Non-separation of church and State.

[AConcernedCitizen]

View attachment 67299388

Bob is a very stable subgenius.

 

[Fledermaus]

Stop the deflection, either answer or go away!

Answer what?

Where did you get that phrase from?

Who does it refer to?

 

[Highlanders]

Answer what?

Where did you get that phrase from?

Who does it refer to?

Stay on thread, my rubber boned German friend of Zion.

 

[Lursa]

So a wife or husband can refuse sex.

He says no, they cannot refuse and rape is not prosecutable because there's no way to prove it.

Meaning she makes the claim of rape, the man denies it and the Catholic cult chooses to side with the man, every single time. It's her word against his and the cult always sides with the man.

 

[Fledermaus]

Stay on thread, my rubber boned German friend of Zion.

Courageously avoiding the question.

As usual.

 

[Prof_Lunaphiles]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

A republic provides for the possibility. The problem is that the settlement of communities and states was benefited by the plural gathering of labor to build the towns. Improperly deployed racial segregation laws completely deteriorated the option for states to regulate citizenship. The course that the country is experiencing between the two political/economic factions will most likely lead us to reconsider sanctioned segregation laws that will provide for state sanctioned religious organization along with the state sanctioned economic system.

 

[ataraxia]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

Common misconception. From the founding fathers and authors of our Constitution:

"'The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
-John Adams

"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? "
-James Madison

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries...Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"
-James Madison

"It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. "
-James Madison,

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

"Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America...All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish (Muslim), appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Payne

(cont'd on next post)

 

[ataraxia]

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory..., more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” – John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

“It was the general opinion of ancient nations, that the divinity alone was adequate to the important office of giving laws to men... and modern nations, in the consecrations of kings, and in several superstitious chimeras of divine rights in princes and nobles, are nearly unanimous in preserving remnants of it... The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature: and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history... [T]he detail of the formation of the American governments... may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had any interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of heaven... it will for ever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses... Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favour of the rights of mankind.”
[A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States of America, 1787]”
― John Adams, The Political Writings of John Adams

 

[Anarchist100]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

and what about people who don't want to be religious?

 

[MamboDervish]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

Uh .... no. Secular values, it turns out, are far more moral than religious ones. Adopting religious values is one giant leap in the wrong direction.

 

[maquiscat]

Uh .... no. Secular values, it turns out, are far more moral than religious ones. Adopting religious values is one giant leap in the wrong direction.

Since morals are subjective, no one set of values can be any more or less moral than any other, save per an individual's opinion.

 

[weaver2]

No, we were not founded on religion.

That is not to say that many Americans weren't Christians, just that when the Founders and Framers put the Constitution together, they did not want religion as part of the government.

Let me point something out to you. At the time that the Bill of Rights were debated and then added to the Constitution the religious make up of the nation was the following: 99% identified as some form of Christianity, there was a smattering of Jews and then a tiny portion of African tribal religions that came with the slaves with an even more tiny group of slaves that were Muslim.

So, at this point, you are probably going “See! See! America was a Christian nation and we were founded on religion!!” Not so fast. I pointed the religious make-up of America at that time to point another little fact out.

The 1st Amendment does a few things: it guarantees your right to worship and freedom of speech and prevents the government from favoring a religion over others, or the creation of a theocracy or state religion. Right?

So, what religion were they trying to prevent from taking over the government, the religion they feared take away the right of other faiths? Well, there was only religion at the time that could do that...Christianity. And they were justified in their fear when Jefferson received a letter from the Danbury Baptists who wanted him, as president, to use his power against a congregation that outvoted the Baptists constantly in local elections. This is where we get Jefferson's “separation of church and state” policy that is based on the 1st Amendment.

Now, at this point, you may try to bring of the Pilgrims. At which point, I will remind you that not only had they already escaped religious persecution in England by going across the Channel to Amsterdam, where freedom of religion was practiced...but that the Pilgrims left Amsterdam NOT because they were being persecuted, but because their church was dying as members left to join other churches. I would also remind you that England had already been setting up commercial colonies in North America before the Pilgrims got there.

So, no, we were not founded on religion. I could go on about the Deists and the Enlightenment and the Jefferson Bible...but I think you get the point.

Good post. I'd like to add to your reminders: The Pilgrims came to America to establish a religious colony that would tolerate no other religion but their religion. Out of this grim intolerance and undeserved piety comes one hilarious story about the Pilgrims that we have artfully surpassed: Merrymeeting Bay.

 

[weaver2]

The FF wanted every religion to be equal under the law. So you wouldn't have to be a certain state approved religion to hold office, or be a military leader, or even be a school teacher (although Catholics were not welcome in public education in the past). The FF didn't go so far as modern courts; they had no problem with prayer in schools, so long as no one religion had a monopoly. They had no problem with prayer, or religious symbols in public places, so long as it was what the local population was comfortable with.

And for all those reasons, mainly to keep religious organizations non-political, they made religion tax free. Churches aren't supposed, under this doctrine, to make political statements, or favor one candidate over another, or make campaign contributions. They ARE allowed to say, here are our values, vote for the person who best reflects our values. But they cannot directly endorse a particular candidate.

That ship has sailed.

 

[ataraxia]

Since morals are subjective, no one set of values can be any more or less moral than any other, save per an individual's opinion.

No, there are better and worse ways to do things. The results speak for themselves. Some societies have moral systems which allow more happiness, justice, fairness, peace, prosperity, and the achievement of human potential. Others suppress it.

It's like tidying up your room or work desk. There may not be any one perfect way to do it. But there are better and worse ways. It's not THAT relative. Religious people just think that they know the way God wants it done and meant for it to be organized, and anyone trying to suggest any new ideas or ways of doing things should be shut down. It's dangerous to project your own latest opinions or your culture's latest biases to a heaven of immutable and unquestionable certainty like that. It keeps you closed minded and intolerant. That's why religious societies tend to stagnate and never grow, and secular ones always remain growing and dynamic.

 

[MamboDervish]

Since morals are subjective, no one set of values can be any more or less moral than any other, save per an individual's opinion.

Yeah sure - point taken. Slavery, slaughter of innocence, stoning your own children to death, rape, racism, committing genocide - all the things that are sanctioned or, in some cases, even demanded by the god in the bible, are just some people's subjective set of values and no less moral than the current laws of western civilization which outlaw all those things!



How many moons orbit your planet?

 

[Somerville]

Good post. I'd like to add to your reminders: The Pilgrims came to America to establish a religious colony that would tolerate no other religion but their religion. Out of this grim intolerance and undeserved piety comes one hilarious story about the Pilgrims that we have artfully surpassed: Merrymeeting Bay.

Yeah that whole religious freedom thing came about due to the persecution of 'others' by the religions that controlled a colony

The idea that the United States has always been a bastion of religious freedom is reassuring—and utterly at odds with the historical record

From the earliest arrival of Europeans on America’s shores, religion has often been a cudgel, used to discriminate, suppress and even kill the foreign, the “heretic” and the “unbeliever”—including the “heathen” natives already here. Moreover, while it is true that the vast majority of early-generation Americans were Christian, the pitched battles between various Protestant sects and, more explosively, between Protestants and Catholics, present an unavoidable contradiction to the widely held notion that America is a “Christian nation.”

 

[Integrityrespec]

No, we were not founded on religion.

That is not to say that many Americans weren't Christians, just that when the Founders and Framers put the Constitution together, they did not want religion as part of the government.

Let me point something out to you. At the time that the Bill of Rights were debated and then added to the Constitution the religious make up of the nation was the following: 99% identified as some form of Christianity, there was a smattering of Jews and then a tiny portion of African tribal religions that came with the slaves with an even more tiny group of slaves that were Muslim.

So, at this point, you are probably going “See! See! America was a Christian nation and we were founded on religion!!” Not so fast. I pointed the religious make-up of America at that time to point another little fact out.

The 1st Amendment does a few things: it guarantees your right to worship and freedom of speech and prevents the government from favoring a religion over others, or the creation of a theocracy or state religion. Right?

So, what religion were they trying to prevent from taking over the government, the religion they feared take away the right of other faiths? Well, there was only religion at the time that could do that...Christianity. And they were justified in their fear when Jefferson received a letter from the Danbury Baptists who wanted him, as president, to use his power against a congregation that outvoted the Baptists constantly in local elections. This is where we get Jefferson's “separation of church and state” policy that is based on the 1st Amendment.

Now, at this point, you may try to bring of the Pilgrims. At which point, I will remind you that not only had they already escaped religious persecution in England by going across the Channel to Amsterdam, where freedom of religion was practiced...but that the Pilgrims left Amsterdam NOT because they were being persecuted, but because their church was dying as members left to join other churches. I would also remind you that England had already been setting up commercial colonies in North America before the Pilgrims got there.

So, no, we were not founded on religion. I could go on about the Deists and the Enlightenment and the Jefferson Bible...but I think you get the point.

Big difference in being based upon a particular religion and on being strongly influenced by religious principles and concepts. The US is strongly influenced by Christian principles and the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers clearly show that.

 

[Somerville]

Big difference in being based upon a particular religion and on being strongly influenced by religious principles and concepts. The US is strongly influenced by Christian principles and the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers clearly show that.

They do not.

 

[Lursa]

I dont understand the need for a change to "separation of church and state."

No one's religious beliefs are imposed on other Americans ...why should they be?

 

[maquiscat]

No, there are better and worse ways to do things. The results speak for themselves. Some societies have moral systems which allow more happiness, justice, fairness, peace, prosperity, and the achievement of human potential. Others suppress it.

All of those are also subjective values. Even when you have many people agreeing on a subjective value it is still subjective. What is just? Fair? Who determines happiness?

It's like tidying up your room or work desk. There may not be any one perfect way to do it. But there are better and worse ways. It's not THAT relative.

OF course it is relative. What is a better way to organize the desk for you may well be a worse way of organization for me.

Religious people just think that they know the way God wants it done and meant for it to be organized, and anyone trying to suggest any new ideas or ways of doing things should be shut down.

I would agree with this for the fundamental and evangelical types of religious, and I am not limiting that to Christians. Even atheists can get that way.

It's dangerous to project your own latest opinions or your culture's latest biases to a heaven of immutable and unquestionable certainty like that.

Like what?

It keeps you closed minded and intolerant. That's why religious societies tend to stagnate and never grow, and secular ones always remain growing and dynamic.

Again, I would say that this applies to such religious who feel that their religion requires them to force it on others. Maybe it can be said that such are religious within a secular society, maybe not. As long as there is no imposing (as opposed to discussing/preaching) of any one religion, the society can be religious and successful, it just won't be one religion.

 

[maquiscat]

Yeah sure - point taken. Slavery, slaughter of innocence, stoning your own children to death, rape, racism, committing genocide - all the things that are sanctioned or, in some cases, even demanded by the god in the bible, are just some people's subjective set of values and no less moral than the current laws of western civilization which outlaw all those things!



How many moons orbit your planet?

All of those things were considered moral by various people across history. In some cases, they felt it moral to kill those not themselves, but not moral to kill among themselves. We can certainly measure how common any given moral is or how many variations exist of a given moral, but they are still subjective. Legal or illegal also makes no difference. That are some people who feel taxes are immoral, regardless of them being legal. Same sex marriage has been considered moral by many despite being illegal until relatively recently. Any reference to law, especially civil law, as a comparison to morals, is a red herring. The law can reflect the morals of some people, maybe even a majority of people, but that doesn't mean that morals are not subjective. It only means, at best, that more people hold to one moral, or a bunch of close enough morals, than subscribe to other moral of the same topic.

 

[MamboDervish]

All of those things were considered moral by various people across history. In some cases, they felt it moral to kill those not themselves, but not moral to kill among themselves. We can certainly measure how common any given moral is or how many variations exist of a given moral, but they are still subjective. Legal or illegal also makes no difference. That are some people who feel taxes are immoral, regardless of them being legal. Same sex marriage has been considered moral by many despite being illegal until relatively recently. Any reference to law, especially civil law, as a comparison to morals, is a red herring. The law can reflect the morals of some people, maybe even a majority of people, but that doesn't mean that morals are not subjective. It only means, at best, that more people hold to one moral, or a bunch of close enough morals, than subscribe to other moral of the same topic.

OK - point taken. In your opinion, there is no objective morality at all. So you would not view the prevalence of honor killings in some cultures as immoral. It's just a relative thing to you.

 

[maquiscat]

OK - point taken. In your opinion, there is no objective morality at all. So you would not view the prevalence of honor killings in some cultures as immoral. It's just a relative thing to you.

I would view it as immoral, but the fact that they don't view it as immoral is what proves my point.

 

[MamboDervish]

I would view it as immoral, but the fact that they don't view it as immoral is what proves my point.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your position.

 

[weaver2]

Big difference in being based upon a particular religion and on being strongly influenced by religious principles and concepts. The US is strongly influenced by Christian principles and the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers clearly show that.

Our form of government is not influenced by Christian principles. The Constitution and the notes, letters and essays the early founders wrote clearly shows that their sources were Greek political philosophy, Roman political structure and ideals about individual freedom from the Enlightenment period. Our great seal says " E Pluribus Unum" our motto used to be a Roman fascia standing upright and the words United with stand, divided we fall. This comes from an old Greek fable by Aesop. Other symbols and sayings come not from Christian iconography but from Greece and Rome.

There is no way that the structure, philosophy or symbols of our government could be based on Christianity because other than temple governance there is nothing about structuring a government in Jesus's teachings or in the Bible.