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Obama compares Ho Chi Minh with the founding fathers

calamity

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You know why he started his revolution in 1941? Because he was a coward, that's why. In 1941, France was gone. Conquered by the Nazis. He had no real opposition to fight against. And he didn't give his people freedom and democracy, he gave them communism. He's not close to a George Washington, he's more like a Lenin.



No, you can't. You need to be a complete moron to support communism. And a psychopath.
If this were true, we would not have been stuck fighting in Nam during the late 1960's. Duh.
 
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You haven't been paying attention have you.
Communism is not just a flawed ideology. It's a life/nation-destroying, freedom-taking, anti-logical (so not just illogical, anti-logical) ideology whose scars can be seen all accross Eastern Europe and East Germany even today. And they are deep scars.

So yes. He should be considered a psychopath and a moron.


COLD WAR ALERT!!!!
 

Unitedwestand13

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You haven't been paying attention have you.
Communism is not just a flawed ideology. It's a life/nation-destroying, freedom-taking, anti-logical (so not just illogical, anti-logical) ideology whose scars can be seen all accross Eastern Europe and East Germany even today. And they are deep scars.

So yes. He should be considered a psychopath and a moron.

We are only judging communism on the results of its implementation. Ho chi min probably chose communism because one of its intended principles was equality, a principle that no communist government has so far been able to show it can promote equality.
 

Fiddytree

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We are only judging communism on the results of its implementation. Ho chi min probably chose communism because one of its intended principles was equality, a principle that no communist government has so far been able to show it can promote equality.

There comes a time when failed implementation begins to legitimately create doubt in the usefulness and justness of a system. If the concept sounds good, but nearly every time or every time is severely destructive and unproductive, then it is right to warn against it. If you can't make it work with people, you need to start over again with a new idea, or an old one.

Why some liberals and progressives keep this trope up is beyond me. You wouldn't see them advocate for an unregulated free-market or fascism, based off of empirical historical evidence of its flaws, but by God, you might see some of them defend the goodness of Communism despite similar or different concerns.
 
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You know why he started his revolution in 1941? Because he was a coward, that's why. In 1941, France was gone. Conquered by the Nazis. He had no real opposition to fight against. And he didn't give his people freedom and democracy, he gave them communism. He's not close to a George Washington, he's more like a Lenin.



No, you can't. You need to be a complete moron to support communism. And a psychopath.

OMG! I wonder who the Vietnamese were fighting then and who the hell were we supporting?
 

Rainman05

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If this were true, we would not have been stuck fighting in Nam during the late 1960's. Duh.

I don't understand what you're getting at? The US involvement in Vietnam had nothing to do with France. It was to support anti-communist forces fighting against the communist forces. The communist forces being North vietnam and the anti-communist being Not-north vietnam (South vietnam).

Ho chin Mingh was a moron. You need to understand this. Even with no real French military presence, he failed to conquer and take all of what was then French Indochina or even what was considered to be traditionally Vietnam regions. Because he was incompetent. And to compensate for his incompetence, he built a huge cult of personality around him.
 

Rainman05

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We are only judging communism on the results of its implementation. Ho chi min probably chose communism because one of its intended principles was equality, a principle that no communist government has so far been able to show it can promote equality.

No, he chose it because he was a moron. And convinced other morons to join in on the whole debacle. Causing a big mess in what was then French Indochina.
 

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I think that the Vietnam War has been over since 30 April, 1975, That's over 38 years ago.

I was in Vietnam in 1965 and 1966, with the US Army. I think that we should give it a rest, it's an old, sad, story and talking about it now won't change what happened there, for good or bad.

What we should talk about is how we're going to prevent the same thing happening again.

That would be a good conversation that might accomplish something.
 

Unitedwestand13

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I don't understand what you're getting at? The US involvement in Vietnam had nothing to do with France. It was to support anti-communist forces fighting against the communist forces. The communist forces being North vietnam and the anti-communist being Not-north vietnam (South vietnam).

Ho chin Mingh was a moron. You need to understand this. Even with no real French military presence, he failed to conquer and take all of what was then French Indochina or even what was considered to be traditionally Vietnam regions. Because he was incompetent. And to compensate for his incompetence, he built a huge cult of personality around him.

Ah the domino theory.

Just to remind you, in 1941 veitnam was not under the control of the French, but under Vichy France, which collaborated with nazi germany until France was fully occupied following the allied invasion of North Africa. And veitnam was also being contested by the Japanese and ho chi min fought againist them too. In fact the United States actually supported ho chi min clandestinely via the OSS.


And why did we never respond to ho chi min's requests for support? He quoted and cited the Atlantic charter too?
 

rathi

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You are grossly ignorant of history Rainman. The French had a substantial military presence in Indochina even after Paris fell. The Japanese moved in the area in September of 1940. Then the Thai declared war on the French and they fought for a few months until the Japanese forced the conflict to end. Ho Chi Minh wasn't even in the country until 1941. He returned to set up a resistance network. He was then captured by the Chinese and held for two years until 1943.
 
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Dittohead not!

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I think that the Vietnam War has been over since 30 April, 1975, That's over 38 years ago.

I was in Vietnam in 1965 and 1966, with the US Army. I think that we should give it a rest, it's an old, sad, story and talking about it now won't change what happened there, for good or bad.

What we should talk about is how we're going to prevent the same thing happening again.

That would be a good conversation that might accomplish something.

Wouldn't it have been a good idea to have had such a conversation before going into Iraq?
 

Dittohead not!

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I don't understand what you're getting at? The US involvement in Vietnam had nothing to do with France. It was to support anti-communist forces fighting against the communist forces. The communist forces being North vietnam and the anti-communist being Not-north vietnam (South vietnam).

Ho chin Mingh was a moron. You need to understand this. Even with no real French military presence, he failed to conquer and take all of what was then French Indochina or even what was considered to be traditionally Vietnam regions. Because he was incompetent. And to compensate for his incompetence, he built a huge cult of personality around him.

If we were really fighting Communism, as the government contended at the time, why is Vietnam a capitalist country today? Did we win the war? Somehow, the fall of Saigon didn't look to me like a victory party for our side.
 

specklebang

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Ho Chi Minh pretty much kicked the ass of the biggest war machine in the world. You might hate the result but that doesn't mean you can't respect the accomplishment.

Vietnam is progressing like crazy and headed toward being China's main subcontractor. Considering our long period of sulking and not cooperating with them, they've done pretty good. I'm proud of them (I was there 1965-1967) and I'm seeing a story-book ending.

To pay him a compliment while addressing Vietnamese is logical and appropriate.

...and I'm not an Obama fan.
 

shrubnose

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Wouldn't it have been a good idea to have had such a conversation before going into Iraq?




Back when G.H. W. Bush went to war with Iraq in 1991, I spoke against it, also when his so G. W. Bush invaded Iraq in 2003, I opposed that.




The USA has gained nothing for its huge expenditure of human lives and cash in Iraq, but Iran has gained a lot.
 

Dittohead not!

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Back when G.H. W. Bush went to war with Iraq in 1991, I spoke against it, also when his so G. W. Bush invaded Iraq in 2003, I opposed that.



The USA has gained nothing for its huge expenditure of human lives and cash in Iraq, but Iran has gained a lot.

Exactly. We either learn from history, or are doomed to repeat it. Vietnam may be in the distant past, but it is a part of our history and needs to be remembered.
 

specklebang

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I thought the 1991 war was an appropriate, measured response to events unfolding. It was quick, quiet and as clean as any warfare can be. Fixed the problem, went away. The later Iraq war was the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on America, and that's really saying a lot.

Sometimes, war is the answer. War should be purposeful and have specific objectives. Do it and go.
 

shrubnose

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I thought the 1991 war was an appropriate, measured response to events unfolding. It was quick, quiet and as clean as any warfare can be. Fixed the problem, went away. The later Iraq war was the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on America, and that's really saying a lot.

Sometimes, war is the answer. War should be purposeful and have specific objectives. Do it and go.




I was opposed to the USA's involvement in the 1991 Iraq War because I did not believe that the war would do a damn thing to help the USA. And it didn't.

I'm not going to get into a conversation about the morality of the war.
 

Redress

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You haven't been paying attention have you.
Communism is not just a flawed ideology. It's a life/nation-destroying, freedom-taking, anti-logical (so not just illogical, anti-logical) ideology whose scars can be seen all accross Eastern Europe and East Germany even today. And they are deep scars.

So yes. He should be considered a psychopath and a moron.

So communism is just like conservatism?
 

a351

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While I can see why some would find the remarks offensive, he did not liken Ho Chi Minh to the founders, but rather stated he was inspired by them. His statements were by all indications accurate and likely a show of good faith in order to improve Vietnamese/US relations.
 

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I thought the 1991 war was an appropriate, measured response to
events unfolding. It was quick, quiet and as clean as any warfare can be. Fixed the problem, went away. The later Iraq war was the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on America, and that's really saying a lot.

Sometimes, war is the answer. War should be purposeful and have specific objectives. Do it and go.

Had the 1991 war ACTUALLY have been the resoubding success you claim it to be, there wouldn't have been a " latter " Iraq war.

It was foolish to leave THAT dictator in power
 

specklebang

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Apparently I hold Bush Sr, in higher regard than you do. We didn't need to deal with Hussein then and we didn't need to deal with him in 2003 but Bush Jr. found a way to make billions for his friends.




Had the 1991 war ACTUALLY have been the resoubding success you claim it to be, there wouldn't have been a " latter " Iraq war.

It was foolish to leave THAT dictator in power
 

Rainman05

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If we were really fighting Communism, as the government contended at the time, why is Vietnam a capitalist country today? Did we win the war? Somehow, the fall of Saigon didn't look to me like a victory party for our side.

Because it reformed itself. Starting from the late 1980s they embarked on a similar reform process to that of China. It's still a single party state, with the communist party being said party, but it abandoned the economic side of communist doctrine... or has begun to abandon it, in favor for a capitalist one. But the political and social parts of communism are still well in place in the country.It's like a mini-China.

Capitalism is not the antithesis of communism. Capitalism has only an economic component to it. Communism has a political, economic and social component.
 

Redress

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No. There's nothing else like communism.

You said this:

Communism is not just a flawed ideology. It's a life/nation-destroying, freedom-taking, anti-logical (so not just illogical, anti-logical)

Which sounds just like conservatism.
 

Peter King

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Fox would take a dim view ;) because they do that on virtually anything any democrat says.

And mother Jones would usually take completely the other view, but on this issue they are right because even Wikipedia states the same:

Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, they expected U.S. President Woodrow Wilson to help remove the French colonial rule from Vietnam and ensure the formation of a new, nationalist government.

Ho Chi Minh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nguyễn Sinh Cung, later known as Ho Chi Minh, plead with the American president, Woodrow Wilson for help in ending French Colonial rule, but was denied. Minh attempted to gain the assistance of the Americans to draft a constitution, and did draft a Vietnamese Declaration of Independence similar to the American document.

What caused the Vietnam War to start -
 
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