Orlando Terror Attack Live Updates: [READ THE OP BEFORE POSTING]

[EMNofSeattle]

At this point it doesn't seem he was radicalized by ISIS. His exwife said he was violent and bipolar and would frequently rant about homosexuality. His dad said that his son saw two men kissing in public recently and he had his little son with him and it set him off. A mad nut declaring allegiance to ISIS doesn't mean ISIS got to him. It just means he's ****ing nuts.

If they find a link of communication with ISIS later, then you might have something. As of now it looks more like a mentally deficient ****tard went crazy.

ISIS may not have called him up personally, the problem is, they have called for lone wolf attacks in the west, and their success in the ME is inspiring people as the first moslem army in generations to actually take ground. it's not a stretch to say he might not have gone off in this way if ISIS wasn't operating in the ME.

 

[azgreg]

I've got some issues with what's been reported so far.

1. At this point it's been implied that all of the dead and all of the injured were shot. That just doesn't sound right to me. Stuff has happened at other clubs and there have been many deaths due to trampling and subsequent asphyxiation. I find it strange that we haven't heard anything about that so far.

2. If all 102-103 victims were shot and several were shot multiple times that's a lot of ammunition that got used. One would have to figure that the shooter fired over 200 rounds and that takes time. It's kind of surprising that nobody tried to stop him.

3. The cops waited 3 hours to enter the building. I wasn't there so I don't know the situation but that sure seems like a long time to wait when you KNOW that the perp is willing to kill.

4. I saw a video of the police assault. While there wasn't much to see you could hear the gunfire and somebody expended a whole lot of ammo during the raid. I have to question whether the perp was the only casualty there.

5. The guy in Orlando acted alone, didn't use explosives and took out roughly 1/3 of the club patrons. The Bataclan incident also caused death or injury to roughly 1/3 of the patrons but involved three attackers and explosives. The numbers just seem off for this last incident and lead me to believe that there is more to this story.

I don't think that there's any conspiracy going on here but I'm pretty sure that the current version of the story isn't the one we're going to have once everything gets sorted out.

I'm wondering if he was using something heavier than a .223 cal... AR that is... fatality rate seems high, unless he's a very good shoot or finished most of his victims from close range while they sat frozen in panic. Hard to say... I suppose we'll find out eventually.

With a large crowd it's possible a lot of the rounds went through one body and into another standing right behind.

 

[humbolt]

Ah, that makes sense...I had heard "50 dead" earlier and wondered how that went down. There's still 50 dead, it's just that one of them was the person who killed the other 49.

I believe the distinction is important. Others may not share that view.

 

[apdst]

I'm wondering if he was using something heavier than a .223 cal... AR that is... fatality rate seems high, unless he's a very good shoot or finished most of his victims from close range while they sat frozen in panic. Hard to say... I suppose we'll find out eventually.

The reports on the videos I've seen make me to think that he was most likely firing .223.

7.62/.308 would have produced more casualties.

It sounds like he was highly mobile once he entered the building. He entered one bathroom and shot through the door of another bathroom.

I heard there was an off duty cop and an armed security guard. Anyone have confirmation on that?

 

[apdst]

With a large crowd it's possible a lot of the rounds went through one body and into another standing right behind.

.223 wouldn't have had that much penetration.

 

[azgreg]

.223 wouldn't have had that much penetration.

Close range and missing bones a .223 can go through.

 

[apdst]

Close range and missing bones a .223 can go through.

Under perfect conditions anything is possible, but the probability of a .223 round producing multiple casualties is low. A .308, .30-06, or another caliber in that neighborhood? It would be a given. Those rounds hhave the weight and mass to created a cavity in which the bullet can pass, without deflecting inside the body.

 

[TurtleDude]

Npr is reporting that the first wife claims he was abusive.

This person was investigated by the FBI it seems that they failed in this case

he twice was investigated by the FBI and they did nothing in terms of reporting him to any data base. He twice bought firearms legally, meaning when he filled out the paperwork and a background check was conducted, there was nothing in his record that indicated he could no legally own firearms. I would note that he also was an armed licensed security guard which meant he passed another background check to get that

 

[danarhea]

From the link in the OP:

FBI director: Mateen claimed loyalty to Islamist groups that are opposed to each other

Orlando gunman Omar Mateen told a 911 dispatcher he was attacking an LGBT nightclub on behalf of the leader of the Islamic State, but he also expressed solidarity with the 2013 Boston Marathon bombers and an American suicide bomber in Syria who was not affiliated with Islamic State, FBI's Director James Comey said Monday.

Comey said Mateen's statements added "confusion" about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other.

While working as a courthouse guard in 2013, Mateen made "inflammatory and contradictory" statements to co-workers about having relatives in Al Qaeda, the radical Sunni terrorist group, Comey said. Mateen also claimed to be a member of Hezbollah, Lebanon's Shiite militia, and his remarks drew an 11-month FBI investigation, Comey said. Both groups oppose Islamic State.


He sounds like a wannabe. A very confused young man.

Which means the reason he claimed to be inspired by ISIS was for name recognition only. And the reason ISIS took responsibility for the attack was also for name recognition.

The fact is, his ex-wife said to police investigators that he was not a very religious person. However, he was a very abusive person who repeatedly beat her when supper was not on time, the dishes were not done on time, or for any number of a myriad of reasons.

This shooter was clearly unhinged and wanted to have his 15 minutes of fame. That's what he got, 15 minutes of fame, and although his heinous act will not be forgotten, people will forget the name when asked who did it. They will just say "It was a crazy person".

On another note, I just got back from a memorial to the victims that was held at a nearby Jewish temple over on Braeswood Ave here in Houston. There were Jews there, naturally, but there were also Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, a Hindu couple, and some Baha'i's there. It was a huge coming together of many different faiths, denouncing the attack, and denouncing hate and violence in general. I generally do not cry.... ever.... but this event did bring tears to my eyes. I am not ashamed. I wept.

My take on violence in general is that, in a nation of 300 million people, there are going to be a few who commit acts like this. It can't be helped. It's going to happen, due to the diversity of peoples' mentalities. All we as a people can do is come together and show that, whatever religion we happen to be, whatever color, or whatever nationality, these freaks do not represent us, whoever we are.

 

[TurtleDude]

I've got some issues with what's been reported so far.

1. At this point it's been implied that all of the dead and all of the injured were shot. That just doesn't sound right to me. Stuff has happened at other clubs and there have been many deaths due to trampling and subsequent asphyxiation. I find it strange that we haven't heard anything about that so far.

2. If all 102-103 victims were shot and several were shot multiple times that's a lot of ammunition that got used. One would have to figure that the shooter fired over 200 rounds and that takes time. It's kind of surprising that nobody tried to stop him.

3. The cops waited 3 hours to enter the building. I wasn't there so I don't know the situation but that sure seems like a long time to wait when you KNOW that the perp is willing to kill.

4. I saw a video of the police assault. While there wasn't much to see you could hear the gunfire and somebody expended a whole lot of ammo during the raid. I have to question whether the perp was the only casualty there.

5. The guy in Orlando acted alone, didn't use explosives and took out roughly 1/3 of the club patrons. The Bataclan incident also caused death or injury to roughly 1/3 of the patrons but involved three attackers and explosives. The numbers just seem off for this last incident and lead me to believe that there is more to this story.

I don't think that there's any conspiracy going on here but I'm pretty sure that the current version of the story isn't the one we're going to have once everything gets sorted out.

the normal response to an "active shooter" is to engage the shooter as soon as possible. I don't know if he went from hostage taker to active shooter or if he was an active shooter who then took hostages and that would change the protocol on proper police responses


Its my belief that if all the dead are autopsied, I suspect some of those slain were killed by police gun fire. that still makes the scumbag responsible but I think that is the case

 

[Lutherf]

With a large crowd it's possible a lot of the rounds went through one body and into another standing right behind.

If he winged someone or otherwise missed bone altogether. Still, that would be an inordinate amount of over penetration. My working theory is that more than 202 rounds were fired and the article just got it wrong.

 

[danarhea]

the normal response to an "active shooter" is to engage the shooter as soon as possible. I don't know if he went from hostage taker to active shooter or if he was an active shooter who then took hostages and that would change the protocol on proper police responses


Its my belief that if all the dead are autopsied, I suspect some of those slain were killed by police gun fire. that still makes the scumbag responsible but I think that is the case

I agree. It's a tough call. do the police go in aggressively with the result that people die, or do they stand down and even more people die? IMHO, the police did the right thing.

 

[apdst]

ISIS may not have called him up personally, the problem is, they have called for lone wolf attacks in the west, and their success in the ME is inspiring people as the first moslem army in generations to actually take ground. it's not a stretch to say he might not have gone off in this way if ISIS wasn't operating in the ME.

The FBI is taking the precaution of assuming Mateen was part of a cell. They're scouring for accomplices.

 

[azgreg]

Under perfect conditions anything is possible, but the probability of a .223 round producing multiple casualties is low. A .308, .30-06, or another caliber in that neighborhood? It would be a given. Those rounds hhave the weight and mass to created a cavity in which the bullet can pass, without deflecting inside the body.

If he winged someone or otherwise missed bone altogether. Still, that would be an inordinate amount of over penetration. My working theory is that more than 202 rounds were fired and the article just got it wrong.

Oh I get it. The probabilities are pretty slim. I'm just spit-balling ideas to account for the number of injuries per rounds fired.

 

[Napoleon]

I agree. It's a tough call. do the police go in aggressively with the result that people die, or do they stand down and even more people die? IMHO, the police did the right thing.

On the otherhand, it should not have taken three hours to assemble the necessary personnel and armor.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's another part of the puzzle--his being checked out in 2013 and 2014.

yes plus he was able to become an armed and licensed private security guard. I don't know what you have to go through to get such a license but when I was appointed to the DOJ, I had a background check that involved

FBI agents interviewing kids I had coached when I was a grad student 5-6 years prior to my appointment.

Interviewing EVERY attorney in the firm of 50 or so that I had worked for

interviewing every neighbor (about 34) within a 100 yards of my home in a suburban neighborhood of 1/2 to 3/4 acre lots.

every doctor I had listed I had seen in the five years prior to my appointment.

neighbors in the apartment I had lived in 5 years prior to the appointment

the woman I dated in college and the one I dated in Law school etc

 

[TurtleDude]

I agree. It's a tough call. do the police go in aggressively with the result that people die, or do they stand down and even more people die? IMHO, the police did the right thing.

if the killer is already shooting people-there is only one proper response-engage the shooter ASAP without waiting for backups.

if the shooter takes hostages first-you wait until he kills once-then its based on access and how many he is killing

 

[apdst]

Oh I get it. The probabilities are pretty slim. I'm just spit-balling ideas to account for the number of injuries per rounds fired.

He scored a very high rate of casualties, for sure. Unfortunately, this shooter may have been an above average shooter and knew how to handle his weapon.

 

[Lutherf]

There are new reports out that this guy had been a patron at the club for a year or so and had been in contact with others there through a certain chat application. It's starting to look like this was less an act of hatred against homosexuals and more an act of self hatred. If he was really dealing with sexual identity issues and chose to work things out this way it just adds a whole new level of tragedy to this already awful event.

Gunman Omar Mateen visited gay nightclub a dozen times before shooting, witness says - Orlando Sentinel

 

[Chillfolks]

The fact he had frequented the club may help explain why he was able to kill and hurt so many folks. He knew his way around the club and were people tend to stack up. Making his victims easier targets

 

[apdst]

There are new reports out that this guy had been a patron at the club for a year or so and had been in contact with others there through a certain chat application. It's starting to look like this was less an act of hatred against homosexuals and more an act of self hatred. If he was really dealing with sexual identity issues and chose to work things out this way it just adds a whole new level of tragedy to this already awful event.

Gunman Omar Mateen visited gay nightclub a dozen times before shooting, witness says - Orlando Sentinel

Self identity issues, or reconoitering the target? What nights were more, or less crowded. Reading the regulars for counter threats (certainly wouldn't to show up one night while 20 armed, off duty cops are there). Memorizing the floor plan: escape routes, hiding places, blind spots, obstacles, egress points, avenues of approach, fields of fire.

 

[Moot]

Has anyone heard or read that Mateen visited Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012?

edit: Here, I just found a link...

Omar Mateen traveled to Saudi, UAE Umrah - Business Insider


I think we have a Saudi problem.

 

[apdst]

Has anyone heard or read that Mateen visited Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012?

edit: Here, I just found a link...

Omar Mateen traveled to Saudi, UAE Umrah - Business Insider


I think we have a Saudi problem.

He also went to the UAE. Those trips may be where became so tactically proficient.

 

[Lutherf]

Self identity issues, or reconoitering the target? What nights were more, or less crowded. Reading the regulars for counter threats (certainly wouldn't to show up one night while 20 armed, off duty cops are there). Memorizing the floor plan: escape routes, hiding places, blind spots, obstacles, egress points, avenues of approach, fields of fire.

Possibly, though taking a year to do that plus contacting individuals through some chat app would point to something other than recon.

 

[Moot]

He also went to the UAE. Those trips may be where became so tactically proficient.

Or radicalized. Didn't the San Bernardino killers go to Saudi Arabia, too?