NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali law

[tererun]

According to the NRA chief LaPierre Isreal had problems with school shootings and enacted laws to prevent that action. Yes, it is true isreal seems to have far less school shootings by deranged gunmen, they also have restrictive gun ownership laws. Records from isreal show only a couple of school shootings which mostly fall under terrorism and failed hostage taking. Isreal said the types of shootings the US has do not have the same reasons behind them as Isreali school shootings.

However, Isreal does seem to be safer in the areas of crazies from their own ranks killing their children. Perhaps it is because of their gun laws. First all eople have to apply for the permission to own a gun. that application involves intense screening and training in the use of those firearms. They also have to undergo the training and medical screening every 3 years and there is no guarantee they will get their permit renewed. People have to apply for permits for each weapon they want to purchase, and it is rare a person is permitted to have more than one weapon. People applying for permits have to show a need for the weapon which involves living or working in dangerous areas of conflict in their country. Isreal says they deny about 80 percent of their permit requests. They also require that gun owners to waive their right to confidentiality while owning guns.

maybe the cheif of the NRA is onto something considering Isreal is a place where lots of armed conflict happens, and terrorism is all around them, but yet their schools remain relatively safe to gun violence? Maybe we should start looking at some of their policies like restricting gun ownership to need, forced medical and police screening on every gun purchase, not allowing private sales to circumvent those checks, and removing the confidentiality rights of those who wish to posses guns. If that system helps to protect isreal against random gun violence, then it should certainly protect the US considering we do not have a bunch of countries who violently hate us connected to us like they do.

Is it just a coincidence that a country with the least gun controls also sees some of the most violent episodes of gun violence happen far more often than other countries with stricter gun controls and bannings? Perhaps it is time for the anti-gun restriction people to start quantifying the protections and added safety they supposedly provide with some real numbers because it seems there are real numbers to support the idea that gin banning do drastically reduce the number of violent gun incidents.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Is it a coincidence that several countries with strict gun control have higher gun murder rates than the US, the most comparable one in size being Russia?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Yep. Never mind that Constitution, we need to be more like "them". That, of course, is limitted to your selection of what "them" to emulate. China has lower unemployment, a population control program that seems to work with gov't supplied abortion and great border security. Hmm...

 

[spud_meister]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Is it a coincidence that several countries with strict gun control have higher gun murder rates than the US, the most comparable one in size being Russia?

Is it a coincidence that many countries that have strict gun control also have far lower murder rate than the US?

 

[Goshin]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
skipping down a bit...
Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
skipping down some more...
Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
skipping down some more...
Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

And finally, well over halfway down the list...

USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Is it a coincidence that many countries that have strict gun control also have far lower murder rate than the US?

Impossible to determine, but the failure of gun control to be universally effective would seem to open the debate to the consideration of other factors as well.

Since you mention murder, it might interest you that nearly 100 countries have a higher overall murder (not confined to guns) rate than the US.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Impossible to determine, but the failure of gun control to be universally effective would seem to open the debate to the consideration of other factors as well.

Of course though, when it comes to factors involved in murder, the possession or not of a gun plays a very small part. The use of it in an argument on gun control is fairly meaningless. Socio-economic factors play a far greater role.

Since you mention murder, it might interest you that nearly 100 countries have a higher overall murder (not confined to guns) rate than the US.

Which means that there's nearly a hundred countries with a lower murder rate.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Yep. Never mind that Constitution, we need to be more like "them". That, of course, is limitted to your selection of what "them" to emulate. China has lower unemployment, a population control program that seems to work with gov't supplied abortion and great border security. Hmm...

Actually, if you read amendment 2 it is an area where they clearly define a subset of the people as in a militia. They do not see the need to define such subsets in other rights. The second amendment stands in reference to a militia which has later been interpreted by the courts to mean well trained individuals, yet there is not any real training at all. but if you want to really get all constitutional you should really have to join the state's militia in order to get your rights to own a gun as those rights were necessary for the formation of those militias.

That is if you actually want to debate said issue on those semantic levels.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
skipping down a bit...
Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
skipping down some more...
Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
skipping down some more...
Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

And finally, well over halfway down the list...

USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.

And how many of those countries are considering war deaths as homicides? Seriously US lifestyle has very little in common with those countries. Why not quote countries we are similar ot like european countries, or australia, or canada, or perhaps japan. Those are statistics where armed conflicts have boosted the number of killings and those rates of private gun ownership are just those who volunteer their gun registration. As a matter of fact the very way we are listed near those countries instead of closer to more industrialized nations like england, france, germany, japan, and other countries like that shows that we are hanging out in the areas where easy gun ownership tends to put a country. in countries where gun ownership is hard these things seem to happen less and less. let us list some of the countries we should be competing with on violence instead of looking at third world countries that can barely police themselves.

Oh wait now that I go to use your proof against you i notice something. You used a homicide rate, not a gun killing rate. For all we know some of those people were hacked up with machetes. you did not even use the data on gun deaths. Why is that?

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Of course though, when it comes to factors involved in murder, the possession or not of a gun plays a very small part. The use of it in an argument on gun control is fairly meaningless. Socio-economic factors play a far greater role.


Which means that there's nearly a hundred countries with a lower murder rate.

the use of a murder rate is irrelevant when there is data on gunshot fatalities. Let us look those up.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh, when we look at firearm death rate we see a bunch of countries with bans on firearm ownership at the bottom, and the US is right up there on top with countries that are at war. So I guess gun bans do lower the deaths by firearms when well enforced like the US would be able to do.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

the use of a murder rate is irrelevant when there is data on gunshot fatalities. Let us look those up.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh, when we look at firearm death rate we see a bunch of countries with bans on firearm ownership at the bottom, and the US is right up there on top with countries that are at war. So I guess gun bans do lower the deaths by firearms when well enforced like the US would be able to do.

Yes, but there's no evidence gun bans lower the murder rate. So all it means is that people who would otherwise get shot will now be killed by knives or baseball bats, or by illegal firearms.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Looking at the rate of deaths by guns in that list it seems we are right up there with latin america in the US killing rate. It is safer to live in South africa or kuwait than to live in america. Isreal has a lower gun death rate than we do, and that is by a lot. We are ten times worse than Isreal. look at all those countries down at the bottom that have fun control and have less than one person in 100 thousand people killed per year by guns. Most of europe is there. Taiwan is there. Japan is there. those are the countries we should be competing with, but yet america is up there with the latin american drug cartel owned countries.

i think the evidence is pretty damned solid that with a industrialized society banning guns reduces deaths

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Yes, but there's no evidence gun bans lower the murder rate. So all it means is that people who would otherwise get shot will now be killed by knives or baseball bats, or by illegal firearms.

Ok, let us compare his homicide chart to my gun death chart.

Oh look, we have low homicide rates in europe. The only place that beats us is friggen africa. yet we see massively smaller murder rates in asia and europe. We are 5 times more homicidal than they are. So yes why don't we compare those numbers because they look like they say gun bans lower homicides and deaths.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Actually, if you read amendment 2 it is an area where they clearly define a subset of the people as in a militia. They do not see the need to define such subsets in other rights. The second amendment stands in reference to a militia which has later been interpreted by the courts to mean well trained individuals, yet there is not any real training at all. but if you want to really get all constitutional you should really have to join the state's militia in order to get your rights to own a gun as those rights were necessary for the formation of those militias.

That is if you actually want to debate said issue on those semantic levels.

We don't need to join a militia at all since we are already in one. Or were until we got too old.

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

Of course, if you want to get all constitutional, then we need all 17 year old's to have assault rifles and women cannot arm themselves unless they are in the National Guard.

I suppose it's up to interpretation, but it would stand to reason that with longer lifespans, the modern US militia would be expanded to older than 45 and since women now have an expanded role in the military, they would also be included in the US militia.

In any case, the part that says "Right of the People" confers an individual right in every other part of the constitution, so we have no reason to believe it means something different in the 2nd amendment.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

why do people whose motivations for gun bans has nothing to do with crime control constantly talk about the crime rates of other countries. Its obvious that most of the gun haters on this board hate honest gun owners: indeed many of them identify with or at least make excuses for many of those who commit crimes with weapons

 

[American]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes

According to the NRA chief LaPierre Isreal had problems with school shootings and enacted laws to prevent that action. Yes, it is true isreal seems to have far less school shootings by deranged gunmen, they also have restrictive gun ownership laws. Records from isreal show only a couple of school shootings which mostly fall under terrorism and failed hostage taking. Isreal said the types of shootings the US has do not have the same reasons behind them as Isreali school shootings.

However, Isreal does seem to be safer in the areas of crazies from their own ranks killing their children. Perhaps it is because of their gun laws. First all eople have to apply for the permission to own a gun. that application involves intense screening and training in the use of those firearms. They also have to undergo the training and medical screening every 3 years and there is no guarantee they will get their permit renewed. People have to apply for permits for each weapon they want to purchase, and it is rare a person is permitted to have more than one weapon. People applying for permits have to show a need for the weapon which involves living or working in dangerous areas of conflict in their country. Isreal says they deny about 80 percent of their permit requests. They also require that gun owners to waive their right to confidentiality while owning guns.

maybe the cheif of the NRA is onto something considering Isreal is a place where lots of armed conflict happens, and terrorism is all around them, but yet their schools remain relatively safe to gun violence? Maybe we should start looking at some of their policies like restricting gun ownership to need, forced medical and police screening on every gun purchase, not allowing private sales to circumvent those checks, and removing the confidentiality rights of those who wish to posses guns. If that system helps to protect isreal against random gun violence, then it should certainly protect the US considering we do not have a bunch of countries who violently hate us connected to us like they do.

Is it just a coincidence that a country with the least gun controls also sees some of the most violent episodes of gun violence happen far more often than other countries with stricter gun controls and bannings? Perhaps it is time for the anti-gun restriction people to start quantifying the protections and added safety they supposedly provide with some real numbers because it seems there are real numbers to support the idea that gin banning do drastically reduce the number of violent gun incidents.

Perhaps you could provide sources.

 

[YoungConserv]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Actually, if you read amendment 2 it is an area where they clearly define a subset of the people as in a militia. They do not see the need to define such subsets in other rights. The second amendment stands in reference to a militia which has later been interpreted by the courts to mean well trained individuals, yet there is not any real training at all. but if you want to really get all constitutional you should really have to join the state's militia in order to get your rights to own a gun as those rights were necessary for the formation of those militias.

That is if you actually want to debate said issue on those semantic levels.

There is a comma in the middle of the second showing a clear break in ideas making ownership independent of being in a militia.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

We don't need to join a militia at all since we are already in one. Or were until we got too old.

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute

Of course, if you want to get all constitutional, then we need all 17 year old's to have assault rifles and women cannot arm themselves unless they are in the National Guard.

I suppose it's up to interpretation, but it would stand to reason that with longer lifespans, the modern US militia would be expanded to older than 45 and since women now have an expanded role in the military, they would also be included in the US militia.

In any case, the part that says "Right of the People" confers an individual right in every other part of the constitution, so we have no reason to believe it means something different in the 2nd amendment.

I like you.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes

Perhaps you could provide sources.

No problem.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes

The bottom line is that there is no model for a country with ownership of nearly 300 million firearms suddenly reversing that.

I notice that the UK is always compared to the US, but the UK has always had a much lower gun crime rate than the US, and no one ever thinks to compare the UK to itself before the 1997 gun ban

Beginning in 1997 new laws were enacted which become more and more restrictive. 95% of all handguns were banned and the remainder (.22 caliber) had to be stored at gun clubs. Several months later a total ban on handguns was passed along with a buy back, which netted more than 100,000 handguns from the homes of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

Guess what? Within 4 years, gun crime had doubled!!

alphapatriot.com , Archive » Crime in Britain Part 1: Dunblane, Gun Laws and Violence

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

There is a comma in the middle of the second showing a clear break in ideas making ownership independent of being in a militia.

Then why put it in there? At the very least it does say training should be there.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

I like you.

LOL, I like you too.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes

The bottom line is that there is no model for a country with ownership of nearly 300 million firearms suddenly reversing that.

I notice that the UK is always compared to the US, but the UK has always had a much lower gun crime rate than the US, and no one ever thinks to compare the UK to itself before the 1997 gun ban

Beginning in 1997 new laws were enacted which become more and more restrictive. 95% of all handguns were banned and the remainder (.22 caliber) had to be stored at gun clubs. Several months later a total ban on handguns was passed along with a buy back, which netted more than 100,000 handguns from the homes of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

Guess what? Within 4 years, gun crime had doubled!!

alphapatriot.com , Archive » Crime in Britain Part 1: Dunblane, Gun Laws and Violence

Ok, but you did just dismiss the comparison right before using it yourself. If you can say there is no model for it then there is no model for it. I would also like to note that you made something new a crime so you did put a lot of people on the criminal side of the law which will increase crime. Yes, I admit that if bans were enacted there would be an increase in crime in the US.

 

[Thrilla]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

We don't need to join a militia at all since we are already in one. Or were until we got too old.

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute

Of course, if you want to get all constitutional, then we need all 17 year old's to have assault rifles and women cannot arm themselves unless they are in the National Guard.

I suppose it's up to interpretation, but it would stand to reason that with longer lifespans, the modern US militia would be expanded to older than 45 and since women now have an expanded role in the military, they would also be included in the US militia.

In any case, the part that says "Right of the People" confers an individual right in every other part of the constitution, so we have no reason to believe it means something different in the 2nd amendment.

I wonder if the folks who run with the "militia" interpretation of the 2nd understand that very interpretation would only allow us to ban firearms from women (of any age, who are not members of the national guard) and old men?

doesn't really matter... that interpretation is legally dead.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Perhaps the term militia is important as it would force people to muster and prepare and keep a pro-active hold on their weapons. this would also allow the people in the militia to get to know who is around with guns and be aware of their circumstances to more precisely handle the situation.