Oldest Christian inscription naming JESUS as GOD

[LittleNipper]

So, you admit it is NOT the trinity...got it...

The fact that JESUS is deity is the mystery of the TRINITY.

 

[redbeer]

Most recent opinion "I know this Spirit, have seen the glory and have Christ 'in' me.......not from repeating scripture, but from experience."

Lol, where in that does it mean I have no need for scripture??? You don't think others besides trinitarians have experiences with God?.....is that what you are implying? Guess one must be a trinitarian to believe them, huh? It really matters not to me personally, but lay off the twisting of my words.

The SON is no less GOD than the FATHER. I'm not less human than my father. JESUS doesn't still possess the same body HE had before HIS resurrection... It's the body that dies. CHRIST commended HIS SPIRIT to the FATHER.

There is only ONE, who is God......there is no other. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, born a true human being, proved by the cross and it's his blood which saves us. Your Jesus could not have died on the cross, but only a nature he assumed. Trins even speak of Jesus as if he speaks at times from one nature, then other times from the other nature, only to make scripture fit, lol.

Jesus has been glorified, receiving the promise of the HS.....of course the body Jesus now has is not flesh and bone. It surely was when he walked this earth and the time between the resurrection and ascension, Jesus was still in a body of flesh and bone, but once ascended receiving the promise of the HS, Jesus is now glorified. Paul speaks of this body and the same body Jesus now has, so will we.


(1Co 15:42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(1Co 15:43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Again, you belittle the scripture: But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. So do you regard yourself as foolish or wise?

You must have been taught and believe the trinity came from God and scripture, but that's not true. Even during Paul's time, he was contending with false prophets/apostles and the spirit of antichrist. Original Christians who held onto the faith were severely persecuted and put to death, because of which was common during the time, "syncretism", a mixture of religious beliefs and this is how paganism crept into Christianity.

By the time of Nicene, Platonic and Greek philosophy ruled the world amongst the elite and religious leaders. These brought in ancient religions from Egypt and Babylon with their own twist and a Roman dictator accepted it as the government's religion. The rest is history, easy to search, study, and find.

 

[Daisy]

easy to search, study, and find.

True but evidently not so easy to accept/believe, once you've been ingrained with a lie all your life...

 

[redbeer]

True but evidently not so easy to accept/believe, once you've been ingrained with a lie all your life...

I'm glad to have never bought into that deception, for it has many tangled in its web. I don't think it's so much their belief in the trinity, it's the hatred they harbor for those who disagree. Religious pride is much worse than the normal pride of man, as it takes it to a much higher level of hate/anger, imo, from what I've seen and experienced.

God speaks of it as a Leviathan, a beast of great strength and pride: read Job 41, entire chapter.

 

[Daisy]

I'm glad to have never bought into that deception,

Oh, I did buy into it but was young when I learned the truth so it was much easier to accept...

Religious pride is much worse than the normal pride of man, as it takes it to a much higher level of hate/anger, imo, from what I've seen and experienced.

Agreed...there's nothing quite like it imo...

God speaks of it as a Leviathan, a beast of great strength and pride: read Job 41, entire chapter.

I have, sounds very much like a crocodile to me and we know how vicious they can be...lol...

 

[Logician Man]

redbeer said:
Religious pride is much worse than the normal pride of man, as it takes it to a much higher level of hate/anger, imo, from what I've seen and experienced.

Agreed...there's nothing quite like it imo...

@Daisy/Elora said:
I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who chooses to leave Jehovah...

 

[LittleNipper]

Lol, where in that does it mean I have no need for scripture??? You don't think others besides trinitarians have experiences with God?.....is that what you are implying? Guess one must be a trinitarian to believe them, huh? It really matters not to me personally, but lay off the twisting of my words.



There is only ONE, who is God......there is no other. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, born a true human being, proved by the cross and it's his blood which saves us. Your Jesus could not have died on the cross, but only a nature he assumed. Trins even speak of Jesus as if he speaks at times from one nature, then other times from the other nature, only to make scripture fit, lol.

Jesus has been glorified, receiving the promise of the HS.....of course the body Jesus now has is not flesh and bone. It surely was when he walked this earth and the time between the resurrection and ascension, Jesus was still in a body of flesh and bone, but once ascended receiving the promise of the HS, Jesus is now glorified. Paul speaks of this body and the same body Jesus now has, so will we.


(1Co 15:42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(1Co 15:43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



You must have been taught and believe the trinity came from God and scripture, but that's not true. Even during Paul's time, he was contending with false prophets/apostles and the spirit of antichrist. Original Christians who held onto the faith were severely persecuted and put to death, because of which was common during the time, "syncretism", a mixture of religious beliefs and this is how paganism crept into Christianity.

By the time of Nicene, Platonic and Greek philosophy ruled the world amongst the elite and religious leaders. These brought in ancient religions from Egypt and Babylon with their own twist and a Roman dictator accepted it as the government's religion. The rest is history, easy to search, study, and find.

Good, I'm very glad that you believe that the entire book of GENESIS is entirely true. Then Elohim (plural form of Deity) said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground. Genesis 1:23. I always believed that CHRIST is GOD. The FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ELOHIM/GOD.

 

[Daisy]

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.

The title ʼElo·himʹ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator. It appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number. (Ge 1:1–2:4) In him resides the sum and substance of infinite forces.

In many places in the Scriptures ʼElo·himʹ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·ʼElo·himʹ, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54; brackets his.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Ray+Ladson&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Daisy]

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo·himʹ, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called benehʹ ha·ʼElo·himʹ, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·himʹ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).

The word ʼelo·himʹ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. However, these gods were clearly not trinities.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon); 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk).

At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001729

 

[MamboDervish]

Good, I'm very glad that you believe that the entire book of GENESIS is entirely true. Then Elohim (plural form of Deity) said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground. Genesis 1:23. I always believed that CHRIST is GOD. The FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ELOHIM/GOD.

Nothing in Genesis is true. Not one single word. We've known for a couple of hundred years already that it is nothing more than tall tales told to precocious children, mere stories for the superstitious. Most of the cosmology in it was debunked half a millennium ago, and every few decades another Genesis fable vaporizes in the mist. Believing in Genesis literally requires abandoning belief in observable reality.

 

[redbeer]

Good, I'm very glad that you believe that the entire book of GENESIS is entirely true. Then Elohim (plural form of Deity) said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground. Genesis 1:23. I always believed that CHRIST is GOD. The FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ELOHIM/GOD.

If you went to school and learned this about the word "Elohim", you better ask for a refund. If you learned it from listening to others, maybe you have been listening to the wrong people. Your definition defies God's commands.

 

[LittleNipper]

Nothing in Genesis is true. Not one single word. We've known for a couple of hundred years already that it is nothing more than tall tales told to precocious children, mere stories for the superstitious. Most of the cosmology in it was debunked half a millennium ago, and every few decades another Genesis fable vaporizes in the mist. Believing in Genesis literally requires abandoning belief in observable reality.

You may find this interesting, even if you choose to no believe any of it:

 

[LittleNipper]

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.

The title ʼElo·himʹ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator. It appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number. (Ge 1:1–2:4) In him resides the sum and substance of infinite forces.

In many places in the Scriptures ʼElo·himʹ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·ʼElo·himʹ, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54; brackets his.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Ray+Ladson&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I would say that Elohim refers to the GODHEAD and ultimately to the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. They are ONE in essence, but remain three persons. Non-Messianic Jews have long held this not to be the case, because they do not wish to move JESUS into the spotlight -------- nor believe their MESSIAH has already been here as the REDEEMER. They seek an earthly leader.

 

[redbeer]

For anyone interested, here is a video explaining the usage of singular and plural verbs associated with Elohim. Interesting how scripture uses singular verbs when discussing the One True God, but when discussing false gods it uses plural verbs. So, it gives us a way to distinguish truth from fiction. If you have time and desire to learn, here you go:

 

[MamboDervish]

You may find this interesting, even if you choose to no believe any of it:

How silly are you! You think that the mere existence of real estate locations is somehow support for assertions as stupid and ridiculous as the creation cosmology of Genesis? Seriously? Even if there is some truth in your video postings (and I can't imagine who I would have to become to waste my time watching them) who gives a **** about suspicions of the mere existence of one town or another? If they found a huge stone lintel with "WELCOME TO SODOM!" written on it, it would still change nothing.

Mankind is not descendant of Adam, nor Eve, nor Noah and his family. We've known about our genetic roots for a couple of generations already, and no biblical text is going to magically eradicate that knowledge. Genesis is bunkum.

 

[Daisy]

I would say

You would be wrong...

 

[LittleNipper]

How silly are you! You think that the mere existence of real estate locations is somehow support for assertions as stupid and ridiculous as the creation cosmology of Genesis? Seriously? Even if there is some truth in your video postings (and I can't imagine who I would have to become to waste my time watching them) who gives a **** about suspicions of the mere existence of one town or another? If they found a huge stone lintel with "WELCOME TO SODOM!" written on it, it would still change nothing.

Mankind is not descendant of Adam, nor Eve, nor Noah and his family. We've known about our genetic roots for a couple of generations already, and no biblical text is going to magically eradicate that knowledge. Genesis is bunkum.

Seriously? YOU stated NONE of GENESIS is true. Now you say that the real estate could be factual, but everything else isn't. Fine, you accept what your atheistic brain wishes, and reject what you don't wish to accept... However, I've proven to anyone with any honesty, that YOUR original blanket statement is error. The simple fact is that much of the "real estate" that archaeologist have discovered only has been found because the Bible recorded anything about it and not in spite of it nor your rejection of it as not a single word as being true. You proven that your views and opinions are founded on being severely disingenuous.

 

[MamboDervish]

Seriously? YOU stated NONE of GENESIS is true. Now you say that the real estate could be factual, but everything else isn't.

Oh PUH-LEEEZE !! You think the naming of some towns in the Middle East gives the cosmology and content in Genesis credibility? Really? Then I guess you'd be the first person on Earth to whom the laws of physics and biology don't apply. Lucky you!

Fine, you accept what your atheistic brain wishes, and reject what you don't wish to accept...

I'm not an atheist.

However, I've proven to anyone with any honesty, that YOUR original blanket statement is error.

Congratulations! Here's a medal for your efforts. I'm sure they were exhaustive.

The simple fact is that much of the "real estate" that archaeologist have discovered only has been found because the Bible recorded anything about it and not in spite of it nor your rejection of it as not a single word as being true. You proven that your views and opinions are founded on being severely disingenuous.

No - I've proven no such thing. You, on the other hand, have proven what a flimsy thread you're willing to base your fundamental beliefs on. Here's what you sound like to someone who recognizes that Genesis is nothing more than a compilation of one ancient myth after another.

"Bu ... bu ... but their really are Jews in the world, and Israel EXISTS! The book must be right about everything!"

Be sure and fill me in on whatever the talking serpent and burning bush tell you. I wouldn't want to miss a word of it.

 

[LittleNipper]

Oh PUH-LEEEZE !! You think the naming of some towns in the Middle East gives the cosmology and content in Genesis credibility? Really? Then I guess you'd be the first person on Earth to whom the laws of physics and biology don't apply. Lucky you!

I'm not an atheist.

Congratulations! Here's a medal for your efforts. I'm sure they were exhaustive.


No - I've proven no such thing. You, on the other hand, have proven what a flimsy thread you're willing to base your fundamental beliefs on. Here's what you sound like to someone who recognizes that Genesis is nothing more than a compilation of one ancient myth after another.

"Bu ... bu ... but their really are Jews in the world, and Israel EXISTS! The book must be right about everything!"

Be sure and fill me in on whatever the talking serpent and burning bush tell you. I wouldn't want to miss a word of it.

If you were to change the line just a little bit it better suit you. "Bu ... bu ... but there really were dinosaurs in the world, and Darwin was a scientist! So, His book must be right about everything!"

 

[LittleNipper]

All other verses must be understood in light of the unmistakable fact that Jesus is the uncreated Creator.

One parting thought. The following exercise resolves the translation controversy of verse one. Is the Word fully God or merely “a god”? John’s teaching in verse three makes unmistakable the intent of his opening remark:
.John 1:3.
In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God
and the Word was God.

If you want to prove the Trinity, then, all you need to do is show that three specific truths are taught in Scripture. First, there’s only one God. Second, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are truly distinct persons. Third, each has the essential attribute of deity. That’s it.

The first item–the oneness of God–is virtually uncontested by those challenging the Trinity on Scriptural grounds. Almost all who hold Scripture in high regard acknowledge the famous Shema of Deuteronomy 6:1, “”Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! ”

The second, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are truly distinct persons, is denied by modalists like Oneness Pentecostals. They hold there is one God who manifests Himself in different “modes” at different times, sometimes as the Father and sometimes as the Son. The popular illustration of the Trinity that a man can be a father to his son yet, in other modes, a husband to his wife and a brother to his siblings is a fine illustration of this second-century heresy, and not the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. In this view the Father and the Son are both fully God, but there is no genuine distinction between the persons, only a linguistic distinction.

The third, that the distinct persons are each fully God, is denied by Arians like Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jesus and the Father are distinct persons, they say, but do not share the essential attribute of deity. Only the Father is God. Jesus is a lesser, created “god.”

Most discussions of this nature focus initially on John 1:1. It says,

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

That’s the way your Bible reads.

But the Jehovah’s Witness’s New World Translation renders the verse this way:

“In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

Just drop down two verses. Verse three says,

“All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

The NWT is virtually the same:

“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”

Have your visitor read the verse out loud. Then take out a napkin or a piece of scratch paper and draw a large box. Explaining that this box represents everything that exists. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories. It will look something like this:

Continue below:

 

[LittleNipper]

On the left side write “all things that never came into being,” that is, all things that exist but have never been created.

Ask any person “What goes in that box?” If he says “God” he got the right answer. God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word “God” in the left-hand side of your box.

Label the right side “all things that came into being,” that is, all created things.



Continue below:

 

[LittleNipper]

Write “all created things” there.

Everything in this box was created through Jesus, according to verse three. Ask your friend if he understands that.

Now write “created through Jesus” outside the box and run an arrow to the right side. Your box should now look something like this:

Take a moment to point out to your guest how this illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was or ever will be. Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.

According to the law of excluded middle either a thing was created or it wasn’t created—there is no third option—so the categories are all-encompassing.

According to the law of noncontradiction a thing can’t be both created and not created, so the categories are mutually exclusive. Any particular thing has to be one or the other. It’s very simple.


Continue one more time:

 

[MamboDervish]

If you were to change the line just a little bit it better suit you. "Bu ... bu ... but there really were dinosaurs in the world, and Darwin was a scientist! So, His book must be right about everything!"

Your silly rewrite doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the breadth and depth of the science that guts and filets the biblical accounts of creation. Arguably over 80% of Earth and planetary science, starting with things as fundamental as Physics and Astrophysics, totally eviscerates it. And the amazing, and perhaps unexpected beauty of it all, is that those dozens of completely different and seemingly unrelated sciences all corroborate each other's timeline with astonishing synchronicity.

When it comes to debunking Genesis, Darwin and dinosaurs are the least of your problems. You can't even get past the weather man.

 

[redbeer]

In understanding John 1 correctly we must have this in context:


(Joh 1:18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


In the beginning, we can go back to Genesis 1 and see words such as "said" and "called" and things came into being. Similar to "logos" in John 1, for God's spoken 'words' carry power and oftentimes God uses angels, prophets, apostles and the Christ to carry and 'speak' His "Logos".

We can easily ascertain through the gospels that Jesus did not come speaking his own words, but those of His Father, whom Jesus calls the only true God. Now taking John 1: 18 in account......take it to the 1st verse......remember Genesis 1 and now Jesus not speaking his words. The "Word" or "Logos" are the words of God being spoken by the Christ of God.

Plenty of men saw Jesus and all the disciples knew Jesus was speaking the words given to him from the Father. People love to twist things to make false doctrine fit the simplicity of scripture.

Remember with Christ, Jesus was the First to have his body as the temple for where God was to dwell. God worked mightily through Jesus the Christ. The disciples knew that God was with and 'in' Christ. Confusing the Christ OF God TO God, the message is missed.

(Joh 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Don't forget the 18th verse again or the power of the "Logos" of God......no man has seen God at any time. Yet, now what?.....The Logos was made flesh? What can this mean? The Logos are things said/spoken by God, and now the Christ who is the express image of God who came speaking the "logos" of His Father (God) was made flesh, as the glory of the only begotten of the Father.

It's simple, the Word, Logos, spoken word of God are the very words of the Father, who Jesus calls the only true God, spoken TO us through His Son, Jesus the Christ.

 

[LittleNipper]

Your silly rewrite doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the breadth and depth of the science that guts and filets the biblical accounts of creation. Arguably over 80% of Earth and planetary science, starting with things as fundamental as Physics and Astrophysics, totally eviscerates it. And the amazing, and perhaps unexpected beauty of it all, is that those dozens of completely different and seemingly unrelated sciences all corroborate each other's timeline with astonishing synchronicity.

When it comes to debunking Genesis, Darwin and dinosaurs are the least of your problems. You can't even get past the weather man.

Here is newly discovered scientific research surrounding Moses and the Exodus. Maybe you'll simply poo poo this also, but others here may see the implications. And there are not a few things to consider. The experts are not always entirely correct about anything.