not some random journalist who is being accused of being a terrorist commander without what seems to be any sort of proof?

Tigerace117:

To date there is no evidence publicly shared by Israeli authorities to substantiate the claim that Murtaja was a military commander, or even a militant. Yaser Murtaja was a credited journalist with Ain Media, which receives money from USAID after the media outlet was vetted by the US Government. The claim that he was a Hamas or other militant organisation operative made by Avigdor Lieberman has not yet been substantiated by any evidence and may just be more spin and hasbara designed to lessen international condemnation of Israel for the killing of a journalist. Lieberman also claimed that there were no innocent Palestinians in Gaza so his credibility in labelling Murtaja as a militant will ring hollow until independently verified proof is brought forward.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Interesting how this preemptively discards any evidence Isreal might have.

Except when they're shelling children on a beach or shooting dead unarmed civilians who are cowering for their lives, or using children as human shields when entering houses etc, etc.

This isn't hard to understand but you appear to wish to make it look like it is for obvious reasons.

Note the word " IF " it's true , it's a key component

Nobody here , AFAICS , is " closed " to the idea that the man in question may have had connections with Hamas , including myself. They just have the sense/objectivity required to want to see supportive evidence to back up the claim.
Leiberman made the claim WITHOUT providing a scrap of evidence for it. He decided to slur the man in a bid to legitimise his murder without having the evidence readily available to support it. If he didn't know for sure then he shouldn't have made the claim. If he did know for sure he would have had the evidence available to back it.

If you don't like this situation you should question your own conduct instead of attacking people just for their being reasonable :shrug:

Every person who calls this murder is claiming Israel is lying. All these posts here make the assumption that Israel is lying to provide cover for the killing. It is you all who seem uncomfortable in your position. When the thread started, there were bold, grand statements about how Isreal is not credible and not to be believed and it was murder, MURDER! Yes, some are weakly backtracking now, saying how you only want to know what Isreal intel knows (because that’s reasonable, lol). Funny how none of you are confident enough to say there isn’t any evidence because it isn’t true. This tells me that you know, or at least suspect, that Israel is not wrong but it’s doesn’t make a difference to you.

Incidentally I had to trim and delete some the posts due to the 5000 character limit.

 

[Tigerace117]

This article approve my point which is Hamas is using the tag "journalist" for his terror activities.


Eight out of seventeen of the journalists were terrorists. Two out the seven left didn't killed by the IDF (and probably more than two), so I guess the majority that have been killed were terrorists. Israel target terrorists not journalists, to suggest that is shameful.

Actually, your own article also admits that even out of the handful of journalists who were Hamas(assuming your source is credible, anyway) several were not any sort of “combatants”. So frankly, the longer one looks at your article the weaker your case gets.

And yes, it is shameful that Israel is smearing the name of a dead man because they can’t admit they made a mistake.

 

[Mr Person]

They'd be wise to put cams on the snipers so they can say "here's the shot, here's what was going on right then."

I was dubious about the guy supposedly shot in the leg because you couldn't actually see or hear any evidence that he was shot (he didn't even yell out on "impact"). This looks worse.

It's always possible that a bona fide journalist would put on that press vest and still do something meriting a shooting, but that's more of a stretch.

I can't go into details about my views on the situation because I'll get yelled at, but basically, Israel has an unfortunate habit of going over the top at times - even given all factors in the last 80ish years that are in play.

Interesting how this preemptively discards any evidence Isreal might have.

Interesting how you reached the conclusion what I was pre-emptively discarding anything. Are you sure you truly reached that conclusion?

 

[Tigerace117]

Interesting how this preemptively discards any evidence Isreal might have.





Every person who calls this murder is claiming Israel is lying. All these posts here make the assumption that Israel is lying to provide cover for the killing. It is you all who seem uncomfortable in your position. When the thread started, there were bold, grand statements about how Isreal is not credible and not to be believed and it was murder, MURDER! Yes, some are weakly backtracking now, saying how you only want to know what Isreal intel knows (because that’s reasonable, lol). Funny how none of you are confident enough to say there isn’t any evidence because it isn’t true. This tells me that you know, or at least suspect, that Israel is not wrong but it’s doesn’t make a difference to you.

Incidentally I had to trim and delete some the posts due to the 5000 character limit.

I’m not “uncomfortable” in the slightest. You still haven’t provided any evidence that this journalist was a member of Hamas. All you did was complain about the very fact that people wanted evidence instead of just taking Israel’s word for it.

 

[X Factor]

Interesting how you reached the conclusion what I was pre-emptively discarding anything. Are you sure you truly reached that conclusion?

I definitely did not reach that conclusion about you. I was referring to the post that’s just above my comment.

 

[Mr Person]

I definitely did not reach that conclusion about you. I was referring to the post that’s just above my comment.

The string quote was rather confusing...

 

[Apocalypse]

It's noticeable that you have steered clear of positing an answer to my reasoning for holding this position , namely a disdain for the idea that the people from one nation think that they have the right to give the land of one people to another , and can only reply with poorly disguised slurs.

Maybe/probably you see no problem with such an idea, so the silence might signify support for it. Support I would suggest that would soon completely disappear if it were you and your people that were the recipient of such a grave injustice. But hey , who said you need to be morally consistent ?

As to your continued reliance on slur and innuendo here , I'll give it some time if only so as to expose it for the rubbish it is

If what you claim were true , there's a much much better option on the table for me to support instead of the two state solution , namely the one state solution.

The two state solution , which I have been a long time advocate of , actually supports the continuing existence of the state of Israel as the Jewish state, along with a state for the Palestinians.

The one state solution , however , recognizes only a binational state for both sides and thus denies a truly Jewish state. So that would be the logical choice for someone who is averse to the idea of a Jewish state.

Oddly enough the Israeli extremism that supports Israeli illegal expansion and changes the facts on the ground has , year on year , rendered the two state solution something of a dead letter and , imo , has left the one state solution as something akin to the only option being on the table for people to consider.

Maybe when you have more confidence in your moral positions you will be comfortable with debate that doesn't have to rely on slur and innuendo. I ain't holding my breath on it though

Do not confuse slurs and ad hominem with the ability to call things what they are. Your "I believe in the two states solution" nonsense is irrelevant when you are caught claiming time after time that Israel doesn't have the basic right to exist. If you weren't constantly attacking Israel's right to even exist, the right of the Jewish people to a state of their own being practiced, you'd have a point. Yet you do not and that is the truth, it's diversion and your motivation is in its pure form indeed the anger at the fact that Jewish people exist in a state of their own and have existed for 70 years now. You don't attack any other country's right to exist I suppose.

As to the context of your diversions, you say that it's because some land was taken from one people and given to another, that is factually not true, the land called Palestine by those taking it from Jews wasn't belonging to the people you claim it belonged to and that is under every moral, legal or other justification. You wish it to be so, so to provide yet more justification for your opposition to Israel's existence, and as such you repeat those Pallywood lies. But as I told you once, twice and probably hundreds of times by now history cannot be manipulated and changed by such lies. Coming to peace with Israel's existence now that it is marking 70 years of existence is not only the solution to the Palestinians' problems, it would benefit you as well.

 

[Apocalypse]

That's because I haven't been trained in it like some

At least you try. I never understood the need for that though, but then again I have that insane and uncommon ability to stick to reality.

 

[NO1]

Actually, your own article also admits that even out of the handful of journalists who were Hamas(assuming your source is credible, anyway) several were not any sort of “combatants”. So frankly, the longer one looks at your article the weaker your case gets.

And yes, it is shameful that Israel is smearing the name of a dead man because they can’t admit they made a mistake.

So from the "majority of the journalists " we go down to "several", I guess your case is getting weaker.:lol:

And for the mistakes, I don't think there is an army which make no mistakes, and when IDF fighting against terror organization like Hamas which using medics, journalists and childrens as shields, sadly the probability of innocents getting hurt will raise.
https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/984782901828087808

Just from today "protest", terrorist throw explosive device near the fence, when there are journalists next to him. Apparently this device explode and injured couple of Palestinians.
Very shamful tactics.

 

[Evilroddy]

An opinion article, and? Needless to say that the article writer himself does not share your belief of evil Israel needing Hamas to continue to murder innocents. Such conspiracy theories and dehumanizations are entirely your own.

Apocalypse:

Please cite by quotation where I accused Israel of being "evil" or stop projecting your own opinions by repeatedly misconstruing what I have posted here. Israel is not evil but its security apparatus, its military and parts of its government are issuing orders and taking actions which are far outside the ethical and legal norms expected from democratic and responsible state by the international community. Certain parts of the Israeli state are acting in a way that is ethically compromised and may also be illegal by international legal standards. Realpolitik and the existence of real or imagined military threats do not relieve a modern democratic and responsible state from acting ethically towards peoples and territories which is occupying or controlling. Israel has a responsibility to those people whom it has occupied, effectively imprisoned and displaced. The Israeli state cannot just kill them at its pleasure because they are protesting the conditions under which they must live due to the historical and present actions taken by Israel. A significant part of the Palestinians' misery is the result of their own actions or inactions since what they call the Nakba but the prime-mover in the Palestinians' case is still Israel's actions between 1947 and the present day in seizing their private and collective lands and denying them basic freedoms. There is a phrase for such a state policy but it is against the I/P forum rules for me to include it in discussion here, so I will stop short of calling it what I think it is.

NO1's earlier post said my analysis was "baseless" and I unfortunately got his comment mixed up with yours and replied to you instead of him. My apologies for the mix-up. That's why I cited the article, to refute the claim of baselessness made by NO 1 above.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

Interesting how this preemptively discards any evidence Isreal might have., ....(edited for brevity) ...
Incidentally I had to trim and delete some the posts due to the 5000 character limit.

X-Factor:

The burden of proof rests with the accuser. Israel through its defense minister made the allegation so the burden of proving the allegation rests with the Israeli state and not with any other person or entity.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.