Overly progressive policing and prosecution simply doesn't work

[Bok Tuklo]

I remember visiting Amsterdam with relatives who live in Holland. We drove into the city because we were going to catch a train to Prague but wanted to hang around first. All our luggage was in the car. My Dutch relative who drove brought a blanket to put over the luggage just to be safe. He said people will break the windows if they see anything they can steal.

Other than that, Amsterdam was ****ing awesome!

On a side note, Mexican food in The Netherlands sucks.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Kansas City is in a red state, Portland in a blue state. Do try to keep up.

Portland was not mentioned in the OP.

Both sides are not the same, despite how badly you obviously want them to be.

Partisan bias noted.

 

[Phys251]

Portland was not mentioned in the OP.

I meant Seattle. My larger point stands.

Partisan bias noted.

Bothsiderism noted.

 

[mrjurrs]

Who controls the “established order” in those big blue cities? I agree that “economic issues” are contributing factors, yet why can’t they be addressed at the city government leve

The established order referring to police departments, prosecutors department and the prison system. You don't think increased crime is limited to 'big blue cities' do you?

 

[ttwtt78640]

I meant Seattle. My larger point stands.

Is your “larger point” that it doesn’t matter whether the big blue city is in a red state or a blue state?

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

My wife and I live in the Kansas City area, but right now we are up in Seattle for a short getaway. Seattle is a beautiful city in a beautiful setting, but one thing we have noticed while we are here that:

1. The city smells like shit, literally because the homeless defecate anywhere and everywhere.

2. There are areas of town where all the windows are boarded up at street level because they cannot keep people from busting the windows out. These are open businesses with boarded up windows.

3. Every store, literally every store, no matter how big or small, has a security guard. We asked some store owners why this is the case, and were told that because the local prosecutors will not prosecute shoplifting or vandalism, they have to pay security to keep people from just openly stealing from them or vandalizing their business.

This is in a city that is not a dangerous city. Seattle has a fraction of the homicide rate of our hometown, Kansas City. Yet, despite that, overly "woke", progressive ideas about law enforcement and prosecutions in Seattle have created what you could fairly describe as an almost dystopian society.

The elections this fall will likely be the biggest loss for Democrats at all levels of government in anyone's lifetime. You look at all the polling, the candidate recruitment and so on, and it will likely be a bloodbath for Democrats, and it's the far left and this overly woke stuff that will be to blame for it.

**** this country is all I have to say. Republican do absolutely nothing for the people, nothing at all but finger point and blame and whip up their shitty base with lies, fear and hatred. Blame democrats is complete garbage and we deserve this shit country ours has become. Keep putting in republicans who give billionaires tax breaks and do nothing else.

No dealing with the greed in the housing market where investors jack up pricing for profit and people can't even afford a home to live in and get robbed by rent

No dealing with poverty, low wages,

NO dealing with addiction, rehabiliation

No dealing with our shitty healthcare system, including our lack of mental health resources.

No dealing with corporate greed raping this country with insane profits while their workers struggle, and everybody else struggles with every increasing cost of everything while they take all the wealth

All many moronic assholes want to do is lock people in jail and then whine when it does nothing to address crime. In fact, it makes it worse, as everybody who gets out can't get a job, liver certain places, etc. And crimes is all they have

highest prison rate in the "land of the free" on par with some real shitholes and for decades the same moronic shit (democrats have done this as well, Clinton was big on this, probably to pander to republcians votes), "tough on crime", and you hear all the right wing morons talk about how "soft on crime justices" or whine about bail. Complete moronic shitheads. YOu want to finger point, shove that finger up your ass because it is that type of idiocy that does nothing but continue the endless cycle of crime and violence and solve nothing

 

[Phys251]

Is your “larger point” that it doesn’t matter whether the big blue city is in a red state or a blue state?

The OP goes on a rant about the dirtiness of part of Seattle while flippantly mentioning how much safer it is than KC.

How blue and red states manage their own problems is quite different. That I can agree with the OP on.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

Deflection noted and dismissed.

That's all you do, so keep projecting. Holy hell, you people really have no lives. YOu can't even type complete sentenced, let alone string a couple together to make an actual argument. Because like every right winger you have nothing

 

[PoS]

I don't recall it smelling any more or less like shit than any other city, American or otherwise. I suppose the visit was several years ago now, but...

Of course you dont since you want all criminals freed from prison.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

It shouldn't be our burden to sift through and find the rare thing on which righties are actually right.

I think it’s more about recognizing failed ideas when we see them.

**** this country is all I have to say. Republican do absolutely nothing for the people, nothing at all but finger point and blame and whip up their shitty base with lies, fear and hatred. Blame democrats is complete garbage and we deserve this shit country ours has become. Keep putting in republicans who give billionaires tax breaks and do nothing else.

No dealing with the greed in the housing market where investors jack up pricing for profit and people can't even afford a home to live in and get robbed by rent

No dealing with poverty, low wages,

NO dealing with addiction, rehabiliation

No dealing with our shitty healthcare system, including our lack of mental health resources.

No dealing with corporate greed raping this country with insane profits while their workers struggle, and everybody else struggles with every increasing cost of everything while they take all the wealth

All many moronic assholes want to do is lock people in jail and then whine when it does nothing to address crime. In fact, it makes it worse, as everybody who gets out can't get a job, liver certain places, etc. And crimes is all they have

highest prison rate in the "land of the free" on par with some real shitholes and for decades the same moronic shit (democrats have done this as well, Clinton was big on this, probably to pander to republcians votes), "tough on crime", and you hear all the right wing morons talk about how "soft on crime justices" or whine about bail. Complete moronic shitheads. YOu want to finger point, shove that finger up your ass because it is that type of idiocy that does nothing but continue the endless cycle of crime and violence and solve nothing

This has nothing to do with any of that. Seattle has one of the lowest poverty rates of any major city on earth. It has one of the highest median incomes of any city on earth.

Yet, in one of wealthiest cities on earth, business owners must all rely on private security because they cannot depend on their city to maintain basic law and order. Open businesses have boarded up their windows because they cannot depend on their city to maintain basic law and order.

A high murder rate is a hard thing to fix because of all the factors involved, low clearance rates, retaliatory violence and so on. However, people feeling free to walk in a store and take merchandise in front of god and everyone is not a hard thing for a local government to solve. People destroying property in front of god and everyone is not a hard thing for a local government to solve. Because the only reason people are doing it is they know they can get away with it, that there is little to no legal consequences for them.

For the last 2 years I have been hearing right wingers go on and on about cities like Seattle, Portland and San Francisco and I thought they were full of shit like they usually are. Come to one of the cities, walk around, and you will see that they actually have a point on this one. Businesses boarded up because they cannot depend on basic law and order because the local government and district attorney is engaging in some kind of woke social experiment.... That is pretty ****ed up. Moreover, it makes all of us Democrats look bad because we all get tarred with this craziness. We will almost certainly see the biggest Republican wave in anyone's lifetime this year, and its because of shit like this. So when we are living with 10 years or more of dominance by right wing assholes like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, this is what we can blame for it.

 

[Antiwar]

Yet another commenter/thread that incorrectly supposed that anywhere in this neoliberal country has implemented progressive socioeconomic principles, and is clinging to the word 'woke.'

 

[Luce]

My wife and I live in the Kansas City area, but right now we are up in Seattle for a short getaway. Seattle is a beautiful city in a beautiful setting, but one thing we have noticed while we are here that:

1. The city smells like shit, literally because the homeless defecate anywhere and everywhere.

What would you have us do about the homeless?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

What would you have us do about the homeless?

The city has to be swimming in money given the tax base, yet there are obviously a huge shortage of public restrooms. Why not put in more public restrooms so they have a place to use the bathroom? Given the lack of public restrooms, there has to be a huge problem with hepatitis with the Seattle area homeless.

 

[Bodi]

My wife and I live in the Kansas City area,

Sorry...

but right now we are up in Seattle for a short getaway.

Don't advertise your location to the cops...

Seattle is a beautiful city in a beautiful setting, but one thing we have noticed while we are here that:

1. The city smells like shit, literally because the homeless defecate anywhere and everywhere.

It is their right to defaecate

2. There are areas of town where all the windows are boarded up at street level because they cannot keep people from busting the windows out. These are open businesses with boarded up windows.

3. Every store, literally every store, no matter how big or small, has a security guard. We asked some store owners why this is the case, and were told that because the local prosecutors will not prosecute shoplifting or vandalism, they have to pay security to keep people from just openly stealing from them or vandalizing their business.

This would not happen in Texas. Guns out. Nobody ****s around.

This is in a city that is not a dangerous city. Seattle has a fraction of the homicide rate of our hometown, Kansas City. Yet, despite that, overly "woke", progressive ideas about law enforcement and prosecutions in Seattle have created what you could fairly describe as an almost dystopian society.

The elections this fall will likely be the biggest loss for Democrats at all levels of government in anyone's lifetime. You look at all the polling, the candidate recruitment and so on, and it will likely be a bloodbath for Democrats, and it's the far left and this overly woke stuff that will be to blame for it.

More guns.

 

[Bodi]

What would you have us do about the homeless?

Bus them down to Texas and force the to cross the river....

 

[Bodi]

Oh, I get it. I'm supposed to answer your questions, but you're not supposed to answer mine.



Ah yes, the "Demorat" slur. So original.

I am dealing with a couple like that now... LOL

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Sorry...

Don't advertise your location to the cops...

It is their right to defaecate

This would not happen in Texas. Guns out. Nobody ****s around.

More guns.

And another quality contribution.

 

[multivita-man]

I agree that 'de-funding' the police is a bad slogan, bad political optics, but we can't just let the police go around cracking heads either. The last 2 years have been a period of enormous social and political disruption. I think cities are still trying to adjust to it, and it might take time.

 

[Bodi]

And another quality contribution.

...and one of your own.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I agree that 'de-funding' the police is a bad slogan, bad political optics, but we can't just let the police go around cracking heads either. The last 2 years have been a period of enormous social and political disruption. I think cities are still trying to adjust to it, and it might take time.

The is a long way from letting police go around cracking heads, and creating a situation where open businesses board up due to lack of police protection from vandalism and even mom and pop stores have to hire security because the local prosecutor will not prosecute someone that steals right in front of you.

We are going to get destroyed as a party if don't stop letting the crazy 5% of the party on the far left set the agenda.

 

[multivita-man]

The is a long way from letting police go around cracking heads, and creating a situation where open businesses board up due to lack of police protection from vandalism and even mom and pop stores have to hire security because the local prosecutor will not prosecute someone that steals right in front of you.

We are going to get destroyed as a party if don't stop letting the crazy 5% of the party on the far left set the agenda.

If you look at some of the elections in progressive cities, there's pretty solid evidence that even the left is starting to push back on some of the more 'out there' ideas. But some of the left's struggles are the result of savvy right wing, pro-corporate propaganda. The left was never really advocating for doing away with police departments and replacing it with an anarchical utopia.

When we have moments of trauma - and I hate to use the overly-used word "disruption," but that too - it sometimes inspires a process in which ideas get kicked around. Some might seem radical but they're not insane as everyone believes. For instance, there's definitely something radical about dissolving police departments, and if that's all you do and leave the community unpoliced, then that's also insane. But in reality, what I remember was that there were calls to do what some police departments have done (for a variety of reasons), which is to dissolve the current system of policing and replace it with a new organization that improves oversight and accountability, and in a lot of cases, changes how the departments are funded. That's radical, but definitely not insane, and it might actually be an improvement over what exists.

We cannot just simply look at results; we have to look at the results and also the process by which we make changes to policies. If we improve policy process - make it more inclusive, more transparent, more a lot of other things - then we will usually, though not always, get better outcomes.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

If you look at some of the elections in progressive cities, there's pretty solid evidence that even the left is starting to push back on some of the more 'out there' ideas. But some of the left's struggles are the result of savvy right wing, pro-corporate propaganda. The left was never really advocating for doing away with police departments and replacing it with an anarchical utopia.

When we have moments of trauma - and I hate to use the overly-used word "disruption," but that too - it sometimes inspires a process in which ideas get kicked around. Some might seem radical but they're not insane as everyone believes. For instance, there's definitely something radical about dissolving police departments, and if that's all you do and leave the community unpoliced, then that's also insane. But in reality, what I remember was that there were calls to do what some police departments have done (for a variety of reasons), which is to dissolve the current system of policing and replace it with a new organization that improves oversight and accountability, and in a lot of cases, changes how the departments are funded. That's radical, but definitely not insane, and it might actually be an improvement over what exists.

We cannot just simply look at results; we have to look at the results and also the process by which we make changes to policies. If we improve policy process - make it more inclusive, more transparent, more a lot of other things - then we will usually, though not always, get better outcomes.

There generally is not pushback until it gets so bad that average people are like "wtf?"

For example, when one of these measures went before the voters in Minneapolis, a city with a very progressive electorate, it failed: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...oposal-dismantle-department-fails/8564868002/

Why, because there few things more popular with virtually every demographic than law and order. Moreover, it's not white people in the suburbs that need law and order the most, it's minorities in inner cities. I think everyone recognizes (well everyone but the hardcore right wingers) that we are asking too much from police in that we are asking them to be both law enforcement and mental health professionals, but I think it is pretty clear that the electorate wants us to reform the system we have, not replace it.

There are just bad ideas coming out of the activists on the left in just about every city and just about everyone sees it. For example, last year here in Kansas City there was a homeless encampment in front of city hall. Normally, the city would not have allowed it to last even a few hours. However, the "woke" left protested and the city allowed the encampment to be there for months. So for months anyone having to do any business in city hall, which by the way would be disproportionately members of under represented communities in the inner city, had to wade through a homeless encampment and human feces. The agreement the city eventually reached with the "woke" left, was to pay to house the homeless from the encampment in apartments and motels, where within two weeks the homeless from the encampment utterly trashed those places, and the city (and thus local taxpayers) was on the hook for the repairs to those apartments and motels. Of course, it never occurs to these far left activists that those people were unhouseable for the same reasons they were unemployable and simply paying to house someone doesn't mean they are housable. Unfortunately, a lot of people that are homeless today are people that would have been institutionalized 50 years ago. It's sad but it's true. That is why there is no panacea for dealing with the homeless. It is a case by case basis for social workers.

This kind of crap is going on in major cities across the country and it makes us Democrats look like we are incompetent and engaging in ridiculous social experiments at the expense of the local citizenry.

 

[multivita-man]

There generally is not pushback until it gets so bad that average people are like "wtf?"

For example, when one of these measures went before the voters in Minneapolis, a city with a very progressive electorate, it failed: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...oposal-dismantle-department-fails/8564868002/

Why, because there few things more popular with virtually every demographic than law and order. Moreover, it's not white people in the suburbs that need law and order the most, it's minorities in inner cities. I think everyone recognizes (well everyone but the hardcore right wingers) that we are asking too much from police in that we are asking them to be both law enforcement and mental health professionals, but I think it is pretty clear that the electorate wants us to reform the system we have, not replace it.

There are just bad ideas coming out of the activists on the left in just about every city and just about everyone sees it. For example, last year here in Kansas City there was a homeless encampment in front of city hall. Normally, the city would not have allowed it to last even a few hours. However, the "woke" left protested and the city allowed the encampment to be there for months. So for months anyone having to do any business in city hall, which by the way would be disproportionately members of under represented communities in the inner city, had to wade through a homeless encampment and human feces. The agreement the city eventually reached with the "woke" left, was to pay to house the homeless from the encampment in apartments and motels, where within two weeks the homeless from the encampment utterly trashed those places, and the city (and thus local taxpayers) was on the hook for the repairs to those apartments and motels. Of course, it never occurs to these far left activists that those people were unhouseable for the same reasons they were unemployable and simply paying to house someone doesn't mean they are housable. Unfortunately, a lot of people that are homeless today are people that would have been institutionalized 50 years ago. It's sad but it's true. That is why there is no panacea for dealing with the homeless. It is a case by case basis for social workers.

This kind of crap is going on in major cities across the country and it makes us Democrats look like we are incompetent and engaging in ridiculous social experiments at the expense of the local citizenry.

Good post, but please keep in mind that one of the reasons that activists are advocating reform to the extreme is that previous calls for reform have either been ignored or that previous "reforms" were insufficient to really change anything. There has to be accountability. Without any kind of accountability, all the reform ideas in the world is just talk.

 

[bomberfox]

My wife and I live in the Kansas City area, but right now we are up in Seattle for a short getaway. Seattle is a beautiful city in a beautiful setting, but one thing we have noticed while we are here that:

1. The city smells like shit, literally because the homeless defecate anywhere and everywhere.

2. There are areas of town where all the windows are boarded up at street level because they cannot keep people from busting the windows out. These are open businesses with boarded up windows.

3. Every store, literally every store, no matter how big or small, has a security guard. We asked some store owners why this is the case, and were told that because the local prosecutors will not prosecute shoplifting or vandalism, they have to pay security to keep people from just openly stealing from them or vandalizing their business.

This is in a city that is not a dangerous city. Seattle has a fraction of the homicide rate of our hometown, Kansas City. Yet, despite that, overly "woke", progressive ideas about law enforcement and prosecutions in Seattle have created what you could fairly describe as an almost dystopian society.

The elections this fall will likely be the biggest loss for Democrats at all levels of government in anyone's lifetime. You look at all the polling, the candidate recruitment and so on, and it will likely be a bloodbath for Democrats, and it's the far left and this overly woke stuff that will be to blame for it.

Which is why you havnt posted any polling?
The tough on crime mantra lead us to being the highest incarcerated nation in the developed world surpassing even countries we call dictatorial.

 

[bomberfox]

Hey if ya want to blame us for hillary’s loss dont complain when we stick our necks out for your party. Tormenting the homeless and harassing them doesnt work either so you have nothing either.