Our PhD Surplus

[Helix]

Did you play football? Lifting weights (picking up large pieces of metal) has direct application to being able to move large human beings. That said, its a good analogy because the person who was the strongest in the weight room wasn't always the same person who performed the best in the weight room. And not to mention, there were plenty of exercises that were quite useless to football and different exercises had different levels of applicability to the football field.

Same thing in the academia, some PhDs have very little application to the real world while others might have varying levels of application. Also just the level of degree does not automatically make someone better or worse for a job. If I were a company, (any kind really) I'd take someone with a BA in finance over someone with a PhD in sociology (unless it was criminology, they definitely get the nod here) any day of the week.

i did play football, and i played multiple positions, both offensive and defensive. i found regular exercise of all muscle groups to be advantageous.

 

[ReformCollege]

i did play football, and i played multiple positions, both offensive and defensive. i found regular exercise of all muscle groups to be advantageous.

I was a defensive end/tackle.

I worked everything in order to prevent imbalances which might lead to injury, but I can tell you I cared a lot more about how much I could squat then how much I could reverse curl. If you were any good, I'm sure you did too.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Or that some people are sensitive.

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place is because the nobody takes the time to organize their thoughts. That's what philosophy is about. If a person thinks philosophy is about rambling about dreams then that person hasn't got the faintest idea what philosophy is.

For instance, this is why people think social sciences are science, even some scientists, because they don't understand philosophy of science. I'm the first to say that a degree in liberal arts is useless, but philosophy is critical to all aspects of life. Without philosophy people just stumble through life in a fog. And when I hear people act like that's a good thing, it makes me sad for our entire society.

 

[shlunka]

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place is because the nobody takes the time to organize their thoughts. That's what philosophy is about. If a person thinks philosophy is about rambling about dreams then that person hasn't got the faintest idea what philosophy is.

For instance, this is why people think social sciences are science, even some scientists, because they don't understand philosophy of science. I'm the first to say that a degree in liberal arts is useless, but philosophy is critical to all aspects of life. Without philosophy people just stumble through life in a fog. And when I hear people act like that's a good thing, it makes me sad for our entire society.

You're saying that philosophy is a science but social sciences aren't? What about criminology?

 

[winston53660]

Too many grads with too much education for the current job market,.....what to do, what to do?
I know, let's hire more math and science teachers so more of our students can be over educated for the jobs that currently exist.

Technological progress is happening at a rate that is far quicker than we mere mortals can keep up with.
Where is this going? wish I knew.....

We are competing in a global market as far as professionally educated are concerned. Say an engineer in a third world country can do a gig for half the price equal in quality compared to a first world country professional, which is an employer going to pick? And this can all be done over the internet on a contract basis.

 

[Guy Incognito]

You're saying that philosophy is a science but social sciences aren't? What about criminology?

Part of studying philosophy is studying logic. Logically, if all social sciences are pseudoscience, and criminology is a social science, then yes, criminology is a pseudoscience.

 

[shlunka]

Part of studying philosophy is studying logic. Logically, if all social sciences are pseudoscience, and criminology is a social science, then yes, criminology is a pseudoscience.

I feel compelled to offer a correction to your sentence. Illogically* Don't get me wrong, I do see some applications for philosophy, but in my opinion it's definitely not worth investing a PhD amount of time into.

 

[shlunka]

We are competing in a global market as far as professionally educated are concerned. Say an engineer in a third world country can do a gig for half the price equal in quality compared to a first world country professional, which is an employer going to pick? And this can all be done over the internet on a contract basis.

Is that profile pic in support of equal marriage rights, or because you like math symbols? :2razz:

 

[Guy Incognito]

I feel compelled to offer a correction to your sentence. Illogically*

Your compulsion to correct my sentence is ill advised, since you have called a basic syllogism "illogical." It just shows that you don't know what the word "illogical" means, and could do with a bit of education in philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, I do see some applications for philosophy, but in my opinion it's definitely not worth investing a PhD amount of time into.

Well, sure, there is no such thing a useful advanced degree in the liberal arts. They are called the liberal arts precisely because they are useless. But my point is there is more to philosophy is foundational, and it has practically nothing to do with dreams as you stated earlier.

 

[Risky Thicket]

A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.

Useless? Why?

But generally, because higher education has become a pre-requisite to so many jobs, ofc the academia became, for the most part, highschool 2.0. Where you go in, sit down (at irregular hours), learn some stuff... if you're lucky, do some stuff (like a few projects and lab work) and then write some stuff on the exam paper. And bam, you're done. Yeeey. And then you go, get a job, spend a few years learning things that are actually useful and live your life.

You may do well in engineering. A large portion of the rest of your life may be unfulfilling.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Useless? Why?

Because you can't use them to make money.

 

[Mathematician]

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place is because the nobody takes the time to organize their thoughts. That's what philosophy is about. If a person thinks philosophy is about rambling about dreams then that person hasn't got the faintest idea what philosophy is.

For instance, this is why people think social sciences are science, even some scientists, because they don't understand philosophy of science. I'm the first to say that a degree in liberal arts is useless, but philosophy is critical to all aspects of life. Without philosophy people just stumble through life in a fog. And when I hear people act like that's a good thing, it makes me sad for our entire society.

Every good mathematician is at least half a philosopher, and every good philosopher is at least half a mathematician.
--Gottlob Frege

Since most suck at math, I'm not surprised about the lack of philosophy.

 

[VanceMack]

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place is because the nobody takes the time to organize their thoughts. That's what philosophy is about. If a person thinks philosophy is about rambling about dreams then that person hasn't got the faintest idea what philosophy is.

For instance, this is why people think social sciences are science, even some scientists, because they don't understand philosophy of science. I'm the first to say that a degree in liberal arts is useless, but philosophy is critical to all aspects of life. Without philosophy people just stumble through life in a fog. And when I hear people act like that's a good thing, it makes me sad for our entire society.

And WITH a PhD in philosophy you are highly qualified to teach a philosophy course or mow my lawn.

 

[VanceMack]

A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.

A phd in engineering will never go out of style. I don't have any ambitions of getting a phd in engineering, will be happy to get my bacherlors and then a masters in something else to begin with... but yeah.

But generally, because higher education has become a pre-requisite to so many jobs, ofc the academia became, for the most part, highschool 2.0. Where you go in, sit down (at irregular hours), learn some stuff... if you're lucky, do some stuff (like a few projects and lab work) and then write some stuff on the exam paper. And bam, you're done. Yeeey. And then you go, get a job, spend a few years learning things that are actually useful and live your life.

Education isn't 'useless'...but it may not necessarily be 'marketable'.

 

[Guy Incognito]

And WITH a PhD in philosophy you are highly qualified to teach a philosophy course or mow my lawn.

The stuff somebody learns in a philosophy PhD program should be taught in high school. That is the problem. Philosophy is foundational.

If you don't understand how to think, you aren't equipped to go about getting a useful STEM education.

 

[VanceMack]

The stuff somebody learns in a philosophy PhD program should be taught in high school. That is the problem. Philosophy is foundational.

Im hip. I have zero problem with philosophy as an educational platform. Philosophy as a career? That's another matter.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Im hip. I have zero problem with philosophy as an educational platform. Philosophy as a career? That's another matter.

Philosophy is not a career, that's my point. It's just the start. Making a career out of philosophy is like making a career out of sesame street.

But philosophy is sorely neglected, and society is suffering the consequences of professionals who can't think.

 

[winston53660]

Philosophy is not a career, that's my point. It's just the start. Making a career out of philosophy is like making a career out of sesame street.

But philosophy is sorely neglected, and society is suffering the consequences of professionals who can't think.

Hmm a lot of people have made a carrer of Sesame Street. Puppeteers, gaffers, grips, directors, animators, caterers and then some.

 

[VanceMack]

Hmm a lot of people have made a carrer of Sesame Street. Puppeteers, gaffers, grips, directors, animators, caterers and then some.

Define "a lot". And those skills may very well have marketable attributes outside of "Sesame Street". While some people truly believe the government should just create jobs to give to people in their specialty, being an open mic regular at the coffee shop makes one an annoying asshole...not marketable. You can get whatever degree you want...doesn't mean someone is going to pay you to do a job.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Every good mathematician is at least half a philosopher, and every good philosopher is at least half a mathematician.
--Gottlob Frege

Since most suck at math, I'm not surprised about the lack of philosophy.

I read an interesting article recently that described the crisis in math education as a failure to emphasize puzzles. It described puzzles as mathematical literature. We teach the humanities from literature, so why not math?

I agree, philosophy and math are two sides of the same coin: logic. Frege is a giant in both fields.

 

[winston53660]

Define "a lot". And those skills may very well have marketable attributes outside of "Sesame Street". While some people truly believe the government should just create jobs to give to people in their specialty, being an open mic regular at the coffee shop makes one an annoying asshole...not marketable. You can get whatever degree you want...doesn't mean someone is going to pay you to do a job.

Oh dear god get off your soap box.

Define "a lot".

The real estate guy that owns the studio, the banker that that financed the studio, their administrative assistants, the janitor that cleans the toilets, the seasonal worker that sells Oscar the Grouch stuffed toys....

 

[VanceMack]

Oh dear god get off your soap box.



The real estate guy that owns the studio, the banker that that financed the studio, their administrative assistants, the janitor that cleans the toilets, the seasonal worker that sells Oscar the Grouch stuffed toys....

That's a 'soap box'? Well...in the spirit of your oh so intellectual and philosophical response, change your pad.

 

[Rainman05]

Education isn't 'useless'...but it may not necessarily be 'marketable'.

Perhaps you are right and indeed, that is the proper way of addressing the issue. The fact that it isn't marketable does however make it useless for real life... if you can't make a living off it, it's not worth your main focus and the lions' share of your time.

Useless? Why?

Because there is no way you can make a living off bible studies... philosophy or liberal arts and such non-sense. Or rather, the job market for such skills is so small that it doesn't justify it to be a main focus in life as a career.

You may do well in engineering. A large portion of the rest of your life may be unfulfilling.

Fulfillment and enjoyment in life comes from a wide array of sources.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

It is definitely a problem that our economy is so focused on using people for repetitive, mindless work to feed a money making machine instead of fostering creative endeavor to improve our country. It's getting to the point where the population is simply too smart and too knowledgeable to allow oligarchical, profiteering capitalism much longer. If our economics can't keep up with our knowledge, it's the economics that need to change, not the knowledge.

Honestly, I really don't think that's the issue.

College used to be the place where people who were smart and purely interested in knowledge went. It was almost kind of a "joy" thing, rather than an "employment" thing (although it could help, if you were into a more esoteric career).

These days? Totally different story.

A 4-year college is where EVERY kid is supposed to go, even if they could barely pass high school math. Even if the college doesn't teach what they want to learn. Even if they just flat-out aren't very smart. EVERY kid must got to a 4-year.

Trade school is frowned on. People in complex and challenging fields that trade schools offer are degraded, and kids are told that those kinds of jobs are only for "low life" people.

College doesn't want to look elitist, so they want the dumb kids too. The standards have been lowered accordingly.

Frankly, I think the issue is that children are being forced into one mold that may or may not suit them, and employers are overwhelmed with the knowledge that, these days, a degree doesn't mean ****. Whether or not this person with a degree is actually any good is a total crap shoot.

So why even bother with the kids fresh out of college? The degree doesn't mean anything. They'll just hire someone with demonstrated experience instead.

 

[Cyrylek]

If Obama didn't support TARP and the auto industry bailout and other actions (imperfect as they may be), the global economy would be in a tailspin with 25% unemployment in the US..

Let me guess...you have a Ph.D. in soothsaying?

And if anything, "too many PhD's" is a market problem, not a government problem. The government has not mandated the graduation of 60,000 PhD candidates; that's a result of people deciding on their own accord to get a graduate degree, and the US market determining it doesn't need those skills right now.

Sure it is "a government problem". You are forgetting about the federal student loans. Sallie Mae plays a role very similar to her cousins Freddie and Fannie: tuitions are getting steadily inflated, while the borrowers are increasingly at the risk of finding themselves "underwater": with costs of education being higher than their earning potentials.