Oceangate Titan: analysis of an insultingly predictable failure

[DrewPaul]

Well they’re all wealthy enough to do so and I don’t know how airtight the waiver is, definitely not a legal expert…

But I don’t know if you can sign away negligence in its totality.

There is seemingly a lot of damning evidence that the operator knew and ignored warnings about the safety of the craft so it’ll be interesting to see how it turns out against the balance of the waiver.

It will certainly be fought in court. Those pursuing the case will get discovery regarding the safety of the craft and any other dirt they can find. I'm sure they won't just demand a refund they'll want punitive damages which could be harder to prove. Or they might just discreetly settle.

 

[ASHES]

 

[DrewPaul]

Understood, one never hears that the deceased was screaming, in ungodly pain and begging for their mama…….


Edit: according to reports, the Navy forwarded the information to the CG, but the results weren’t conclusive.

They also see the resulting debris field. I don't know how much more evidence you need to believe it was instantaneous as possible. They would be making something up if they said otherwise.

 

[DrewPaul]

I’m disappointed in the pictures that I have seen of the well worn trail up Everest. What is wrong with the authorities that they don’t track what is taken up and make sure that an equal amount or the waste, comes down?

They did start a bounty program for returning Oxygen bottles and other junk with mixed results.

 

[Allan]

I was impressed by Josh Gates' response. He declined the opportunity because of safety concerns.

These folks were cowboys.

From CNN (although the interview was on MSNBC):

Gates and his team ultimately decided not to go through with filming a segment about OceanGate's plans for submersible trips to the Titanic wreck because he felt the program wasn't ready.


Gates explained that in 2021 he learned there were four ways for the vessel to shed weight and bring it back up to the surface in the case of an emergency.
There is a computer-controlled weight release, a manual-valve system that injects air into exterior ballast containers, a hydraulic system to drop weights and an ability to detach from the sled attached to the submersible and help move the vessel back to the surface.
“On one hand you have this incredibly innovative, novel design," Gates said. "On the other hand, there are a lot of unknowns."

I want to scream every time I see an interview with Stockton Rush where he states innovation is impossible without breaking the rules.

Thank God he didn't work for Boeing or Airbus.

 

[Rexedgar]

I want to scream every time I see an interview with Stockton Rush where he states innovation is impossible without breaking the rules.

Thank God he didn't work for Boeing or Airbus.

737 MAX ring a bell?

Those jets were in service to Ethiopian Airlines and Lion Air in Jakarta, not United or Delta……..

 

[DrewPaul]

I want to scream every time I see an interview with Stockton Rush where he states innovation is impossible without breaking the rules.

Thank God he didn't work for Boeing or Airbus.

Apparently a good imitation worked for Boeing only in their case it was greed not innovation.

 

[Allan]

737 MAX ring a bell?

Those jets were in service to Ethiopian Airlines and Lion Air in Jakarta, not United or Delta……..

Yes but that innovative was within a framework of testing and approval.

 

[Jetboogieman]

It will certainly be fought in court. Those pursuing the case will get discovery regarding the safety of the craft and any other dirt they can find. I'm sure they won't just demand a refund they'll want punitive damages which could be harder to prove. Or they might just discreetly settle.

It will certainly be interesting, I think there’ll be communications that will be pretty damning, texts, emails, internal memos, WhatsApps probably all showing that he was fully aware and advised of the shortcomings of the craft, the danger it posed to the passengers and how he responded to that.

Time will tell, but given the little we know already at the damning reports and court documents show there was no way Stockton wasn’t aware of the concerns from the engineering team about the design.

I guess the legal question might come down to, were the passengers fully aware even with a death waiver of the shortcomings of the vessel.

If the leaked waiver is real clause 2 reads:

2. A portion of the operation will be conducted inside an experimental submersible vessel. The experimental submersible vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and may be constructed of materials that have not been widely used in human occupied submersibles.

Does that truly cover “we knew and were advised that the vessel contained potentially catastrophic flaws and we decided to use it anyway”.

Guess we’ll find out.

Edit: and just to make things extra spicy… if the leaked waiver document is real, the company is registered in the Bahamas. So that complicates any potential legal action. But I don’t know the intricacies of that.

 

[Rexedgar]

Yes but that innovative was within a framework of testing and approval.

Where was it tested?

 

[Rexedgar]

It will certainly be interesting, I think there’ll be communications that will be pretty damning, texts, emails, internal memos, WhatsApps probably all showing that he was fully aware and advised of the shortcomings of the craft, the danger it posed to the passengers and how he responded to that.

Time will tell, but given the little we know already at the damning reports and court documents show there was no way Stockton wasn’t aware of the concerns from the engineering team about the design.

I guess the legal question might come down to, were the passengers fully aware even with a death waiver of the shortcomings of the vessel.

If the leaked waiver is real clause 2 reads:

2. A portion of the operation will be conducted inside an experimental submersible vessel. The experimental submersible vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and may be constructed of materials that have not been widely used in human occupied submersibles.

Does that truly cover “we knew and were advised that the vessel contained potentially catastrophic flaws and we decided to use it anyway”.

Guess we’ll find out.

I resisted chiming in early. I hold your contributions to the board in high regard, but turning this into a skins and shirts issue is troublesome. Some of the generalities are valid, but overall this was a misfire, imo.

 

[Allan]

Where was it tested?

The system had been around for a while and was tested as to it's effectiveness in pulling out of stalls. What Boeing didn't do was test for the potential of a malfunctioning sensor.

 

[Rexedgar]

The system had been around for a while and was tested as to it's effectiveness in pulling out of stalls. What Boeing didn't do was test for the potential of a malfunctioning sensor.

I’m just ****ing with you, but you haven’t answered my question.

 

[Allan]

I’m just ****ing with you, but you haven’t answered my question.

Yes it was tested. No I don't have links. If I had links I wouldn't share them with you.

So there.

 

[Rexedgar]

Yes it was tested. No I don't have links. If I had links I wouldn't share them with you.

So there.

It was tested on the well tanned folks. I had no idea that Ethiopia had an airline.

 

[DrewPaul]

Guess we’ll find out.

Edit: and just to make things extra spicy… if the leaked waiver document is real, the company is registered in the Bahamas. So that complicates any potential legal action. But I don’t know the intricacies of that.

Still, their goal and business model was to have safe successful repeatable voyages to the shipwreck and back. Personally I'd rather go see the Grand Canyon. A lot safer (though people die there too). But only when they use conservative guides who guide them into a bottomless pit.

 

[Allan]

I had no idea that Ethiopia had an airline.

Not any more.

 

[eohrnberger]

If so, the waiver is the only thing airtight………….

Ooofff!

 

[ASHES]

Coast Guard just released that they're bringing up the debris for their investigation.

 

[Allan]

Coast Guard just released that they're bringing up the debris for their investigation.

They're going to find microscopic stress fractures.

 

[Galactic Spin]

This tragedy had nothing to do with American conservatism or "poor Republicans" not learning some stupid lesson you imagine they need to learn.

Right, it was used as an analogy. Do you understand what an analogy is?

 

[Winston]

Excellent video from a guy whose specialty this is.

The amount of flaws and problems here are off the scales and indeed, a catastrophic failure in the way this craft was being used was in fact a predictable disaster from the start.

I do find this a perfect cautionary tale of modern American conservatism.

Here you had a billionaire, railing against regulation, said and I quote “over the top in their rules and regulations”.

When you give large corporations and eccentric billionaires a blank Cheque to put money above people, safety and the environment in order to make a quick buck… this is ultimately the result.

But poor republicans will never learn that lesson, voting against their own interests is what they do.

It’s a good point and having read the replies from the usual suspects I’ll just say that they would at the same time vote into office politicians that champion deregulation while claiming no fault when a disaster happens for lack of regulation.

No personal responsibility just finger pointing and obstinate voting patterns despite consequences to the public and the planet. Republicanism is both a religion and a fantasy world. Where devotion to the GOP is paramount and reality is mix and match whatever makes them feel better about voting for politicians that actively harm the planet and the public

 

[EdwinWillers]

Are you aware that regardless the manner of death, military survivors are always told that their loved ones died “almost immediately and didn’t have time to suffer?”
It’s meant to make the survivors feel better. No one wants to hear the details…..

??? Um, What does that have to do with the price of anything anywhere?

Fact is, in this situation, that's precisely what happened. Death was instantaneous. So what's this nonsense about you feeling a need that I be "aware" of something?

 

[EdwinWillers]

Coast Guard just released that they're bringing up the debris for their investigation.

That's excellent. Thanks for sharing. We should eventually have definitive proof of what caused this tragedy.

My guess is what one of the previous engineers stated about carbon fiber stressing in this environment; that yes, the Titan's carbon fiber shell could take them to 4000 meters - once, maybe twice, but that the strength of the hull deteriorated significantly with each dive.

 

[Rexedgar]

??? Um, What does that have to do with the price of anything anywhere?

Fact is, in this situation, that's precisely what happened. Death was instantaneous. So what's this nonsense about you feeling a need that I be "aware" of something?

If you can’t connect the dot, I can’t help.