Non-separation of church and State.

[EMNofSeattle]

Not according to the Framers because there is nothing to support your claim that the US was created as a protestant Christian state. The US was created as a secular state with equal religious freedom for the citizens, regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof. You might want to put down your bible and study the words of Jefferson and Madison.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

www.loc.gov

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/11/how-thomas-jefferson-and-other-founding-fathers-defended-muslim-rights/

Founders Online: Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, [ca. …

Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, [ca. 20 June] 1785

founders.archives.gov

You can believe what you want and worship the god that you wish the government at all levels and the expenditure of our tax dollars is not to support one religion or sect over the other or support belief over non-belief. Your religious rights and at the tip of your nose where the equal religious and secualr rights of everyone else begin.

It’s amazing that you are willing to do so much work to respond to a claim I didn’t make. Put this much effort into comprehension

 

[Hamish Howl]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

Okay, but I get to pick the religion.

 

[Juks]

Iran is not a “church” state. You clearly do not know what “church” even means

As far as Christian states, England, Norway, Malta, and Costa Rica all have churches designated as the state church.

Yes they have State churches but the state and the church are seperated powers...

I used the word "church" just to simplify and as a "the house of worship". Off course I know it is mosques in Iran.

 

[weaver2]

Okay, but I get to pick the religion.

OK I'll let you pick the religion but I get to pick the priests.......... muahaha ......... I pick the priests.

 

[ataraxia]

They needed support from a variety of different sects, hence the nuetrality re govt. legal systems and the like, that's why; they didn't care about Buddhists, Hindus, or Muslims then, since almost none of them were around enough to matter, hence why there was no need to state the blatantly obvious, that the country was going to be largely Christian, but neutral re the individual sects. You find a much different story in the individual states.

Nope, try again.

“Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.' The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan (Muslim), the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.”
- Thomas Jefferson, on the Virginia Resolution for religious freedom

 

[ataraxia]

“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? "
-James Madison

 

[Peter]

The Queen doesn't get involved in politics.
The UK is very much secular and has been for generations and again I'd like the input of any Americans who've lived here to see what they think.

The Church of England may be main religion but it doesn't get involved in politics in the same way religions seem to in the US.
It's just very different.

 

[Closer]

It’s amazing that you are willing to do so much work to respond to a claim I didn’t make. Put this much effort into comprehension

She's not the only one who gets confused by her own strawmen. So far none have refuted anything, they just keep dropping Jefferson's name over and over, as if he was some sort of absolute dictator making proclamations into laws or something. They still won't admit that the clause only applied to the Federal govt and not the state govts., for instance; they have no real clue they just have an agenda to stick to no matter what.

 

[Closer]

“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? "
-James Madison

Again he was referring to the denying the Federal Govt. the power to establish a national sect; no where does he propose that the clause applied to the individual state govts.

 

[Closer]

Nope, try again.

“Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.' The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan (Muslim), the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.”
- Thomas Jefferson, on the Virginia Resolution for religious freedom

That is just Jefferson's opinion; Jefferson didn't make laws, he merely made speeches, and there are all those other Founders who vastly outnumber Jefferson, who wasn't at the Constitutional Convention at all. What year was that Resolution published in, again?

 

[Glitch]

The Founders are not the Government that they created.

Except that they were. All the Founding Fathers of the nation served in the government they created. From serving as Governors of new States, to being members of the new Congress or cabinet members of the Executive Branch, to being the first five Presidents.

The are called "Founding Fathers" collectively because they all served in the very government they created.

Thomas Paine, while playing a significant role in the American Revolution, is not considered a "Founding Father" because he played no role in creating what became the US and never served in the new government.

 

[Bodi]

Except that they were. All the Founding Fathers of the nation served in the government they created. From serving as Governors of new States, to being members of the new Congress or cabinet members of the Executive Branch, to being the first five Presidents.

The are called "Founding Fathers" collectively because they all served in the very government they created.

Thomas Paine, while playing a significant role in the American Revolution, is not considered a "Founding Father" because he played no role in creating what became the US and never served in the new government.

Except they weren't. The Founding Fathers served on the Government but the Government is not a reflection of who they are as people... but a reflection of the Government that they created based off of principles from the Enlightenment (writers such as Hobbes, Locke, Voltaire and Montesquieu) and and past government entities such as the Romans and Greeks and documents such as the Magna Charta, the English Bill of Rights and English Common Law.

 

[Glitch]

That is just Jefferson's opinion; Jefferson didn't make laws, he merely made speeches, and there are all those other Founders who vastly outnumber Jefferson, who wasn't at the Constitutional Convention at all. What year was that Resolution published in, again?

The Treaty of Tripoli was ratified by President John Adams June 10, 1797, after the Senate gave their approval and consent for the treaty on June 7, 1797.

According to Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli - which is the supreme law of the land - states:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The Treaty of Tripoli makes it very clear that the US was never - in any sense - founded on the Christian Religion, and that is in fact the law of the land and has been for 224 years.

 

[Glitch]

Except they weren't. The Founding Fathers served on the Government but the Government is not a reflection of who they are as people... but a reflection of the Government that they created based off of principles from the Enlightenment (writers such as Hobbes, Locke, Voltaire and Montesquieu) and and past government entities such as the Romans and Greeks and documents such as the Magna Charta, the English Bill of Rights and English Common Law.

The government was very much a reflection of who the founders were, as people. The current government includes many of the things the founders did, that had nothing to do with centuries old philosophers. Yes, they drew upon what they knew to create the government, but then they shaped it with their own personalities.

The Whiskey Rebellion from 1791 until 1794 is when George Washington personally raised 1,500 militia members to put down the rebellion in Pennsylvania. Those militia members were under George Washington's command, as the President and Commander-in-Chief, but they were working on behalf of the Treasury Department because the rebellion was over the newly instituted national tax on alcohol. They became the very first federal law enforcement agency, and today they are known as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, still under the Department of the Treasury, not the Department of Justice.

That is but one example of the influence the personalities of the founders had on the nation, there are many others. Such as Hamilton's influence on the Department of Treasury and the National Bank, which none of those centuries-old philosophers had conceived. Even James Monroe's Signing Statements (which are not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution) are still being used by Presidents to this day.

The personalities of the founders can be found throughout the government of the US.

 

[Bodi]

The government was very much a reflection of who the founders were, as people. The current government includes many of the things the founders did, that had nothing to do with centuries old philosophers. Yes, they drew upon what they knew to create the government, but then they shaped it with their own personalities.

The Whiskey Rebellion from 1791 until 1794 is when George Washington personally raised 1,500 militia members to put down the rebellion in Pennsylvania. Those militia members were under George Washington's command, as the President and Commander-in-Chief, but they were working on behalf of the Treasury Department because the rebellion was over the newly instituted national tax on alcohol. They became the very first federal law enforcement agency, and today they are known as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, still under the Department of the Treasury, not the Department of Justice.

That is but one example of the influence the personalities of the founders had on the nation, there are many others. Such as Hamilton's influence on the Department of Treasury and the National Bank, which none of those centuries-old philosophers had conceived. Even James Monroe's Signing Statements (which are not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution) are still being used by Presidents to this day.

The personalities of the founders can be found throughout the government of the US.

You are drifting further and further from my original argument.

 

[ataraxia]

That is just Jefferson's opinion; Jefferson didn't make laws, he merely made speeches, and there are all those other Founders who vastly outnumber Jefferson, who wasn't at the Constitutional Convention at all. What year was that Resolution published in, again?

he is recounting what the legislators of the state of Virginia believed about their government and its separation from religious powers.

 

[ataraxia]

Again he was referring to the denying the Federal Govt. the power to establish a national sect; no where does he propose that the clause applied to the individual state govts.

Madison was talking about the federal government, Jefferson was talking about the body of legislators state of Virginia. You really have to torture this time to come home saying that the founders believed what you thought they believed.

 

[Closer]

The Treaty of Tripoli was ratified by President John Adams June 10, 1797, after the Senate gave their approval and consent for the treaty on June 7, 1797.

According to Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution:


Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli - which is the supreme law of the land - states:


The Treaty of Tripoli makes it very clear that the US was never - in any sense - founded on the Christian Religion, and that is in fact the law of the land and has been for 224 years.

I didn't realize an 1803 Treaty suddenly becomes relevant to the Constitutional Convention in 1789. Thanks for that little known fact. Again your cite is merely Jefferson's opinion, and disregards the rest of the the people in the United States,who also had opinions, ones that differ from your agenda, which is why you never cite them.

 

[Closer]

he is recounting what the legislators of the state of Virginia believed about their government and its separation from religious powers.

He was reciting what he was trying to sell.

 

[Closer]

Except they weren't. The Founding Fathers served on the Government but the Government is not a reflection of who they are as people... but a reflection of the Government that they created based off of principles from the Enlightenment (writers such as Hobbes, Locke, Voltaire and Montesquieu) and and past government entities such as the Romans and Greeks and documents such as the Magna Charta, the English Bill of Rights and English Common Law.

A lot of Protestant Irish feared the Federalists who make the Anglican Church the national Church; Jefferson was elected VP and then P by that demographic. All the name dropping re Locke and the rest is just political rhetoric; Jefferson's major influence was 'Bolingbrokism', not Enlightenment sophistry, in real life.

 

[weaver2]

Again he was referring to the denying the Federal Govt. the power to establish a national sect; no where does he propose that the clause applied to the individual state govts.

So you think the states can set up a state religion or support a religion that favors the state's economic and social l beliefs. The South let evangelicals and Southern Baptists set up tax exempt church schools to circumvent school integration. They lost that one in the Supreme Court https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/461/574 Bob Jones college vs United States. Bob Jones lost its tax exempt status and that was the last time any state tried segregated church schools again. The state of Massachusetts tried to fund the repairs to an old and historic church. They too lost in court. However the states keep trying to pick out a church they like and give it funding. Some succeed. There's a church in Missouri with a nice new asphalt parking lot paid for out of government funds.

 

[Bodi]

A lot of Protestant Irish feared the Federalists who make the Anglican Church the national Church; Jefferson was elected VP and then P by that demographic. All the name dropping re Locke and the rest is just political rhetoric; Jefferson's major influence was 'Bolingbrokism', not Enlightenment sophistry, in real life.

I talked about the Founding Fathers... you isolated Jefferson. Yes, he/they were influenced by many things, as I brought up initially...

I will go with what I studied and what places like the Smithsonian have to say about it.

Jefferson and other members of the founding generation were deeply influenced by the 18th-century European intellectual movement known as the Enlightenment. Enlightenment philosophy stressed that liberty and equality were natural human rights.

Jefferson and the Enlightenment

www.monticello.org

The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment.

Foundations of American Government [ushistory.org]

www.ushistory.org

This is high school level stuff, man.

 

[Closer]

So you think the states can set up a state religion or support a religion that favors the state's economic and social l beliefs. The South let evangelicals and Southern Baptists set up tax exempt church schools to circumvent school integration. They lost that one in the Supreme Court https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/461/574 Bob Jones college vs United States. Bob Jones lost its tax exempt status and that was the last time any state tried segregated church schools again. The state of Massachusetts tried to fund the repairs to an old and historic church. They too lost in court. However the states keep trying to pick out a church they like and give it funding. Some succeed. There's a church in Missouri with a nice new asphalt parking lot paid for out of government funds.

Rubbish. What referred to is the fact that the establishment clause didn't apply to the state govts, it only applied to to the the Federal govt. Many of the former colonies kept their established sects when they became states. Demographic changes led to their being gradually dis-established, the last being Massachusetts, in 1834 or so, not by any Supreme Court decree.

I could care less about your rant; like the other spammers who keep quoting me and posting rubbish, nothing I said is debatable, it's part of the historical record so quit making fools of yourselves over and over and over again. You should sue whatever school system failed to educate you on the basics.

 

[ataraxia]

He was reciting what he was trying to sell.

He was recounting what the Virginia state legislators almostly unanimously thought and did. It is historical fact.

 

[Closer]

I talked about the Founding Fathers... you isolated Jefferson. Yes, he/they were influenced by many things, as I brought up initially...

I will go with what I studied and what places like the Smithsonian have to say about it.

Jefferson and other members of the founding generation were deeply influenced by the 18th-century European intellectual movement known as the Enlightenment. Enlightenment philosophy stressed that liberty and equality were natural human rights.

Jefferson and the Enlightenment

www.monticello.org

The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment.

Foundations of American Government [ushistory.org]

www.ushistory.org

This is high school level stuff, man.

I 'isolated' Jefferson because some people here seem to think he dictated everything to every American of his day; he didn't. As for his and everybody' else's name dropping when writing their arguments for whatever, they are no more meaningful than modern pols' claims today; they use what ever they had to try and win points. Philosophy was just a parlor game for them; they did not carry over all those high minded thoughts and practice them in their everyday lives.

Forrest McDonald's book on Jefferson, The Presidency Of Thomas Jefferson, goes into details on his real influences, and the fact that he quoted from The Craftsman pamphlets far more than the 'Enlightenment' sophists. Most of the Founders were not 'Deists' or atheists,nor were they slaves to philosophical abstractions, regardless of their political rhetoric. Most states kept the same Houses of govt. they had as colonies, along with the legal systems.