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Now It’s Panama’s Turn In the Barrel

LOL!!

After four years of that puppet spouting off someone else's words...badly...you now want to talk about Trump's words??

This is the height of hypocrisy, dude.

There is a new puppet coming into office. Billionaire globalists are the puppeteers in. Trump will dance for them. He will speak like them.
 
There is a new puppet coming into office. Billionaire globalists are the puppeteers in. Trump will dance for them. He will speak like them.
So now the billionaire globalists are under the GOP tent currying favor with the leader instead of on the outside looking in..
How will we ever survive such a close-working relationship between donors and working partners?
 
He is setting US foreign policy back 100 years.

I think the die was cast a while ago, and China has had a lot to do with it. We can certainly question the wisdom of MAGA's combative, antagonistic foreign policy, but it's not in a vacuum. Xi made the decision to assert Chinese power in a far more direct manner than any of his predecessors.
 
What a prick.

If this were to happen, you can strike another country off the map where I could retire as an American without being hated.
 
Finally the source of the beef. Illegals are coming across the Panama Canal!



The Guatemalans, Costa Ricans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans and Mexicans are going the wrong way!
 
Finally the source of the beef. Illegals are coming across the Panama Canal!



The Guatemalans, Costa Ricans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans and Mexicans are going the wrong way!


He's serious about this, but he's also taking a more confrontational approach about the growing Chinese footprint in the Americas, particularly as it relates to trade and access to critical natural resources. Of course this is something that could backfire, considering there's a long history of US intervention.
 
So now he's whinging about fees and it falling into the wrong hands, which are whose exactly?
The DictatorTyrants in Beijing that's who.


During my 10 years living and working in the CCP-PRC (until 2022) I was taken to meet so many CCP members who with their families were learning Spanish. All of 'em were on the CCP's assignment to take their families to Panama to become permanent residents then citizens of Panama.

The CCP goal from Beijing is to have its steady stream of CCP operatives and their families into Panama to become Panamanian in every aspect of life in the society, economy, government. To take control of the Panama Canal without firing a shot. This is a long view plan the CCP in Beijing began in the 1990s.

Presently there are 200,000 Chinese living and working in Panama among its measly 4.3m population. With CCP money and influence these CCP Chinese are very welcome. In fact in 2017 Panama changed its diplomatic recognition to Beijing and got out from Taiwan. This was Panama flipping the finger at the United States.


From the link....

As far back as the 1990s, China had begun positioning itself at either end of the Panama Canal by winning contracts to establish container ports run by Chinese state-owned companies. Recently, China has strengthened its presence in the country by beginning construction of a fourth, $1.42 billion bridge over the canal. Funded by BRI, the work is being done by Chinese state-owned companies. A recent report from the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies noted, “China is not only exporting steel and concrete [through BRI projects], but also corruption, opacity, and waste. These features are not incidental side effects of working in countries where graft is already endemic, but rather an upside for China.”


The US Southern Command modest military force of some Army, a few Marines, hardly any Navy and some Air Force is too little and too late to have prevented the CCP from verging on control of the Panama Canal. It will take a much larger and stronger USA diplomatic and military presence to neutralize the CCP in Central and South America which is the Area of Responsibility of the Command that has scared nobody.
 
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The DictatorTyrants in Beijing that's who.


During my 10 years living and working in the CCP-PRC (until 2022) I was taken to meet so many CCP members who with their families were learning Spanish. All of 'em were on the CCP's assignment to take their families to Panama to become permanent residents then citizens of Panama.

The CCP goal from Beijing is to have its steady stream of CCP operatives and their families into Panama to become Panamanian in every aspect of life in the society, economy, government. To take control of the Panama Canal without firing a shot. This is a long view plan the CCP in Beijing began in the 1990s.

Presently there are 200,000 Chinese living and working in Panama among its measly 4.3m population. With CCP money and influence these CCP Chinese are very welcome. In fact in 2017 Panama changed its diplomatic recognition to Beijing and got out from Taiwan. this was flipping the finger at the United States.


From the link....

As far back as the 1990s, China had begun positioning itself at either end of the Panama Canal by winning contracts to establish container ports run by Chinese state-owned companies. Recently, China has strengthened its presence in the country by beginning construction of a fourth, $1.42 billion bridge over the canal. Funded by BRI, the work is being done by Chinese state-owned companies. A recent report from the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies noted, “China is not only exporting steel and concrete [through BRI projects], but also corruption, opacity, and waste. These features are not incidental side effects of working in countries where graft is already endemic, but rather an upside for China.”


The US Southern Command modest military force of some Army, a few Marines, hardly any Navy and some Air Force is too little and too late to have prevented the CCP from verging on control of the Panama Canal. It will take a much larger and stronger USA diplomatic and military presence to neutralize the CCP in Central and South America which is the Area of Responsibility of the Command that has scared nobody.
So essentially what China has been doing throughout most of Latin America and Africa.
:)
 
The DictatorTyrants in Beijing that's who.


During my 10 years living and working in the CCP-PRC (until 2022) I was taken to meet so many CCP members who with their families were learning Spanish. All of 'em were on the CCP's assignment to take their families to Panama to become permanent residents then citizens of Panama.

The CCP goal from Beijing is to have its steady stream of CCP operatives and their families into Panama to become Panamanian in every aspect of life in the society, economy, government. To take control of the Panama Canal without firing a shot. This is a long view plan the CCP in Beijing began in the 1990s.

Presently there are 200,000 Chinese living and working in Panama among its measly 4.3m population. With CCP money and influence these CCP Chinese are very welcome. In fact in 2017 Panama changed its diplomatic recognition to Beijing and got out from Taiwan. this was flipping the finger at the United States.


From the link....

As far back as the 1990s, China had begun positioning itself at either end of the Panama Canal by winning contracts to establish container ports run by Chinese state-owned companies. Recently, China has strengthened its presence in the country by beginning construction of a fourth, $1.42 billion bridge over the canal. Funded by BRI, the work is being done by Chinese state-owned companies. A recent report from the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies noted, “China is not only exporting steel and concrete [through BRI projects], but also corruption, opacity, and waste. These features are not incidental side effects of working in countries where graft is already endemic, but rather an upside for China.”


The US Southern Command modest military force of some Army, a few Marines, hardly any Navy and some Air Force is too little and too late to have prevented the CCP from verging on control of the Panama Canal. It will take a much larger and stronger USA diplomatic and military presence to neutralize the CCP in Central and South America which is the Area of Responsibility of the Command that has scared nobody.
So...there IS a method to Trump's "madness" and it's all about national security.

Sounds good to me.
 
So...there IS a method to Trump's "madness" and it's all about national security.

Sounds good to me.
Not really, because if the canal were his real concern he'd be more interested in what's the direct threat right now, which is the continual drought that's making its viability more at risk. The canal isn't at risk from China, and if you think that's the case then most of the developing world and its resources are.
 
So...there IS a method to Trump's "madness" and it's all about national security.

Sounds good to me.

So what is Trump planning to do? A Granada type operation where he has soldiers parachute into the control stations on either side of the canal and oust the Chinese so that Americans could take control? Would you support that?
 
So...there IS a method to Trump's "madness" and it's all about national security.

Sounds good to me.
Trump has bungled Panama as much as any president before him has done.


0.04.jpg

Crew members of a Chinese container ship wave Chinese and Panamanian flags during an official visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Panama in December 2018. Luis Acosta/AFP/Getty Images


The US did not have an ambassador to Panama from 2018 to 2022 during which vacuum the CCP Panamanians ran amok throughout the country because no US diplomatic presence was there to check 'em. Ambassador to Panama is unclear at this point as it seems not to be a Trump priority now either.

Then there was when Trump tried to hack the State Department budget by a third until Congress stopped him.


From the link I posted in scrolling....

“Domestic politics in the U.S. is undermining U.S. national interests throughout the world,” warned Samuel Lewis Navarro, a former first vice president and foreign minister of Panama. I must add that domestic turmoil in the USA is by Putin-MAGAs-Trump who from 2015 have thrown themselves into "tearing it all down."


It's good to see Trump getting fact slapped about Panama which played a role in his choosing Marco Rubio as SecState. Rubio is on this case as much as Rubio is on Cuba's case in Latin and South America. It will be interesting to hear Congress and Rubio interact on Panama during his confirmation hearings early next year in January.

Now what the US needs is a SecDef who's not obsessed against Muslims, DEI, American liberals and to court martial American generals as Hegseth is and who unlike Hegseth doesn't fall into a bottle of Tequela each day and night while he's equal opportunity grabbing women of any nationality.

The Panama Canal is a serious business that isn't in the sands and the sheikdoms of the ME. Hegseth's only experience of south of the US border would in Tiajuana. Myself I think Trump is in this Panama thing for the money and not much else except to aggravate Xi in Beijing. Indeed, Trump is only and always about what's in it for me.
 
So what is Trump planning to do?
Don't know. Wait and see.

A Granada type operation where he has soldiers parachute into the control stations on either side of the canal and oust the Chinese so that Americans could take control?
That's not his style.

Would you support that?
No, at least not while there are other ways to deal with the situation.

Anyway, if you come up with any more wild, unrealistic scenarios...don't bother me with them.
 
So essentially what China has been doing throughout most of Latin America and Africa.
:)

Yes, except instead of pretending that the neoliberal world order is going to work things out, because after all we never went to war with a country that has a McDonald's :rolleyes:, this administration is signaling we're not going to tolerate another world power having even anything close to equal influence in the Western Hemisphere. We're putting China on notice, and we're putting Latin America on notice as well. If we're smart, we'll bring some carrots with us and not merely rely on Teddy Roosevelt's big stick. As it stands now, that big stick is not prepared to produce the kinds of weaponry fast enough to engage in regular stick-waving, which is going to be another priority of MAGA 2.0.

Now, taking the above into consideration, let's apply this to the war in Ukraine. If we can fully acknowledge our own historical policy in dealing with Lat-Am nations, and if we're so scared of China's growing influence in our backyard, then maybe we can begin to empathize with Vladimir Putin's Russia when they see the growing influence of the United States when he looks out their own back window. I have no doubt - zero - that if we ever reached the point of believing that China's influence anywhere in the Western Hemisphere was becoming too great, we would exact consequences for China *and* for any nation that's deemed to be cooperating with them. There's just too much history to say otherwise. That doesn't make Russia's invasion any less illegal or barbaric, but realpolitik has always been a thing long before it became a fashionable term in political science circles.

Smart diplomacy necessarily means having the ability to empathize with your enemy, even if you don't agree with them. Failing to understand their point of view as they see it inevitably leads to provincialism and cultural chauvinism...and deluded foreign policies that leads to disastrous, irreversible foreign policy errors. If China is smart, they'll proceed more cautiously. If they're not, and if they think they're ready for a real confrontation, then they won't, and we'll likely fight a proxy war or two over it. If they're lucky, the clash is quick and it's a simple regime change. If not, then it's possible that whatever nation dares to befriend China gets left in ruins, making them an example for others to see.
 
Not really, because if the canal were his real concern he'd be more interested in what's the direct threat right now, which is the continual drought that's making its viability more at risk. The canal isn't at risk from China, and if you think that's the case then most of the developing world and its resources are.
This has joined the list of famous last words from the instant you typed it out.
 
I think the die was cast a while ago, and China has had a lot to do with it. We can certainly question the wisdom of MAGA's combative, antagonistic foreign policy, but it's not in a vacuum. Xi made the decision to assert Chinese power in a far more direct manner than any of his predecessors.
Yes, it is all military power which we should match.
Not to mention space and cyber capabilities.
 
Makes me hope Trump is out of the picture before the Northwest Passage becomes a viable route between Asia and Europe.
If the Northwest Passage becomes a viable route for commerce in the 21st century, are you going to blame Trump because he quit the useless Paris Climate Accord?
 
If the Northwest Passage becomes a viable route for commerce in the 21st century, are you going to blame Trump because he quit the useless Paris Climate Accord?
What? What the hell are you on about?
 
Yes, it is all military power which we should match.
Not to mention space and cyber capabilities.

I think both China and the US should realize that diplomacy's cheaper than conflict. I doubt either side will get it or relent. Both the US and China are pretty well steeped in their own bullshit cultural/political mythologies.
 
This has joined the list of famous last words from the instant you typed it out.
Maybe, Maybe not. However, if we're thinking about the threat from China in the context of their efforts in the developing world for the past couple of decades, then there's more than just the Panama Canal to be worried about. We're talking about access to resources in the aforementioned region, as well as business partnerships and investments that have given China a pretty good footing throughout the world.

What will be an interesting needle to thread is determining the kind of threat China poses, since they're using a market based model to establish footholds versus any kind of military set ups that would be clear red flags if they started to assert themselves this way. I have no doubt at all China is looking to compete directly with the US across the world and dominate economically at some point, the question for the incoming administration is whether they're interested in the kind of global expansion required to do so. China's used soft power to expand, which means the US would have to counter accordingly to gain back the traction it once had. The incoming administration seems more intent on punishing rather than competing, which I suspect will be more beneficial to China than the US.
 
Yes, except instead of pretending that the neoliberal world order is going to work things out, because after all we never went to war with a country that has a McDonald's :rolleyes:, this administration is signaling we're not going to tolerate another world power having even anything close to equal influence in the Western Hemisphere. We're putting China on notice, and we're putting Latin America on notice as well. If we're smart, we'll bring some carrots with us and not merely rely on Teddy Roosevelt's big stick. As it stands now, that big stick is not prepared to produce the kinds of weaponry fast enough to engage in regular stick-waving, which is going to be another priority of MAGA 2.0.
As I mentioned in my response to @Tangmo, the challenge for the US is how to respond effectively given China's narrative throughout the developing world is one that features them as investors and developers compared to the US being an exploiter and extractor. The Chinese have not expanded military bases in host countries or been involved with coup d'etats that I know of. That's the pitch and it's been effective compared to the long history of the US to the contrary.

The "big stick" approach you're mentioning only furthers the Chinese argument, since their has been a market expansion without the use of our old gunboat diplomacy that so often marked our dealings with many of our Latin American neighbors. The new administration will have to figure out whether it wants to take an interventionist approach, which doesn't seem to be on brand and can be very problematic.

Now, taking the above into consideration, let's apply this to the war in Ukraine. If we can fully acknowledge our own historical policy in dealing with Lat-Am nations, and if we're so scared of China's growing influence in our backyard, then maybe we can begin to empathize with Vladimir Putin's Russia when they see the growing influence of the United States when he looks out their own back window. I have no doubt - zero - that if we ever reached the point of believing that China's influence anywhere in the Western Hemisphere was becoming too great, we would exact consequences for China *and* for any nation that's deemed to be cooperating with them. There's just too much history to say otherwise. That doesn't make Russia's invasion any less illegal or barbaric, but realpolitik has always been a thing long before it became a fashionable term in political science circles.
This is a fair point, and I for one do take Russia's concerns into consideration. The problem with Russia is it hasn't made it easy for itself as being a good neighbor either. The reality for Russia is it will forever have western aligned nations at its doorstep; something it just recently increased by the inclusion of Finland and Sweden into NATO as a direct result of his Ukraine invasion.

Smart diplomacy necessarily means having the ability to empathize with your enemy, even if you don't agree with them. Failing to understand their point of view as they see it inevitably leads to provincialism and cultural chauvinism...and deluded foreign policies that leads to disastrous, irreversible foreign policy errors. If China is smart, they'll proceed more cautiously. If they're not, and if they think they're ready for a real confrontation, then they won't, and we'll likely fight a proxy war or two over it. If they're lucky, the clash is quick and it's a simple regime change. If not, then it's possible that whatever nation dares to befriend China gets left in ruins, making them an example for others to see.
I think they've been doing just that. By expanding their influence through the markets, they have been able to secure resources for themselves using the very same methodology as western nations do. It makes it hard to argue that China shouldn't be able to expand the way the US has for decades. I am curious to see how all of this works out, because fighting off the efforts for a multi polar world won't be easy.
 
Eighty percent of Panamanians have a "positive" view of the USA while it's half that for the CCP-PRC that has poured billions of bucks into the economy while Washington has ignored the whole of it.

In May voters elected the conservative party and solidly pro American former foreign minister as president, a guy named Jose Raul Mulino who says Panama is a "strategic partner" with the US. Mulino won by 10 points over the Beijing supported bad guy. Since May Mulino's new foreign minister whatshisname has traveled to Washington four times, including in July for a "strategic meeting" with SecState Blinken.

Mulino just may act agreeably and voluntarily to return the canal to US possession, protection, control. Mulino may also return Panamanian recognition of Taiwan and kick Xi to the curb. If Mulino goes this route he'd have to overcome parliament that came out of the May election looking like the US House looks for the next two years. Mulino may be counting on popular support for the US to return to Panama to get middling parties votes in parliament for these issues. After all Panama is just another country famous for its open wallets.

Now it's Beijing that stands to lose a lot and Trump knows this. Trump's tough talk about his "demand" to get the canal back appears to be just a part of Trump's usual bluster about things and matters that are foreign. What's also big about this is that Panama under Mulino is open to the US for investment. And that Panama can be a model to other countries of the region where the CCP is making big plays.
 
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