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One thing I have never understood....

Navy Pride

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One thing I have never understood about the hate for our military during the Vietnam Conflict.........I know the left wing liberal media and people like Kerry piutting us down by calling us murderers, rapists and baby killers did not help the situation and all the publicity "Hanoi" Jane Fonda got when she was on that gun mount in North Vietnam did not help...............

We in the military were just trying to do our job to the best of our ability and to be spit on and insulted upon our return to the U.S. was totally out of line.........

Now you start seeing the same thing starting to happen in Iraq with the Cindy Sheehan, Senators Durbin and Kennedy.........

It is really sad that the left in this country could stoop so low........
 

shuamort

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Navy Pride said:
One thing I have never understood about the hate for our military during the Vietnam Conflict.........I know the left wing liberal media and people like Kerry piutting us down by calling us murderers, rapists and baby killers did not help the situation and all the publicity "Hanoi" Jane Fonda got when she was on that gun mount in North Vietnam did not help...............

We in the military were just trying to do our job to the best of our ability and to be spit on and insulted upon our return to the U.S. was totally out of line.........

Now you start seeing the same thing starting to happen in Iraq with the Cindy Sheehan, Senators Durbin and Kennedy.........

It is really sad that the left in this country could stoop so low........
For the most part I agree with you. :shock: I know....

A big part of it is the "kill the messenger" mentality. That the troops part and parcel support the war, its mission, its purpose, and all of the actions that happen therein. It's like blaming a mail clerk at Tyco for what the CEO did.

The problem is, your sig line and the thought behind that which lends to the extreme opposite mentality of what you're condemning in your post. What is a person to do if they're against the war? Let's take an extreme example here. The next president, whoever that may be, decides to declare war on Canada because of something ridiculous like they don't tax cigarrettes enough. We're sending soldiers in and war is being fought. The US citizens disagree with the war, should they protest? Should they rally against the war that's being driven by the president? Or should they keep their mouths shut because the troops don't want to hear the dissent that the people think the war is asinine?

To put it simply, it's not the troops' fault we went to Viet Nam, it was the administration's. It's not the troops' fault we went to Iraq, it's the administration's. A protest against the war is a protest against the administration's decision and not the troops. Or at least, it should be.
 

Navy Pride

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shuamort said:
For the most part I agree with you. :shock: I know....

A big part of it is the "kill the messenger" mentality. That the troops part and parcel support the war, its mission, its purpose, and all of the actions that happen therein. It's like blaming a mail clerk at Tyco for what the CEO did.

The problem is, your sig line and the thought behind that which lends to the extreme opposite mentality of what you're condemning in your post. What is a person to do if they're against the war? Let's take an extreme example here. The next president, whoever that may be, decides to declare war on Canada because of something ridiculous like they don't tax cigarrettes enough. We're sending soldiers in and war is being fought. The US citizens disagree with the war, should they protest? Should they rally against the war that's being driven by the president? Or should they keep their mouths shut because the troops don't want to hear the dissent that the people think the war is asinine?

To put it simply, it's not the troops' fault we went to Viet Nam, it was the administration's. It's not the troops' fault we went to Iraq, it's the administration's. A protest against the war is a protest against the administration's decision and not the troops. Or at least, it should be.
The time to protest a war you don't think is just is before it starts........I don't know if you have ever watched the anti war protests prior to war in Iraq but the groups that organized the protests like ANSWER are asubversive organization that has received a lot of its financial support from North Korea..

How do you think our troops in Iraq feel when they see the American Flag being burned and trashed by these scum? I can tell you from my own personal experience morale is very important in combat.......The guys in Iraq know that the terrorists can never defeat us.......The only thing that can beat us is public opinion driven by the Liberal Media and the left in this country......

As far as my sig line goes The President of the United Sates is the Commander in Chief of the military....In the chain of command he is the number one troop.......Once combat has begun it is impossible to support the troops and not support the number one troop.........It is impossible to support the troops and not support the mission they are trying to accomplish........

Anyhow thanks for your partial agreement, I think that is probably a first between us............
 

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But don't forget the "thousands" of our troops in Nam (like me) that kissed U.S. soil when they returned and thanked the protesters for getting them out of Nam!
When I returned I remember seeing clips of BULL DOG NIXONs face on TV saying, send in 50,000 MORE TROOPS, like we were just a bunch of cattle.

If it were NOT for the protesters protesting DURING Nam, many more would have died there.

Most guys I knew in NAM were GLAD to get out of there no matter WHAT was said by the protesters!

I didn't hear of ONE of our troops saying that they were MAD that the protesters got them out! Although WE did not agree with some of the methods the protesters used WE sure do thank them for getting us out of Nam!
BTW: You make it seem like ALL the protesters were spitting on us and calling us names! NOT TRUE! MOST protesters were the ones carrying around pictures of us, lockets and other things. And how about all the YELLOW RIBBONS the protesters were carrying with them?
Guess you forgot about all of those things!

YOU could have VOLUNTEERED to stay there! DID YOU?:roll:
 
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FinnMacCool

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Its kinda bad to disrespect the armed forces in vietnam cause a lot of them didn't want to be there in the first place. I don't understand the logic of getting all pissed at an american draftee especially since its not their choice to to vietnam.
 

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I wasn't around during vietnam so I can't really comment on what happened. What the far left is doing today is disgusting. However I believe that only a small portion of the left is involved in these acts of disrespect. These people should be banished. When we fry our own boys because they acted reactively in an extremely hostile situation we are no better than our enemies. Who are we to second guess our brave soldiers in times of war (unless of course it is an obvious criminal act)?

I really do hope we can all unite soon. The paritisan games both sides are playing are going to destroy our country.
 

cnredd

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mistermain said:
I wasn't around during vietnam so I can't really comment on what happened. What the far left is doing today is disgusting. However I believe that only a small portion of the left is involved in these acts of disrespect. These people should be banished. When we fry our own boys because they acted reactively in an extremely hostile situation we are no better than our enemies. Who are we to second guess our brave soldiers in times of war (unless of course it is an obvious criminal act)?

I really do hope we can all unite soon. The paritisan games both sides are playing are going to destroy our country.
I would've hoped that the majority of the left that you think do not get involved in these "acts of disrespect" would denounce the actions of this minority...

This has not happened...
 

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cnredd said:
I would've hoped that the majority of the left that you think do not get involved in these "acts of disrespect" would denounce the actions of this minority...

This has not happened...
You're absolutely right. These fanatics have been put up on a pedestal. The majority I referred to needs to smack these people down. They do nothing but harm our country.

Good call CN!
 

cnredd

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mistermain said:
You're absolutely right. These fanatics have been put up on a pedestal. The majority I referred to needs to smack these people down. They do nothing but harm our country.

Good call CN!
But instead they make one of them the the head of the DNC...

Shows you how much the moderate left wing will "denounce"...:roll:
 

cnredd

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This is the part of the thread when a Liberal will enter, see these last few comments, and instead of agreeing, will redirect the accusations...

"Well how come the Conservatives don't denounce THIS?...or THIS...etc...?":roll:
 

Navy Pride

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taxpayer said:
But don't forget the "thousands" of our troops in Nam (like me) that kissed U.S. soil when they returned and thanked the protesters for getting them out of Nam!
When I returned I remember seeing clips of BULL DOG NIXONs face on TV saying, send in 50,000 MORE TROOPS, like we were just a bunch of cattle.

If it were NOT for the protesters protesting DURING Nam, many more would have died there.

Most guys I knew in NAM were GLAD to get out of there no matter WHAT was said by the protesters!

I didn't hear of ONE of our troops saying that they were MAD that the protesters got them out! Although WE did not agree with some of the methods the protesters used WE sure do thank them for getting us out of Nam!
BTW: You make it seem like ALL the protesters were spitting on us and calling us names! NOT TRUE! MOST protesters were the ones carrying around pictures of us, lockets and other things. And how about all the YELLOW RIBBONS the protesters were carrying with them?
Guess you forgot about all of those things!

YOU could have VOLUNTEERED to stay there! DID YOU?:roll:
You mean you were part of John Kerry's"Band of Brothers."...Maybe you don't have a problem with being spit on and called names but all the Vietnam Vets I know did.......

I guess you don't have a problem with 58,000 GIs(6 personal friends of mine) dying for nothing because your friends and you did not have the stomach to finish the job and wanted to cut and run....That does not even count the millions of Vietnamese who were sympathetic to the U.S. being massacured after we left.........

Thank God no matter how much you lefties whine this President will not cut and run...........
 

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Navy Pride said:
You mean you were part of John Kerry's"Band of Brothers."...Maybe you don't have a problem with being spit on and called names but all the Vietnam Vets I know did.......

I guess you don't have a problem with 58,000 GIs(6 personal friends of mine) dying for nothing because your friends and you did not have the stomach to finish the job and wanted to cut and run....That does not even count the millions of Vietnamese who were sympathetic to the U.S. being massacured after we left.........

Thank God no matter how much you lefties whine this President will not cut and run...........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NA! I was not any part of Kerrys Band! Maybe YOU were, who knows!

I was just another Grunt that wanted to live!

NA! I had the stomach to do what ever it took to accomplish our missions, stay alive and protect my buddies in Nam! I did whatever I was asked to do no questions asked.

Cut and run??? NA! Where was I going to cut and run to in NAM? Ever been there?

BTW: Bush alwready cut and run from serving in Nam! He was home putting yellow ribbons on trees to show his support for the ones fighting in Nam! Thanks for your service putting up yellow ribbons Bush! Now theres someone you should be bashing and questioning! At least Kerry served!
 
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Navy Pride

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taxpayer said:
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NA! I was not any part of Kerrys Band! Maybe YOU were, who knows!

I was just another Grunt that wanted to live!

NA! I had the stomach to do what ever it took to accomplish our missions, stay alive and protect my buddies in Nam! I did whatever I was asked to do no questions asked.

Cut and run??? NA! Where was I going to cut and run to in NAM? Ever been there?

BTW: Bush alwready cut and run from serving in Nam! He was home putting yellow ribbons on trees to show his support for the ones fighting in Nam! Thanks for your service putting up yellow ribbons Bush! Now theres someone you should be bashing and questioning! At least Kerry served!

NA! I was not any part of Kerrys Band! Maybe YOU were, who knows!
Yeah, right

Cut and run??? NA! Where was I going to cut and run to in NAM? Ever been there?
two tours in country........

BTW: Bush alwready cut and run from serving in Nam! He was home putting yellow ribbons on trees to show his support for the ones fighting in Nam! Thanks for your service putting up yellow ribbons Bush! Now theres someone you should be bashing and questioning! At least Kerry served
it always get back to the president with you Bush Haters.....I would love to see you pilot and F102.........

as far as kerry goes you need to check out the site swiftboat vets for the truth.You might actually learn something
 

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Navy Pride said:
Yeah, right



two tours in country........
--------------
NO COMMENT!!!


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it always get back to the president with you Bush Haters.....I would love to see you pilot and F102.........
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I took some flying lessons. If Bush can pilot one then I guess I can too!

How many missions did Bush fly in NAM?<<<(0)<<<:roll: :doh Thats what counts!
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as far as kerry goes you need to check out the site swiftboat vets for the truth.You might actually learn something
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Our Vets have a right to state their feelings. But remember, listen to what many others Vets have to say too! They like Kerry.
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Anyway, can you post without personally bashing someone! Seems thats your way of hiding from the truth.
 

Navy Pride

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taxpayer said:
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Our Vets have a right to state their feelings. But remember, listen to what many others Vets have to say too! They like Kerry.
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Anyway, can you post without personally bashing someone! Seems thats your way of hiding from the truth.
Kerry is a hero to the VC and the NVN..........He helped them win the war.....Do you feel like he does that the military that fought in Nam were all murderers, rapists and baby killers?

How you can defend what the left did to our returning troops from Nam is unbelieveable........You should join Cindy Sheehan........You fit right in.......
 

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taxpayer said:
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Our Vets have a right to state their feelings. But remember, listen to what many others Vets have to say too! They like Kerry.
-------------
Anyway, can you post without personally bashing someone! Seems thats your way of hiding from the truth.
My Father doesn't and neither does the Veteran community surrounding Camp Lejeune.

You've got your facts wrong also regarding what the protester did for you. They, along with the political dissent in Washington, actually prolonged the war and cost more lives.
 
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galenrox

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GySgt said:
My Father doesn't and neither does the Veteran community surrounding Camp Lejeune.

You've got your facts wrong also regarding what the protester did for you. They, along with the political dissent in Washington, actually prolonged the war and cost more lives.
please explain the last part. It doesn't sound right to me, but you know more about this sort of thing, so please enlighten me how exactly a large group of people who want to end the war could accidentally prolong it, other than the ones in power were jerks and prolonged it just to spite the dissenters.
 

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galenrox said:
please explain the last part. It doesn't sound right to me, but you know more about this sort of thing, so please enlighten me how exactly a large group of people who want to end the war could accidentally prolong it, other than the ones in power were jerks and prolonged it just to spite the dissenters.
If you haven't noticed, I am very knowledgable on foreign affairs and miltary tactics. It is sort of a passion. I live for this stuff. I am not at home, so I cannot pull off a commentary I wrote on this very subject. Instead, I found this site quickly enough that talks of the basics. My commentary is better, but this one will do......


"The strategy adopted by the Vietnam anti-war movement in the late 1960s was to demand unilateral withdrawal and to mount mass demonstrations to demonstrate public opposition to the war. In retrospect that approach can be seen as a strategic error that allowed the Nixon administration to prolong the war for four more years. The error lay in the failure to focus on developing a proposal for the negotiated withdrawal of U.S. troops under a peace settlement at a time when it could have been an effective form of pressure on Nixon."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/ngos/advocacy/protest/general/2005/0404endoccup.htm
 

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I think we don't understand it because we apply logic to try determine a reasonable answer to the situation. Logic simply does not apply against emotion especially when someone is so emotional that even a reasonable point is put forth it is simply ignored. They were so dead set against the war they struck out at anything that had anything that had to do with the war. Of course I have applied the logic that told me this after 15 years of marriage and dealing with a female that logic simply doesn't apply to if she is emotional. OK OK just kidding ladies don't attack the messanger.:lol:
 

SouthernDemocrat

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When are you right wingers going to quit trying to re-fight the Vietnam War?

Anyone seen that documentary about Robert McNamara, The Fog of War. In it, he talks about 11 lessons that Vietnam taught us, or at least should have:


· We misjudged then -- and we have since -- the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

· We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

· We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

· Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

· We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

· We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action.

· After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.

· We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

· We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

· We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

· Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues.

I think that those lessons are certainly applicable to the war in Iraq as well.
 

fyrefighter

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I think the gist of the original post was about why the military was treated like dogs by the public during the war. I could be wrong but that is what I got out of it.
 

cnredd

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SouthernDemocrat said:
When are you right wingers going to quit trying to re-fight the Vietnam War?
When are YOU going to learn to STOP
generalizing and putting everybody with one corresponding opinion into the same group?

You would gain MUCH more credibility once you refrain from total character assasination by claiming people are living by some sort of blanket rulebook.

I'm gonna fill you in on a little something...

There are Christians that AREN'T right wing...

There are Liberals that DO agree with the war on Iraq...

There are Socialists that think Bush has done a good job...

There are Conservatives that think he hasn't...

There are Conservatives that DON'T like Rush Limbaugh...

There are Liberals that DON'T like Michael Moore...

There are Christians that DO believe abortion should be legal...

Not everyone "tows the party line" just because they agree with something here and there, and you narrow-minded placing them into a certain group is very insulting.:(
 

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cnredd said:
When are YOU going to learn to STOP
generalizing and putting everybody with one corresponding opinion into the same group?

You would gain MUCH more credibility once you refrain from total character assasination by claiming people are living by some sort of blanket rulebook.

I'm gonna fill you in on a little something...

There are Christians that AREN'T right wing...

There are Liberals that DO agree with the war on Iraq...

There are Socialists that think Bush has done a good job...

There are Conservatives that think he hasn't...

There are Conservatives that DON'T like Rush Limbaugh...

There are Liberals that DON'T like Michael Moore...

There are Christians that DO believe abortion should be legal...

Not everyone "tows the party line" just because they agree with something here and there, and you narrow-minded placing them into a certain group is very insulting.:(

Damn....right in the mouth. How'd that uppercut feel Southern 'D'?
 

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GySgt said:
My Father doesn't and neither does the Veteran community surrounding Camp Lejeune.

You've got your facts wrong also regarding what the protester did for you. They, along with the political dissent in Washington, actually prolonged the war and cost more lives.[/QU

------------
I have NEVER heard of one Vet ever saying:
I am NOT glad to be on American soil again, I wish I were still fighting in Nam!
 

SouthernDemocrat

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cnredd said:
When are YOU going to learn to STOP
generalizing and putting everybody with one corresponding opinion into the same group?

You would gain MUCH more credibility once you refrain from total character assasination by claiming people are living by some sort of blanket rulebook.

I'm gonna fill you in on a little something...

There are Christians that AREN'T right wing...

There are Liberals that DO agree with the war on Iraq...

There are Socialists that think Bush has done a good job...

There are Conservatives that think he hasn't...

There are Conservatives that DON'T like Rush Limbaugh...

There are Liberals that DON'T like Michael Moore...

There are Christians that DO believe abortion should be legal...

Not everyone "tows the party line" just because they agree with something here and there, and you narrow-minded placing them into a certain group is very insulting.:(
It’s not character assassination, its tongue in cheek - you know dry humor or sarcasm.

Everyone generalizes. I have been referred to as a liberal on here dozens of times, yet anyone could read my posts on economics and see that I am not.

About half of Christians are not right wing. I am perfect example of one that isn’t.

The majority of Christians are pro-choice to one degree or another. I am a perfect example of one that is.

There are lots of liberals who don’t like Michael Moore.

There are conservatives that don’t like Limbaugh.

I will go out on a limb though and say that there are probably few if any socialists and liberals who think that Bush has done a great job.

You’re generalizing in your response because you are implying that most Christians are conservative and pro-life.
 
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