Orlando Terror Attack Live Updates: [READ THE OP BEFORE POSTING]

[apdst]

Possibly, though taking a year to do that plus contacting individuals through some chat app would point to something other than recon.

You could be right, but there's no debate about ol' boy commanding the kill zone and producing a 50% casualty ratio.

 

[Moot]

You could be right, but there's no debate about ol' boy commanding the kill zone and producing a 50% casualty ratio.

Yeah, but he could've learned that here. What kind of tactics does one need to pull a trigger and start shooting?

 

[apdst]

Yeah, but he could've learned that here. What kind of tactics does one need to pull a trigger and start shooting?

There's more to it than standing there and pulling the trigger. Besides, he didn't just stand there. He was mobile, inside the building.

 

[TurtleDude]

He scored a very high rate of casualties, for sure. Unfortunately, this shooter may have been an above average shooter and knew how to handle his weapon.

well he was a licensed security guard. but when you have (save one off duty cop) a complete disarmed crowed and there is only one way out-its easy to run up the casualties. I man I used to shoot with-he died as a CSM of the US Army was awarded I believe the silver star in Korea for single handedly taking out almost 30 heavily armed Chicom regulars who were trying to flank the machine gun positions he was protecting. He got behind a small hill in an area where the Chicom soldiers had to come through a funnel like area and he had two MI carbines and dozens of magazines. he head shot the first soldier through the funnel and then the next three and that caused an obstacle to the others that he picked off. soon there was a pile of bodies and they couldn't get close enough to throw a grenade nor could they shoot at him without exposing themselves . after he killed about 27 they gave up and his machine gunners cut down the rest of them. He said he missed maybe a few times-the range was 50 yards or so and he had to shoot a couple of them twice-but he said he only used up four of the 15 round magazines and the last of the four was mostly full when they broke contact

 

[Napoleon]

Possibly, though taking a year to do that plus contacting individuals through some chat app would point to something other than recon.

Let's call them what they are. Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd are gay hookup apps and the story out there is that he's been on those apps for several years and two of the people who at least spoke to him through the apps have allegedly turned their phones in to the FBI. It's one thing to frequent a bar far "recon" purposes...something else entirely when you're an active user on gay hookup apps for years. That's is, if it turns out to be true.

 

[upsideguy]

What we also know:

The attacks in Orlando, San Bernardino, Paris, and Belgium have all occurred in 7 months time.

The FBI says there are thousands of similar threats across the US, including some in all 50 states.


The FBI says Middle Easterers are trying to enter illegally through the Mexican borders.

Immigrants are pouring illegally into the US by thousands per week.

The Paris and Belgium attacks have some commonality. They were planned and orchestrated by multiple Isis trained persons that moved to France / Belgium for the purpose of carrying a terrorist attack.

The San Bernardino and Orlando attacks were completely different. They were not carried on by Isis trained personnel operating in concert to carry on a terrorist attack. Each of the US attacks were by Americans operating as lone wolves (yes, one involved a married couple, but for intents and purposes, they were lone wolves). The only commonality is some link to interpretations of Islam and the use of conventionally acquired guns to carry on the attacks. Other than that, they really should not be lumped together or a single discussion.

The US attacks had nothing to do with illegal immigration...

I actually find it hard to believe that Middle Easterners would try to enter the US via the Mexican border. It is far easier to enter via Canada or land at Atlanta. Moreover, its even easier for them to recruit Americans via the Internet (case in point).

I would say the last two assertions are NOT things "we know" they are things "you believe"...its always a good idea to be in touch with that distinction.

 

[Lutherf]

Let's call them what they are. Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd are gay hookup apps and the story out there is that he's been on those apps for several years and two of the people who at least spoke to him through the apps have allegedly turned their phones in to the FBI. It's one thing to frequent a bar far "recon" purposes...something else entirely when you're an active user on gay hookup apps for years.

Frankly, if this turns out to be the case, it's even more tragic. Unfortunately, it also fits the MO of most other rampage shooters who tend to suffer conditions where they just don't fit in then take out their frustration and despair on innocents.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yeah, but he could've learned that here. What kind of tactics does one need to pull a trigger and start shooting?

not much when you have untrained unarmed panicking victims with only one way out-right towards the shooter. Do you have any idea how loud an AR 15 is in a closed room?

 

[apdst]

well he was a licensed security guard. but when you have (save one off duty cop) a complete disarmed crowed and there is only one way out-its easy to run up the casualties. I man I used to shoot with-he died as a CSM of the US Army was awarded I believe the silver star in Korea for single handedly taking out almost 30 heavily armed Chicom regulars who were trying to flank the machine gun positions he was protecting. He got behind a small hill in an area where the Chicom soldiers had to come through a funnel like area and he had two MI carbines and dozens of magazines. he head shot the first soldier through the funnel and then the next three and that caused an obstacle to the others that he picked off. soon there was a pile of bodies and they couldn't get close enough to throw a grenade nor could they shoot at him without exposing themselves . after he killed about 27 they gave up and his machine gunners cut down the rest of them. He said he missed maybe a few times-the range was 50 yards or so and he had to shoot a couple of them twice-but he said he only used up four of the 15 round magazines and the last of the four was mostly full when they broke contact

I doubt he learned much in the way of CQB tactics in security guard school.

Statistically, he had more success than just about any other mass shooter in America. Except for maybe Dylan Roof.

 

[apdst]

Let's call them what they are. Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd are gay hookup apps and the story out there is that he's been on those apps for several years and two of the people who at least spoke to him through the apps have allegedly turned their phones in to the FBI. It's one thing to frequent a bar far "recon" purposes...something else entirely when you're an active user on gay hookup apps for years. That's is, if it turns out to be true.

There's some part of the Koran that says for jihadists to blend in with the infidels and become accepted, before killing them.

 

[TobyOne]

A gay muslim who registered democrat. Are you saying this is a left wing hate crime ?

There are new reports out that this guy had been a patron at the club for a year or so and had been in contact with others there through a certain chat application. It's starting to look like this was less an act of hatred against homosexuals and more an act of self hatred. If he was really dealing with sexual identity issues and chose to work things out this way it just adds a whole new level of tragedy to this already awful event.

Gunman Omar Mateen visited gay nightclub a dozen times before shooting, witness says - Orlando Sentinel

 

[Napoleon]

There's some part of the Koran that says for jihadists to blend in with the infidels and become accepted, before killing them.

If the information I shared is true then I think it more likely that he was gay and ironically became a victim of his own radicalization. A tortured mind who decided to take other gay men and women out with him. The choice of this venue and these victims seems personally motivated to me. It's a little unusual for terrorists affiliated with ISIS or Al Qaeda to be so specific. Normally it's all about the numbers, but not in this case.

 

[Kobie]

A gay muslim who registered democrat. Are you saying this is a left wing hate crime ?

Nice to see you're not politicizing it.

 

[Chillfolks]

We will never know why this person carried out this act. The best we can hope for is to cherry pick the points we agree with and declare them the reason, while dismissing any points we disagree with.

 

[Kobie]

From the link in the OP:

FBI director: Mateen claimed loyalty to Islamist groups that are opposed to each other

Orlando gunman Omar Mateen told a 911 dispatcher he was attacking an LGBT nightclub on behalf of the leader of the Islamic State, but he also expressed solidarity with the 2013 Boston Marathon bombers and an American suicide bomber in Syria who was not affiliated with Islamic State, FBI's Director James Comey said Monday.

Comey said Mateen's statements added "confusion" about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other.

While working as a courthouse guard in 2013, Mateen made "inflammatory and contradictory" statements to co-workers about having relatives in Al Qaeda, the radical Sunni terrorist group, Comey said. Mateen also claimed to be a member of Hezbollah, Lebanon's Shiite militia, and his remarks drew an 11-month FBI investigation, Comey said. Both groups oppose Islamic State.


He sounds like a wannabe. A very confused young man.

One of the issues with the situation we're in is that someone can just say "I support ISIS" and it becomes something it's not. There appears to be zero evidence that the shooter received any sort of support, material or otherwise, from the actual ISIS organization. As you said, he's a wannabe. Or perhaps he even claimed ISIS support to cover the true impetus for his crimes, which appears on its surface, at least, to be that he was a self-loathing gay man.

There's simply so much we don't know that the constant politicization of it on all fronts (not you, tres, speaking in general) is both premature and disgustingly opportunist.

 

[apdst]

If the information I shared is true then I think it more likely that he was gay and ironically became a victim of his own radicalization. A tortured mind who decided to take other gay men and women out with him. The choice of this venue and these victims seems personally motivated to me. It's a little unusual for terrorists affiliated with ISIS or Al Qaeda to be so specific.

They're expanding their tactics. This is the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. Not only was it an attack on American soil, but the target was a gay bar.

It's a big mistake to play this off as a case of some mixed up kid.

 

[Moot]

not much when you have untrained unarmed panicking victims with only one way out-right towards the shooter. Do you have any idea how loud an AR 15 is in a closed room?

With the loud music, people said it sounded like "pops." But there's a snap chat video made by one of the victims and you can hear the pops in the background as the shooting started.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

They're expanding their tactics. This is the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. Not only was it an attack on American soil, but the target was a gay bar.

It's a big mistake to play this off as a case of some mixed up kid.

LOL! No, this wasn't the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. The Beslan School Siege, the Madrid Train bombings, the 2008 Mumbai attacks, etc...

It really helps to know what you're talking about before actually talking.

 

[Napoleon]

They're expanding their tactics. This is the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. Not only was it an attack on American soil, but the target was a gay bar.

It's a big mistake to play this off as a case of some mixed up kid.

I didn't say it was just a case of a "mixed up kid', but I also don't believe the motive behind selecting this target is as simplistic as 'bad Muslims no like gays.'

 

[TurtleDude]

With the loud music, people said it sounded like "pops." But there's a snap chat video made by one of the victims and you can hear the pops in the background as the shooting started.

well Moot I wasn't there. But I was 15 yards from John Bonham when LZ played Cincinnati, in the front row of a Ramones concert in Ithaca and equally close to "Our Lady Peace" in Cincinnati and the main act-Page and Plant in 95. and I have also heard an AR 15 shot inside without having ear protection. No way it would sound just like pops unless he had a can on the rifle.

 

[The Mark]

We will never know why this person carried out this act. The best we can hope for is to cherry pick the points we agree with and declare them the reason, while dismissing any points we disagree with.

That's the worst we can hope for.
The best is for everyone to agree they don't know and accept we never will.

 

[Kobie]

They're expanding their tactics. This is the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. Not only was it an attack on American soil, but the target was a gay bar.

It's a big mistake to play this off as a case of some mixed up kid.

Considering the shooter claimed support of two diametrically opposed Islamist organizations, it sounds exactly like a case of "some mixed up kid."

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Considering the shooter claimed support of two diametrically opposed Islamist organizations, it sounds exactly like a case of "some mixed up kid."

at different times in his life is the impression I got. almost like a flavor of the month for whatever islamist was most successful at the time.

 

[countryboy]

LOL! No, this wasn't the most successful terrorist attack since 9/11. The Beslan School Siege, the Madrid Train bombings, the 2008 Mumbai attacks, etc...

It really helps to know what you're talking about before actually talking.

On American soil.

 

[Kobie]

at different times in his life is the impression I got. almost like a flavor of the month for whatever islamist was most successful at the time.

His claim of support for Hezbollah came in 2013, which isn't all that long ago. It's an odd situation, could be an FOTM thing or just whatever name popped into his head.