Obama’s Pick for ATF Chief Is ‘Anti-Gun,’ Say Pro-Second Amendment Groups

[Goshin]

Like I already said, read what I wrote. But then again, there are no pictures so I guess it is too difficult for you. Here, allow me to assist you. If you need me to draw up a graph just PM me.

Where do criminals get guns?

The same place law abiding citizens do.

Law abiding citizens are indistinguishable from people buying guns for the purposes of selling to criminals.

If registration existed, the "gun traffickers" would not be able to peddle guns to criminals.


It's that simple.

Actually it isn't.

For starters, there's the 250 to 300 million guns already in circulation, most of which are not registered. For a glimpse at how many would be registered, we can look at Canada's failed attempt to register guns. Probably less than 15%.

Then there's other ways; listing guns as "lost" or "stolen". Stealing guns from the rightful owners, a popular means already; smuggling guns in over the borders, just as drugs are smuggled.

The fact that a firearm is registered would not deter a crazy person, just as "no gun school zones" don't deter them now. The wide availability of unregistered firearms already in circulation would serve criminals well for at least a century, and bear in mind how unsuccessful we've been in preventing drug smuggling: gun smuggling would be about as easy. Getting unregistered guns to commit armed robberies or murders with would not be hard at all.

Historically, registration has often lead to confiscation in many countries. In California, registration lead to broad classes of firearms being banned.

To infringe on a fundamental right, you need to show a compelling state intrest, and demonstrate that it would serve a useful purpose without being burdensome to the law-abiding. No such compelling intrest has been shown; the usefulness is highly debateable; the potential for registration being used in later bans is burdensome to the law-abiding.

Registration does not pass the strict test for Constitutionality.

 

[God]

You called the AK47 obsolete again, even though it has proven it self far more reliable / versatile then the M4 system. If you want to be taken seriously you should try to avoid stating opnion as fact. You bring up irrelevant issues a lot I see. Automatic weapons are not a problem in the US. Most crimes are committed with hand guns, not long guns. Please try and stay on track. I know it is hard and you must constantly change the subject in order to make your argument.

You can't even convince me of your views, and I probably own more firearms then you. Your views are too dated and they read word for word from the Republican talking points book. Period.




You scare me. I think you should only be allowed to own a .22

 

[TurtleDude]

You called the AK47 obsolete again, even though it has proven it self far more reliable / versatile then the M4 system. If you want to be taken seriously you should try to avoid stating opnion as fact. You bring up irrelevant issues a lot I see. Automatic weapons are not a problem in the US. Most crimes are committed with hand guns, not long guns. Please try and stay on track. I know it is hard and you must constantly change the subject in order to make your argument.

You can't even convince me of your views, and I probably own more firearms then you. Your views are too dated and they read word for word from the Republican talking points book. Period.




You scare me. I think you should only be allowed to own a .22

1) I guess you missed the quotation marks around the AK-and yes ,the 47 is obsolete-the country of its origin is now using variations of the AK 74 which fires the 5.45X39 cartridge. I know I have versions of the AK 47, the AKM and the 74

2) you have yet to come up with a valid argument supporting registration. Goshin just schooled you as I did.

3) not only am i licensed to carry concealed weapons, I have taught hundreds of people the CCW course and have worked with federal and state law enforcement officers teaching them shooting techniques. I was one of the top "pin" shooters in the country and a world class skeet shooter. so you can stick that in your pipe and smoke it

and I did carry a 22 short once-as a third back up

 

[God]

"the potential for registration being used in later bans is burdensome to the law-abiding."

Opinion boldly stated as fact does not necessarily make it so. It is obvious that you have not attended law school, nor do you have a background in criminal justice or constitutional law.


A quote from a show comes to mind, I think it went something like this:

"You shouldn't talk... It makes you sound stupid."

Something isn't true just because you want it to be. Comparing what happens in other Countries is very disingenuous, seeing how America is fundamentally different from other Countries. Look at health care, it hasn't even been fully enacted and it seems it will already be defeated. Maybe you should put some more faith in the American people and less in fairy tales.

 

[TurtleDude]

"the potential for registration being used in later bans is burdensome to the law-abiding."

Opinion boldly stated as fact does not necessarily make it so. It is obvious that you have not attended law school, nor do you have a background in criminal justice or constitutional law.


A quote from a show comes to mind, I think it went something like this:

"You shouldn't talk... It makes you sound stupid."

Something isn't true just because you want it to be. Comparing what happens in other Countries is very disingenuous, seeing how America is fundamentally different from other Countries. Look at health care, it hasn't even been fully enacted and it seems it will already be defeated. Maybe you should put some more faith in the American people and less in fairy tales.

Well "God" not only have I attended and graduated from one of the best law schools in the USA, I have lectured on second amendment issues at several accredited law schools.

so why don't you post your credentials rather than making a fool of yourself

Goshin was a law enforcement officer meaning he is clearly qualified to offer an expert opinion on this issue as am I.

He already proved that AMERICANs have had weapons CONFISCATED due to registration in places like California, NJ and NYC

so come on counselor (LOL) tell us why registration works.

 

[Goshin]

"the potential for registration being used in later bans is burdensome to the law-abiding."

Opinion boldly stated as fact does not necessarily make it so. It is obvious that you have not attended law school, nor do you have a background in criminal justice or constitutional law.


A quote from a show comes to mind, I think it went something like this:

"You shouldn't talk... It makes you sound stupid."

Something isn't true just because you want it to be. Comparing what happens in other Countries is very disingenuous, seeing how America is fundamentally different from other Countries. Look at health care, it hasn't even been fully enacted and it seems it will already be defeated. Maybe you should put some more faith in the American people and less in fairy tales.

:mrgreen: I'm an ex-cop. I've actually had training that related to Constitutional Law... we needed to know it so we would know how not to trample someone's rights.

Resorting to personal disparagement and straw man arguments is usually a sign that a debater's position is weak. :2wave:

 

[TurtleDude]

:mrgreen: I'm an ex-cop. I've actually had training that related to Constitutional Law... we needed to know it so we would know how not to trample someone's rights.

Resorting to personal disparagement and straw man arguments is usually a sign that a debater's position is weak. :2wave:

I think we are dealing with an anti gun troll who thought he would pretend to be pro gun. Doesn't work, seen it too many times. WE have another troll who has played this game as well. Registration has no useful purpose from a LE standpoint but is the gold standard for every anti gun group for several reasons

1) it facilitates confiscation

2) it allows an anti gun government to create lots of criminals out of honest gun owners if they fail to register their guns and with a conviction permanently disbar anyone who refuses to comply with that silly law from ever owning a gun again

3) criminals love it as well-registration lists are hardly safe from following into the wrong hands and criminals know where guns are. they can also (as they do in England and Chicago) threaten robbery victims with ratting an armed homeowner out to the police

 

[God]

"we needed to know it so we would know how not to trample someone's rights."

I guess that is why leo's are encouraged to violate the 4th amendment when it comes to searches in low income neighborhoods since the suspects will be less likely to afford lawyers to supress the ill-gotten evidence. It seems that you are living in a dream world and by having a discourse with you, I am inadvertently being made less intelligent.

I also think it is pretty pathetic when someone has to resort to censorship when they meet someone with a different opinion. Seeing as how you are so easily offended (and unable to articulate yourself with any intelligence) I will massage your ego and not disagree with you. Good luck with your life.


"I think we are dealing with an anti gun troll who thought he would pretend to be pro gun."

I'm sorry but this is getting really pathetic. Because I am not a simple minded ape I am anti gun? Really? I know I am not a typical gun owner seeing as how I don't wave the confederate flag in front of my house but you sure do make me laugh. You are so paranoid that your delusions are showing. I probably have more experience with a 1911 then you do with a B.B. gun. If you can't tell a gun owner from a liberal, it says more about your level of intelligence sir.



Turtle, you seem to be living in a fantasy world in which you are a victim.

 

[TurtleDude]

still waiting for you to establish that registration has any useful purpose

haven't seen a single valid argument yet.

we have demonstrated that registration is a tool gun banners love

so on one side we have demonstrated harm towards honest people

on the other a faith based opinion that has no empirical backing

and since you claimed Goshin didn't go to law school I am waiting for you to claim you did and what sort of law you practice

 

[Goshin]

"we needed to know it so we would know how not to trample someone's rights."

I guess that is why leo's are encouraged to violate the 4th amendment when it comes to searches in low income neighborhoods since the suspects will be less likely to afford lawyers to supress the ill-gotten evidence. It seems that you are living in a dream world and by having a discourse with you, I am inadverntantly being made less intelligent.

I also think it is pretty pathetic when someone has to resort to censorship when they meet someone with a different opinion. Seeing as how you are so easliy offended (and unable to articulate yourself with any intelligence) I will massage your ego and not disagree with you. Goodluck with your life.

The first part of your post has very little to do with the topic at hand. It would appear to be nothing more than a weak smack aimed at me for being a cop. A brush painting broadly, but as I am not guilty of such things I am unbothered.

No one is censoring you. You are free to express a contrary opinion all you like... as long as you do it politely, without resorting to personal insults or otherwise breaking the rules. You did read the rules when you joined DP?

As I said, resorting to personal attacks usually means someone has a weak argument.

 

[Goshin]

I'm sorry but this is getting really pathetic. Because I am not a simple minded ape I am anti gun? Really? I know I am not a typical gun owner seeing as how I don't wave the confederate flag in front of my house but you sure do make me laugh. You are so paranoid that your delusions are showing. I probably have more experience with a 1911 then you do with a B.B. gun. If you can't tell a gun owner from a liberal, it says more about your level of intelligence sir.
.

Intresting assertion. Can you cite credible sources, with documentation, proving that the average gun owner flies the Confederate flag at their house, or is this simply another attempt to insult those with differing views through the use of unsubstantiated slurs?

 

[God]

"As I said, resorting to personal attacks usually means someone has a weak argument. "

Yes, and I am assuming that resorting to calling someone a troll and questioning what they believe in doesn't accomplish the same thing? Not all gun owners are brainless zombies so just because I actually have a brain and can think for myself I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me what I believe in or not. I live in NJ and it took me a year to get my FID card and pistol permit when I turned 21. I have to get a pistol permit for every single handgun I own and now I can't own more then one handgun a month. I can't even own an AR15 in NJ, I have to get the netured Bushmaster .223 I can barely prepare my mossberg for home defense without having it branded as an "assault weapon" I put up a lot with Liberals and don't appreciate it when small minded people resort to telling me that I don't believe in gun ownership so excuse me if I come off as abrasive.

 

[Goshin]

"As I said, resorting to personal attacks usually means someone has a weak argument. "

Yes, and I am assuming that resorting to calling someone a troll and questioning what they believe in doesn't accomplish the same thing? Not all gun owners are brainless zombies so just because I actually have a brain and can think for myself I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me what I believe in or not. I live in NJ and it took me a year to get my FID card and pistol permit when I turned 21. I have to get a pistol permit for every single handgun I own and now I can't own more then one handgun a month. I can't even own an AR15 in NJ, I have to get the netured Bushmaster .223 I can barely prepare my mossberg for home defense without having it branded as an "assault weapon" I put up a lot with Liberals and don't appreciate it when small minded people resort to telling me that I don't believe in gun ownership so excuse me if I come off as abrasive.

You were quite rude to Turtle in several previous posts before he said that. I was nothing but polite to you, responding to the substance of your argument with logical counterpoints, and your response was a blatant personal insult without merit and without substance.

It is intresting that you seem to take polite disagreement as disparagement, respond in an excessively hostile manner, then turn around and call others "thin-skinned" when they don't like it. This is known as "projection" in psychology; putting one's own character flaws onto another person and claiming they are responsible for your own bad behavior.

It is also a very ineffective debating tactic against those who recognize it for what it is.

 

[God]

Your ability to anyalyze leaves something to be desired. If you read what I wrote you would see that I articulated my view points. When I saw something really stupid, I called it out. I can only stand so much ignorance and miscatorization of opinon as law, I apologize. It's funny how you say I am projecting, because I am fairly certain that I have a decent amount of intelligence and I am also fairly certain that someone in this thread does not.

 

[Goshin]

Your ability to anyalyze leaves something to be desired. If you read what I wrote you would see that I articulated my view points. When I saw something really stupid, I called it out. I can only stand so much ignorance and miscatorization of opinon as law, I apologize. It's funny how you say I am projecting, because I am fairly certain that I have a decent amount of intelligence and I am also fairly certain that someone in this thread does not.

I will try, once more, to explain this to you.

You presented certain points supporting one side. I presented certain counterpoints in opposition.

To debate would be to say "Your first point is wrong in this manner; your second point is in error due to Rathbone vs Fairchilde USSC 1974; your third point is invalid due to ______."

However, saying "You're stupid" is not debate. It is simply a personal attack and an unsubstantiated opinion which does not address the substance of the argument in any productive way. It has approximately the same intellectual value as a pair of fourth-graders going "is too", "is not" over and over.

 

[God]

I will try, once more, to explain this to you.

You presented certain points supporting one side. I presented certain counterpoints in opposition.

To debate would be to say "Your first point is wrong in this manner; your second point is in error due to Rathbone vs Fairchilde USSC 1974; your third point is invalid due to ______."

However, saying "You're stupid" is not debate. It is simply a personal attack and an unsubstantiated opinion which does not address the substance of the argument in any productive way. It has approximately the same intellectual value as a pair of fourth-graders going "is too", "is not" over and over.

I like how you have selective reading. I do recall being called a moron early on. I do not recall complaining about it. In any case, liberals work slow to undermine rights. Even if it is for different reasons, I am glad that eventually the rest of you are going to have to register your guns.



Also, you guys don't think that an uber left leaning government doesn't monitor gun owners through sat. technology and forums? None of you are on proxies or VPN's, your IP address is on a public domain. Registration aside, ff the government really wanted to ban all guns they would have no problem finding you.

 

[TurtleDude]

I think GOD is mad that he is burdened by the idiotic regulations imposed by New Jersey (the state that recently sentenced some guy to 7 years in prison for merely owning guns he had legally purchased in another state and brought to the Peoples' Republic of New Jersey-since commuted but the felony remains) and thinks they are good.

I am still waiting to hear why I should support registration of firearms when those who cause the majority of crime with handguns or other weapons are not required to register weapons due to the Fifth Amendment

 

[TurtleDude]

I like how you have selective reading. I do recall being called a moron early on. I do not recall complaining about it. In any case, liberals work slow to undermine rights. Even if it is for different reasons, I am glad that eventually the rest of you are going to have to register your guns.

Ah thanks for that Post. NO one called you a MORON-what I noted was that if YOU BELIEVE or ASSERT something you would be a moron to do so and again, you just proved my above point. Misery craves company and since you are under the jurisdiction of anti gun assholes, you want the rest of us to suffer such idiotic restrictions

 

[TurtleDude]

My comment in Post 96 to "God"

and you are a moron if you think that the gun banners don't want registration

if the shoe fits............................

 

[God]

Not having any restrictions on firearms would be nice however I happen to know that my chances of being killed with a firearm are far more greater in a red state then in NJ. I think I will stay in NJ for now seeing as how it would be a safer place to raise a family.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Not having any restrictions on firearms would be nice however I happen to know that my chances of being killed with a firearm are far more greater in a red state then in NJ.

That would be a compelling argument if it had any relation whatsoever with the truth.

 

[God]

Thanks, I feel that it is a compelling argument, that is why I shared it with you.

Just look at the statistics for murders via firearm and you will see for yourself.

It seems that there are some people in America that would not know the truth if it came in a double whopper with extra cheese.

 

[TurtleDude]

Goshin and I figured out that God was an anti gun troll and with a little prodding "God" came out of the ARC closet and admitted he wants the rest of the nation to be subjected to the same idiotic restrictions that the subjects of NJ have to deal with. His blather that he is safer in NJ than any red state is the kind of spewage we expect from the Brady bunch: Chicago and DC have consistently rated among the most dangerous cities in the country and they were a gun haters wet dream

BBL-I gave my son a "Henry" rifle for Xmas and we are off to the target range for him to test it out

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Moderator's Warning:

We do not call other posters "troll" Upstairs.

 

[God]

Goshin and I figured out that God was an anti gun troll and with a little prodding "God" came out of the ARC closet and admitted he wants the rest of the nation to be subjected to the same idiotic restrictions that the subjects of NJ have to deal with. His blather that he is safer in NJ than any red state is the kind of spewage we expect from the Brady bunch: Chicago and DC have consistently rated among the most dangerous cities in the country and they were a gun haters wet dream

BBL-I gave my son a "Henry" rifle for Xmas and we are off to the target range for him to test it out

I am anti gun and yet I own guns.

What does giving your son a rifle have to do with anything? I think you are greatly confused and it's sad really. You do have my pity. You can only quote Chicago and DC but refuse to look at Alaska, Ohio, Arizona, Texas, so on and so forth.


Just because I am not a narrow minded individual, like yourself, it does not mean I am anti gun. If making such accusations is necessary to bolster your irrelevant view points then by all means go ahead.