Nevada Enacts Universal School Choice!

[Thrilla]

What this voucher program does to special education students is disgusting.

how so?..

 

[Thrilla]

It seems designed to erode political support for public schools by drawing middle class and wealthy students into private schools leaving the poor and the disabled behind.

:lol:... that's one way to spin it into being evil.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

say what?...they get "appropriate services" the same way they do today....why wouldn't they?

nobody is forcing anyone into private school.. or forcing them to leave public schools....or anything of the sort.

No, IDEA is a guarantee under public schools and not private. The Nevada program expects children with disabilities to cover their full costs of services with 5700 which doesn't get much.

 

[Thrilla]

No, IDEA is a guarantee under public schools and not private. The Nevada program expects children with disabilities to cover their full costs of services with 5700 which doesn't get much.

are you under the impression special need skids are being forced out of public school or something?.. Nevada doesn't expect anything other than the parents to choose what they find is best for their kid.... you know, like every other human in the ****ing country does.

special needs get a better deal in public school?.. awesome.. stay in public school and get that better deal.
if a parents says " screw it, the kid will be better off being home schooled .." the state say.. "ok.. here's 6 grand to use"

Nevada can't do anything about IDEA funding, that's federal program... this program here deals with state level grants.... not earmarked federal dollars, not county money, not local money... State level grants.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

are you under the impression special need skids are being forced out of public school or something?.. Nevada doesn't expect anything other than the parents to choose what they find is best for their kid.... you know, like every other human in the ****ing country does.

special needs get a better deal in public school?.. awesome.. stay in public school and get that better deal.
if a parents says " screw it, the kid will be better off being home schooled .." the state say.. "ok.. here's 6 grand to use"

Nevada can't do anything about IDEA funding, that's federal program... this program here deals with state level grants.... not earmarked federal dollars, not county money, not local money... State level grants.

IDEA funding has nothing to do with the topic at hand. IDEA protects children with disabilities. It took years for people to push laws to maximize the learning of the disabled. In a stroke of a pen, this governor pretty much has set up a situation where public schools will be a dumping ground for kids private schools deem 'expensive' or as a 'liability'. This will further segregate those who worked very hard to not be segregated from the community.

 

[roguenuke]

are you under the impression special need skids are being forced out of public school or something?.. Nevada doesn't expect anything other than the parents to choose what they find is best for their kid.... you know, like every other human in the ****ing country does.

special needs get a better deal in public school?.. awesome.. stay in public school and get that better deal.
if a parents says " screw it, the kid will be better off being home schooled .." the state say.. "ok.. here's 6 grand to use"

Nevada can't do anything about IDEA funding, that's federal program... this program here deals with state level grants.... not earmarked federal dollars, not county money, not local money... State level grants.

Here's the problem. Those special needs children generally do require more money than is even allocated to public schools for them to be spent on them, especially those with extensive special needs. My son had two teachers this past year, an Autism teacher and a Kindergarten teacher, plus three assistants. There were 8 students in his autism class this year ( and he needed significantly less attention than many of those other students (parents are asked to volunteer time for these classes as well, which I did, but in itself requires some resources to do background checks for each parent/guardian volunteer). So if more of the regular students use this program to take funding from the schools, that is less money overall the school systems have, but that they did have before, even if it was averaged into the per student costs.

 

[Thrilla]

IDEA funding has nothing to do with the topic at hand. IDEA protects children with disabilities. It took years for people to push laws to maximize the learning of the disabled. In a stroke of a pen, this governor pretty much has set up a situation where public schools will be a dumping ground for kids private schools deem 'expensive' or as a 'liability'. This will further segregate those who worked very hard to not be segregated from the community.

if special needs kids are in private schools already, why would they be dumped?.. this only adds in a funding mechanism to help with tuition ..
if the private school was looking for a way to "dump " these kids... how does giving the parents 6 grand help the school dump them?

if they aren't in private schools.. they are already "dumped" ( according to you) and there is no change.

either way, nothing you say makes sense.


it's funny though... why do you people see public school as a "dumping ground"?... why do you feel public schools are so very bad?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

if special needs kids are in private schools already, why would they be dumped?.. this only adds in a funding mechanism to help with tuition ..
if the private school was looking for a way to "dump " these kids... how does giving the parents 6 grand help the school dump them?

if they aren't in private schools.. they are already "dumped" ( according to you) and there is no change.

either way, nothing you say makes sense.


it's funny though... why do you people see public school as a "dumping ground"?... why do you feel public schools are so very bad?

Politicians are making them dumping grounds. They weed out the top performers and/ or least expensive clientele. The neediest will be segregated. 5700 gran is a frickin joke. That won't cover something like a speech therapist never mind other vital services children with disabilities may require.

 

[Fiddytree]

if special needs kids are in private schools already, why would they be dumped?.. this only adds in a funding mechanism to help with tuition ..
if the private school was looking for a way to "dump " these kids... how does giving the parents 6 grand help the school dump them?

if they aren't in private schools.. they are already "dumped" ( according to you) and there is no change.

either way, nothing you say makes sense.


it's funny though... why do you people see public school as a "dumping ground"?... why do you feel public schools are so very bad?

You're interpreting her post differently.

She's suggesting that because state and federal laws passed in the 1970s stressed the importance of desegregating that specific grouping of students and placed them where the overwhelming majority of students were located (the public school), attempts by the state to create policies which make it both potentially enticing for the majority of regular students (especially the well-performing ones) to "abandon ship" and go to private academies while making it incredibly unlikely that a person with a disability could afford to do so or perform there (due to lack of legal requirements), have pushed us to (framework wise) essentially go back to pre-94-142.

 

[Thrilla]

Here's the problem. Those special needs children generally do require more money than is even allocated to public schools for them to be spent on them, especially those with extensive special needs. My son had two teachers this past year, an Autism teacher and a Kindergarten teacher, plus three assistants. There were 8 students in his autism class this year ( and he needed significantly less attention than many of those other students (parents are asked to volunteer time for these classes as well, which I did, but in itself requires some resources to do background checks for each parent/guardian volunteer). So if more of the regular students use this program to take funding from the schools, that is less money overall the school systems have, but that they did have before, even if it was averaged into the per student costs.

sure they require more money...no doubt about it.

ahh.. you're assuming a mass exodus from the public system resulting in a crisis where a school loses substantial funds from state per-pupil grants.... correct?

 

[Thrilla]

Politicians are making them dumping grounds. They weed out the top performers and/ or least expensive clientele. The neediest will be segregated. 5700 gran is a frickin joke. That won't cover something like a speech therapist never mind other vital services children with disabilities may require.

how are politicians making them a dumping ground?

who is "they" that is supposedly weeding anyone students out?

why do you believe the "neediest" will be segregated... do you also believe there's gonna be a mass exodus from the public system until nothign but special needs kids are left to attend?

6 grand isn't a joke... but it surely doesn't cover 100% of anyones costs, it's not intended to... nor is it intended to be a means tested welfare program.

it can't be used for speech therapist or "other vital services"... nor was it intended to be used for those things.
the law is pretty specific in what that grant can be spent on.



how do you feel about private school and homeschooling?... should we ban them both?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

how are politicians making them a dumping ground?

who is "they" that is supposedly weeding anyone students out?

why do you believe the "neediest" will be segregated... do you also believe there's gonna be a mass exodus from the public system until nothign but special needs kids are left to attend?

6 grand isn't a joke... but it surely doesn't cover 100% of anyones costs, it's not intended to... nor is it intended to be a means tested welfare program.

it can't be used for speech therapist or "other vital services"... nor was it intended to be used for those things.
the law is pretty specific in what that grant can be spent on.



how do you feel about private school and homeschooling?... should we ban them both?

Um, it's not a grant. Please stay on topic or at least know what the topic is:

That amounts to between $5,100 and $5,700 annually, according to the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice. Those funds are deposited quarterly onto a debit card, which parents can use to pay for a variety of education-related services and products — things such as private-school tuition, online learning, special-education services and therapies....

 

[roguenuke]

sure they require more money...no doubt about it.

ahh.. you're assuming a mass exodus from the public system resulting in a crisis where a school loses substantial funds from state per-pupil grants.... correct?

It won't take a mass exodus to cause a lot of harm. It only takes a few key students to leave, coupled with less money to begin with because instead some of the money going to public schools now would be redirected to those families who do have their children in private schools already, to save the parents some money, despite the fact that those without children or whose children have already gone through school don't get such a benefit, they have to still pay to public schools.

 

[Thrilla]

Um, it's not a grant. Please stay on topic or at least know what the topic is:

That amounts to between $5,100 and $5,700 annually, according to the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice. Those funds are deposited quarterly onto a debit card, which parents can use to pay for a variety of education-related services and products — things such as private-school tuition, online learning, special-education services and therapies....

uhh.. I am on topic, and I know what i'm talking about....you've just come along , i've been here the whole time.

and yes, the other things you said are true.

 

[Thrilla]

It won't take a mass exodus to cause a lot of harm. It only takes a few key students to leave, coupled with less money to begin with because instead some of the money going to public schools now would be redirected to those families who do have their children in private schools already, to save the parents some money, despite the fact that those without children or whose children have already gone through school don't get such a benefit, they have to still pay to public schools.

if it only takes a few key students to leave, why hasn't the system collapsed yet?... kids leave school all the time.. they move on to private school, or homeschooling, or just to another district.... it's Nevada, a highly transient state.

what do you mean " less money to begin with"?.. .are you under the impression this program isn't budgeted?


in any event... it's way to early to declare the sky is falling, or that the program is evil ...or it's the greatest thing on earth.
at this point we'll just have to see how it all pans out.

as a Nevada taxpayer with a stake in this, i'll keep my eye on it over the course of time.... as will many others with skin in the game.

 

[Dittohead not!]

I don't think that is the bill being discussed here. What that bill says (see link below) is very different that the bill the article in the OP describes
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/78th2015/Bills/AB/AB165_R1.pdf

The bill the OP describes provides a grant that sets up an account that can be used by parents for a variety of education-related expenses. The bill you refer to does not set up any account. It has the payment going directly to the private school to pay for tuition only.

The bill you describe provides grants up to $7,755 per student. The OP describes the grants as being based on the avg cost per student with a range of $5100-$5700

There are additional differences too.

Either there are two different bills, or the OP article is very inaccurate

on edit: It turns out you are talking about a different bill. The bill in the OP is SB 302
https://legiscan.com/NV/text/SB302/2015

and it turns out the bill does deduct the money given in the grant from the money given to the school district the child was enrolled in

OK, that's the difference.

 

[cpwill]

No, it's just that, as usual, you have completely twisted what's been said, just as you twisted the truth when you claimed the money doesn't come out of the schools budget.

I never claimed it didn't come out of the school's budget.

In the post you quote, I was referring to a tax that funds something specific. In this case, it's not being funded by a tax dedicated to funding this policy. It's funded from a variety of sources including real estate taxes and the fed govt.

In your post you argued that monies are not fungible if they are not put into a general fund, but rather dedicated and only able to be spent on a particular item. Here you argued that monies that are not put into a general fund, and are only able to be spent on a particular item are fungible. Which is it?

When a middle class family's disposable income is supplemented with *my* tax dollars then "Yes, it is a terrible thing"

Ah. So then you aren't just against this program, you are against all public education. Along with the EITC, Social Security, Medicare, ACA subsidies, etc. Interesting - I never knew you for such a far-right libertarian.

Fair point. Since posting that I've found the law and see that the child must have been enrolled in a public school so the money won't go to rich parents whose children are already in private school. However, it can go to those who put their young child in public school for kindergarten and then want to send them to private school after that.

:shrug: again, if the best counter argument is that it's only a good program v a perfect program, then that's still pretty good.

We've already been through this. You're merely repeating yourself

I repeated both my statement and yours to demonstrate that your response was logically disconnected. There is no way in which the state providing education for a child is analogous to you not owning a BMW because the government bought it for you.

No, it doesn't help kids get a better education and it doesn't help poor kids (who are the ones most likely to be stuck in a crappy school) at all.

Quite the contrary - it is poor kids who benefit the most from school choice precisely because they are the ones most likely to be stuck in a crappy school.

load up poor people with debt" is a straw man - just another one of your dishonest arguments.

Ah. So we've gotten to the point in the debate where you accuse me of fallacies that you are engaging in, then.

I said that conservatives were interested in helping poor kids get better education.

Your response was to laugh at the notion that conservatives were interested in helping poor people move into better neighborhoods where they had better schools, which is not what I stated, making this response a strawman.

I responded, no, because loading up poor people with debt, which would be the result of pushing them into housing that is more expensive than they can afford, isn't something conservatives think is wise, we want to improve the school system.

You accused me of a strawman :roll:

No, it's not weighted towards the bottom of the scale because the people there can't afford a private school even with this ESA. $5700 is much less than the cost of a private school in NV

:doh If you get more money because you have less income, then it's weighted towards the bottom of the scale. You could try to make the argument that it's not weighted enough, if you wanted, but the argument that it's not weighted is mathematically illiterate.

 

[Sherman123]

Excellent. Let the Laboratory of Democracy Do It's Thing.

I think this is an extremely interesting idea. That being said I'm not willing to crow that it'll be a success. Let's wait and see what happens. My biggest fear is that you'll have quite a few would be students who will end up losing out because their parents were poor administrators of this money and/or they were unable to select proper and appropriate courses. I also would like to ensure that children are receiving appropriate education, that is to say I don't want public funds to be used to subsidize religious education. All of that being said let's see what happens.

 

[sangha]

I never claimed it didn't come out of the school's budget.

You argued that some of the money that would be used to educate the regular kids would be left behind leaving the schools budget better off. That is not true.

In your post you argued that monies are not fungible if they are not put into a general fund, but rather dedicated and only able to be spent on a particular item. Here you argued that monies that are not put into a general fund, and are only able to be spent on a particular item are fungible. Which is it?

I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)

Ah. So then you aren't just against this program, you are against all public education. Along with the EITC, Social Security, Medicare, ACA subsidies, etc. Interesting - I never knew you for such a far-right libertarian.

I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)

:shrug: again, if the best counter argument is that it's only a good program v a perfect program, then that's still pretty good.

This is a bad program.

I repeated both my statement and yours to demonstrate that your response was logically disconnected. There is no way in which the state providing education for a child is analogous to you not owning a BMW because the government bought it for you.

I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)

Quite the contrary - it is poor kids who benefit the most from school choice precisely because they are the ones most likely to be stuck in a crappy school.

This program does nothing for poor kids.

 

[cpwill]

I think this is an extremely interesting idea. That being said I'm not willing to crow that it'll be a success. Let's wait and see what happens. My biggest fear is that you'll have quite a few would be students who will end up losing out because their parents were poor administrators of this money and/or they were unable to select proper and appropriate courses. I also would like to ensure that children are receiving appropriate education, that is to say I don't want public funds to be used to subsidize religious education. All of that being said let's see what happens.

:shrug: well, that's why we call it a laboratory. It's also why Nevada makes the kids on the program take regular testing, to ensure they are being decently educated.

 

[cpwill]

You argued that some of the money that would be used to educate the regular kids would be left behind leaving the schools budget better off. That is not true.

It is true. Students who leave only take 90% of the cost of educating them with them.

I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)

:lamo I linked and quoted you making it.

Here you are again :

When a tax is dedicated to specific spending (say a school tax) then neither the tax nor the money collected from that tax is fungible. When taxes are collected and put into the general fund, then those dollars are fungible.

This is a bad program.

On the contrary, it's an excellent program. The best positions that those opposed to it have been able to establish thus far is that it is not perfect.

I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)

Oh. I made up that you tried to claim that the state providing for a child's education was analogous to you not owning a BMW because the state bought it for you?

...you do realize the internets are forever, and this thread is recent, right?

Here's Sanga, again, saying something he now claims he never said:

If not for this program, many parents wouldn't have any money available to spend on their kids' education.

And because the govt is buying me a BMW, I don't get to own one.

This program does nothing for poor kids.

On the contrary - this helps individual poor kids to escape failing schools, and provides a corrective vehicle by which to improve the quality of all public schools across Nevada's system, helping those who don't leave.

 

[cpwill]

You argued that some of the money that would be used to educate the regular kids would be left behind leaving the schools budget better off. That is not true.
I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)
I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)
This is a bad program.
I am not going to respond to your dishonest arguments by defending arguments I never made (that you made up)
This program does nothing for poor kids.

...

Bubba, there are smart arguments, and dumb arguments. You're smarter than to like dumb arguments.

 

[justabubba]

Bubba, there are smart arguments, and dumb arguments. You're smarter than to like dumb arguments.

sorry man, but he nailed you on this topic
you want to insist that poor kids will benefit but also recognize that this subsidy will need to be supplemented to allow the poor kid to attend private school. like poor families have the means to make that happen

you insisted that defunding the public schools would make them financially stronger because the non-special need kids would only walk away with 90% of the earmarked expenditure to teach them. financially, schools operate as step functions. that school built to hold 1000 is not any cheaper to operate with 700. akiri has been spot on in each of her comments describing how this is going to be a net loss for society

under this approach, public schools will be the repository for all of the special needs kids, all of the behavior problems, many of those with less academic aptitude. and that is because they cannot turn kids away as can the private schools. so, those most in need, will be left with fewer resources under that plan

and someone also observed that the public schools will lose the concerned parents, when their kids move to private schools. while that will be intangible, it will be a considerable loss to the public school system

if we truly want to introduce competition to public schools, allow the students to attend ANY school within their public school system. that will cause the preferred schools to hold lotteries to select which children receive seats in those recognized superior schools
those parents in the affluent areas, the ones who did not have to concern themselves with the quality of education outside of their carefully gerrymandered school district, will now have children in the 'lesser' schools. because those kids would not have been chosen in the blind lottery. now those parents will need to be concerned about all the schools in their system because their kids/grandkids might wind up being instructed in any of them
some will opt out and incur the cost of a private school education
those who cannot/will not make that financial sacrifice will then have to assist those 'lesser' schools to become better for their childrens' sake
those top tier schools will diminish, because the percentage of kids from means will diminish, and in broad terms, kids from affluent homes tend to have better school performance
but now that those kids from affluent homes will be attending schools outside their normal attendance zone, they, with their parents' help, will bring up the performance standards of the 'lesser' schools

so, cpwill, i will continue to 'like' your posts as they normally appear well considered and articulated. but not within this thread

here is where we may agree on this topic. the kids who will be assisted under this subsidy plan are those middle class kids who want to escape underperforming schools. and now they will have the means, with their willing parents' additional financial sacrifice, to attend a better private school
the others who will be assisted are the parents of private school students who will enjoy a subsidy to which they are not now eligible. subsidizing affluent parents who seek to avoid public schools is not the best way to spend tax dollars

but in my opinion, that will not be worth the enormous cost to the public school system and the students it will continue to serve

 

[sangha]

It is true. Students who leave only take 90% of the cost of educating them with them.

Wrong. They take 90% of the AVERAGE COST PER PUPIL which is more than the cost of educating a non special ed student

On the contrary - this helps individual poor kids to escape failing schools,

No, it doesn't because the grant is not enough to cover private school tuition

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

uhh.. I am on topic, and I know what i'm talking about....you've just come along , i've been here the whole time.

and yes, the other things you said are true.

Again, the OP is not about a grant.