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National Firearm Registry

I can understand opposition to a national registry, but some people here are being a little absurd. While I am against many restrictions on gun control, the notion that anyone should be able to buy a gun without any record being kept of it is a little insane.

The only record that needs to be kept is that of the sale of the item by the store that sold it, and the receipt of said item by the person who bought it should exchange or return be required.
 
I can understand opposition to a national registry, but some people here are being a little absurd. While I am against many restrictions on gun control, the notion that anyone should be able to buy a gun without any record being kept of it is a little insane.

"Congress shall make no laws................"
They've already stepped all over that one, but that's no reason whatsoever to give them any more reach than they already have.
 
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We arent discussing the war on drugs. If you'd like to discuss it, you're free to start a new thread on the subject.

And if you cant control your temper, I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with you.

yeah comparing one item that was completely banned yet the ban failed to stop widespread usage of the item has no use in demonstrating that banning something that will always have at least some legitimate markets would be successful

You are the one losing your temper because you are getting schooled on your poorly reasoned hoplophobic nonsense.
 
The concept of a national firearm registry available to law enforcement has been broached before, but people seem to buck against the idea. Why is this,

Registration is the first step toward confiscation. The illegal guns won't be registered, so it would in effect punish innocent people for the sins of criminals.
 
Maybe you should ask. I dont support civilian disarming, I support reasonable allowances for civilian firearm ownership but I dont support disarming civilians.

I'm not accusing you of anything. No offense, but you're not a national figure in the gun debate. Sarah Brady and her colleagues are, and they've made their position clear many times over the years.

I also don't accept the idea of "reasonable allowances" for civilian firearm ownership; a freely armed citizenry is the default state and any departure from that state is a crime against humanity.

This kind of rhetoric I rather expected: mildly paranoid and entirely un-supported.

I won't argue that I'm mildly paranoid. However, my "rhetoric" as you put it is entirely supported-- by the rhetoric of the same people I have accused of wanting a disarmed populace. In their own words, this is what they want and what you are proposing is how they intend to get it.
 
It's none of the government's business who owns a gun anymore than it's the government's business who owns a knife.

Registering lawful abiding citizens has no effect on crime. Criminals will always use unregistered firearms for their crimes. Why would someone use their registered weapon as part of regular criminal activities??

All this does is track gun ownership and the only reason I can think of to do this is for reasons of power. The 2nd Amendment has to do with keeping a vigilant eye on government just as much as it has to do with the rights of the individual, and part of keeping power over government means that it has zero right to know who holds the weapons. For example, if the government decided to do a big crackdown, it would be able to know which homes are armed and which aren't, how much resources to dedicate to the armed homes, and which homes would be easier to invade. I can see many implications to a national registry.

I used to be that guy who talked about gun laws for controlling criminals, but thankfully I saw the light of day. Gun laws do nothing against criminals, they just take power away from people who should actually have it.
 
I can understand opposition to a national registry, but some people here are being a little absurd. While I am against many restrictions on gun control, the notion that anyone should be able to buy a gun without any record being kept of it is a little insane. The argument that most legal gun owners don't commit crimes is disingenuous since most people don't hijack planes either, that doesn't mean we should not demand photo id for people boarding planes just because most of them aren't going to hijack it.

Why SHOULD there be a record of it? Should we catalog ALL dangerous weapons? Should we create a registry for anything that can be used to make explosives?

Face it...there is ONLY one reason to register firearms...and that is for a government to know who's doors to kick in when they decide its time to confiscate them.
 
I can understand opposition to a national registry, but some people here are being a little absurd. While I am against many restrictions on gun control, the notion that anyone should be able to buy a gun without any record being kept of it is a little insane. The argument that most legal gun owners don't commit crimes is disingenuous since most people don't hijack planes either, that doesn't mean we should not demand photo id for people boarding planes just because most of them aren't going to hijack it.

The information on the gun is recorded and held with the dealer for a term of 20 years.
If the dealer goes out of business before that 20 year period is up, they have to turn in all of their bound books containing that information.

That's all they need.
 
The concept of a national firearm registry available to law enforcement has been broached before, but people seem to buck against the idea. Why is this, what is a coherent argument against having a national firearms registry?

1) It's unconstitutional.

2) It's no one's business who owns what firearm.

3) It's no different than having everyone's DNA and fingerprints on national record.

4) Very very few crimes involving guns are or will be solved with any form of ballistic tracking. Almost all guns used in crimes are stolen or otherwise unregistered. Many guns actually used in crimes are tossed in the river, afterward, destroying finger print evidence even if it's ever found. And very few criminals will submit their heaters for ballistic recording, anyway.

5) If the government doesn't know where the guns are, the government can't confiscate them.

Generally speaking, then, a national firearms registry is illegal, unworkable, and expensive, and would serve no other purpose than the harassment of lawful citizens seeking to exercise their natural right to own weapons for self-defense and hunting.
 
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I can understand opposition to a national registry, but some people here are being a little absurd. While I am against many restrictions on gun control, the notion that anyone should be able to buy a gun without any record being kept of it is a little insane. The argument that most legal gun owners don't commit crimes is disingenuous since most people don't hijack planes either, that doesn't mean we should not demand photo id for people boarding planes just because most of them aren't going to hijack it.

We should NEVER demand photo ID to allow free people living in a free country to use commercial common carriers, be it planes, trains, automobiles, or bicycles built for two.

The possession of technological armaments is the oldest human right, predating homo sapiens itself and the ability to speak symbolic language. There is no need whatsoever for the government to have any record of any gun or gun related commercial transaction, just as the government has no need to monitor hammer sales or provide a punitive tax on assualt nails.
 
Quick thing to point out.

What do you do when someone files off the serial number?
Nothing, the gun is now orphaned making a registry useless.

Or changes the barrel, making any ballistics record meaningless?

Or, hell, just runs a bit of steel wool down the barrel to make more and different scratches on the projectile?

Has there been any mention of registering the batch sales of ammunition and the inclusion of microscopic tracer elements to track the propellant back to the manufacturer and through them to the dealer and the client list?

What if someone knows someone with a lathe and mill who can make his own guns? Is the government going to register and inspect every home garage in the country for these "hidden armories"? I mean from my training in the Navy I know I could make something if I had the tools.

What about steel barstock? Is the government going to regulate that? Will lead be licensed? What about ram rods, will they have to be serialized? Then there's the task of confiscating all the butane lighters in the country so gun addicts can't get the flint to make the sparks to fire their muskets. (Kinda like the laws that forced a simple decongestant into giant pills with no more than 10 to a box, and no more thantwo boxes can be sold in a lame attempt to stem the methamphetamine traffic....which infringes on my right to be able to purchase a product for my health without ridiculous government intrusion.)

Have we managed to make it abundantly clear why anything as silly as a federal firearms registry is so obviously inadequate to the task openly expected of it that there must be a different reason for anyone to advocate it?

Gun grabbers are crazy.

No point in trying to make sense of their delusions.
 
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Or changes the barrel, making any ballistics record meaningless?

Or, hell, just runs a bit of steel wool down the barrel to make more and different scratches on the projectile?

Has there been any mention of registering the batch sales of ammunition and the inclusion of microscopic tracer elements to track the propellant back to the manufacturer and through them to the dealer and the client list?

What if someone knows someone with a lathe and mill who can make his own guns? Is the government going to register and inspect every home garage in the country for these "hidden armories"? I mean from my training in the Navy I know I could make something if I had the tools.

What about steel barstock? Is the government going to regulate that? Will lead be licensed? What about ram rods, will they have to be serialized? Then there's the task of confiscating all the butane lighters in the country so gun addicts can't get the flint to make the sparks to fire their muskets. (Kinda like the laws that forced a simple decongestant into giant pills with no more than 10 to a box, and no more thantwo boxes can be sold in a lame attempt to stem the methamphetamine traffic....which infringes on my right to be able to purchase a product for my health without ridiculous government intrusion.)

Have we managed to make it abundantly clear why anything as silly as a federal firearms registry is so obviously inadequate to the task openly expected of it that there must be a different reason for anyone to advocate it?

Gun grabbers are crazy.

No point in trying to make sense of their delusions.


once again the people who propose these idiotic laws aren't going to be deterred by your well reasoned arguments. The purpose of these laws are to hassle people like you and me, not criminals so telling them how the criminals can avoid these laws has no relevance to them.
 
Firearms is a constiional right in this country so it is insane to be asking that records be kept on something American citizens have a constitutional right to.

People have a right to keep and bear arms, this is not the same as the right to do so completely anonymously.

How many crimes has firearm registration solved? How many crimes has firearm registration prevented? Surely if it did those things then there would be stories of firearm registrations preventing and solving crime.

Honestly, I am not suggesting a firearm registry in the hands of government. Currently there is a requirement for dealers to keep a record. Extending such a requirement to gun shows seems reasonable. I would be against government being able to get on-demand information on any gun-owner in the country, but current law does not do this and at the same time avoids unrecorded transactions.

Making someone show an ID at a airport is not going to prevent them from hijacking a plane nor do I think that's the intent of making someone show an ID to travel on plane.

The hell it isn't. If someone is a fugitive from justice, a person liable to hijack a plane, or a known terrorist operative than ID certainly will prevent them from hijacking the plane because they won't even be able to get on the plane.

I'm against that too. Armed passengers will take care of hijackers.

That's exactly what we need, a bunch of frightened people shooting off projectiles in a crowded space 30,000 feet in the air.

"Congress shall make no laws................"
They've already stepped all over that one, but that's no reason whatsoever to give them any more reach than they already have.

Dude, that is from the first amendment. The second says the right shall not be infringed.

Registering lawful abiding citizens has no effect on crime. Criminals will always use unregistered firearms for their crimes. Why would someone use their registered weapon as part of regular criminal activities??

This just shows your argument is based more on gut and emotion than actual facts. While most do not use a weapon they bought themselves a substantial portion do use their own weapons and a much larger portion use weapons someone close to them purchased. Either way knowing who owns the gun can point at the killer. If you suspect someone of killing a person and the gun used was registered to the suspect's brother then you have an obvious connection. Though, the figures are about a decade old most weapons used in federal crimes were either acquired from a legal source or through a close associate who did.

The 2nd Amendment has to do with keeping a vigilant eye on government just as much as it has to do with the rights of the individual, and part of keeping power over government means that it has zero right to know who holds the weapons.

I agree the 2nd Amendment is about offsetting government power. In fact, I would say that is its chief purpose. Yet at the same time one should understand how restricted that right was in the time it was written. The right to carry arms was not seen as applying to blacks and it was a matter of considerable controversy among whites whether they should have that right. Many favored racist gun control, that is, the people who were most oppressed by early American society were denied the ability and right to resist such oppression.

Essentially they were ok with people having guns so long as those people were not likely to use them against the elite.

We should NEVER demand photo ID to allow free people living in a free country to use commercial common carriers, be it planes, trains, automobiles, or bicycles built for two.

No one has a right to use a plane or a right to use a train. It is a privilege and as such requiring ID to use said privilege is perfectly acceptable.

Why SHOULD there be a record of it? Should we catalog ALL dangerous weapons? Should we create a registry for anything that can be used to make explosives?

Well, I imagine with bomb-making materials you could have something like what they do with meth assuming they don't already.
 
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Well, I imagine with bomb-making materials you could have something like what they do with meth assuming they don't already.

It's very easy to make weapons and explosives out of common household items.

A guy even wrote a book on trying to make a full auto machine gun out of common items at a hardware store.
He succeeded in the design.

Explosives, Ha!
Walmart, Drug stores etc, have tons of easily accessible chemicals useful in making them.
You can't keep track of everything that can be used to make a weapon, it's ridiculous and practically impossible.
 
While I agree with the ease of manufacture.
I would edit your post to remove the instructions, it may incur a mod infraction.
Plus, some kid could find it. ;)

thanks, don't want to get anyone upset or fried
 
People have a right to keep and bear arms, this is not the same as the right to do so completely anonymously.

SO by this logic you should have to register every pencil,pen,paper, religious book, regular book and so on with the government?

The hell it isn't. If someone is a fugitive from justice, a person liable to hijack a plane, or a known terrorist operative than ID certainly will prevent them from hijacking the plane because they won't even be able to get on the plane.

The metal detectors and random pat downs keep people from sneaking a weapon onto a plane as well as a locked cabin which would prevent unauthorized individuals in the cockpit? The only reason for an ID to travel on planes is to control who comes and leaves.
 
I'm not accusing you of anything. No offense, but you're not a national figure in the gun debate. Sarah Brady and her colleagues are, and they've made their position clear many times over the years.
None taken, but I dont support the idea of disarming civilians.

I also don't accept the idea of "reasonable allowances" for civilian firearm ownership; a freely armed citizenry is the default state and any departure from that state is a crime against humanity.
I dont see why the citizenry needs massive amounts of weapons.

The go-to answer for this is they are necessary to resist against government oppression. This sort of ignores the fact that worse governments have been overthrown with lesser armed uprisings and even in countries were the citizens were disarmed or poorly armed, revolution is still often successful.

I won't argue that I'm mildly paranoid. However, my "rhetoric" as you put it is entirely supported-- by the rhetoric of the same people I have accused of wanting a disarmed populace. In their own words, this is what they want and what you are proposing is how they intend to get it.
I dont see that people advocating for a totally disarmed populace have a majority voice in national politics. If anything, such a database could be used as an argument against these individuals by stating that the database is a safeguard against misuse of legally obtained weapons and a way to help track and disrupt arms flowing into the US.

Scarecrow Akbar said:
1) It's unconstitutional.
I dont see that it is, the Constitution does not forbid it.

2) It's no one's business who owns what firearm.
Just as it's no one's business who owns what vehicle or who purchases what prescription?

3) It's no different than having everyone's DNA and fingerprints on national record.
Both are excellent ideas that I fully support.

4) Very very few crimes involving guns are or will be solved with any form of ballistic tracking. Almost all guns used in crimes are stolen or otherwise unregistered. Many guns actually used in crimes are tossed in the river, afterward, destroying finger print evidence even if it's ever found. And very few criminals will submit their heaters for ballistic recording, anyway.
Can you substantiate this with statistics?

5) If the government doesn't know where the guns are, the government can't confiscate them.
What evidence do you have that registration leads to confiscation? I've seen this argument made before and it's a grossly lacking argument as we have a multitude of items that are tracked by some agency and yet are not confiscated; vehicles and prescription medication to name a start.

Generally speaking, then, a national firearms registry is illegal, unworkable, and expensive, and would serve no other purpose than the harassment of lawful citizens seeking to exercise their natural right to own weapons for self-defense and hunting.
Where is such a database made illegal?

And can you explain why mailing in or e-filing a simple form is harassment?
 
None taken, but I dont support the idea of disarming civilians.

I dont see why the citizenry needs massive amounts of weapons.

The go-to answer for this is they are necessary to resist against government oppression. This sort of ignores the fact that worse governments have been overthrown with lesser armed uprisings and even in countries were the citizens were disarmed or poorly armed, revolution is still often successful.

I dont see that people advocating for a totally disarmed populace have a majority voice in national politics. If anything, such a database could be used as an argument against these individuals by stating that the database is a safeguard against misuse of legally obtained weapons and a way to help track and disrupt arms flowing into the US.


I dont see that it is, the Constitution does not forbid it.


Just as it's no one's business who owns what vehicle or who purchases what prescription?

Both are excellent ideas that I fully support.

Can you substantiate this with statistics?

What evidence do you have that registration leads to confiscation? I've seen this argument made before and it's a grossly lacking argument as we have a multitude of items that are tracked by some agency and yet are not confiscated; vehicles and prescription medication to name a start.

Where is such a database made illegal?

And can you explain why mailing in or e-filing a simple form is harassment?

Need has nothing to do with constitutional rights. You don't NEED to post your opinions on this board or to go to church etc.

And if you don't think registration leads to confiscation you are clearly ignorant of reality.

tell us-if the goverment wanted to ban guns would it be easier to confiscate them if they had a registry of all or most of the guns and who owned them, or if they did not?

and tell us-why does every group that wants to ban or severely limit private possession of some typer or all firearms support registratin?

you pretty much killed any chance of being seen as rational on this issue when you claim that registration has not lead to confiscation after what happened in NJ, NY, California, Australia and England
 
SO by this logic you should have to register every pencil,pen,paper, religious book, regular book and so on with the government?

Not having a right to do something anonymously is not the same as requiring it be done publicly. However, being required to register everything one owns would be a serious infringement of the right to privacy I think. Like I said the current system where information is held by dealers of guns is acceptable, some even oppose this requirement. I would even suggest it be tightened in a sense

The metal detectors and random pat downs keep people from sneaking a weapon onto a plane as well as a locked cabin which would prevent unauthorized individuals in the cockpit? The only reason for an ID to travel on planes is to control who comes and leaves.

Random pat downs means not everyone gets one and there are many weapons that can avoid triggering a metal detector, as well as items that can be disguised as something other than a weapon. Trying to prevent people from bringing such implements on board is exactly why these increasingly invasive methods are being developed. To suggest requiring an ID is more invasive is quite an astounding claim.
 
Need has nothing to do with constitutional rights. You don't NEED to post your opinions on this board or to go to church etc.
The logic behind it is the same as the logic behind why making bombs is illegal; you pose a risk to those around you either by an accident or planned violence.

And if you don't think registration leads to confiscation you are clearly ignorant of reality.
You keep repeating stuff like this but you wont substantiate it.

tell us-if the goverment wanted to ban guns would it be easier to confiscate them if they had a registry of all or most of the guns and who owned them, or if they did not?
If the government wanted to ban guns, they'd have done it already. As it is, there are A LOT of guns out there so banning and confiscating them would be a difficult proposition.

and tell us-why does every group that wants to ban or severely limit private possession of some typer or all firearms support registratin?
Well since I left my magic mind reading hat in my OTHER pants pocket, I couldn't tell you. I'm not responsible nor privy to what these individuals think or feel.

you pretty much killed any chance of being seen as rational on this issue when you claim that registration has not lead to confiscation after what happened in NJ, NY, California, Australia and England
Really? Can you show me that widespread confiscations happened in New Jersey, New York, California, Australia, and England? Guy buy-back programs do not count.
 

The fact is that it serves no purpose.
A gun can be altered making it untraceable if someone wants.
We are supposed to be a freedom based society.
Registration is the presumption of guilt before due process.

A lot of non violent (normally) law abiding people won't comply out of protest.
You'd make them into felons for a victimless crime.

You're asking for a black market in untraceable firearms to spring up.
The infrastructure already exists to make this a reality via the Mexican drug cartels.

Bomb making materials are widely available/easily accessible yet few people use bombs on a regular basis.

You're safety wants stop at my freedom wants.
That reason is good enough.
 
The logic behind it is the same as the logic behind why making bombs is illegal; you pose a risk to those around you either by an accident or planned violence.

You keep repeating stuff like this but you wont substantiate it.

If the government wanted to ban guns, they'd have done it already. As it is, there are A LOT of guns out there so banning and confiscating them would be a difficult proposition.

Well since I left my magic mind reading hat in my OTHER pants pocket, I couldn't tell you. I'm not responsible nor privy to what these individuals think or feel.

Really? Can you show me that widespread confiscations happened in New Jersey, New York, California, Australia, and England? Guy buy-back programs do not count.

I cite where registration has facilitated confiscation and you ignore it because you lose

as to risks-governments have already determined that even the most powerful commercially available weapon is useful for self defense by civilians in an urban environment. That sort of slaps your crap that they create an unreasonable risk that trumps the false issue of Need

if you are too ignorant to understand what happened in those places I mentioned you really aren't learned enough to ask me questions. Its like debating a chess master before you understand that the bishop moves in a different way than a rook
 
Random pat downs means not everyone gets one and there are many weapons that can avoid triggering a metal detector, as well as items that can be disguised as something other than a weapon. Trying to prevent people from bringing such implements on board is exactly why these increasingly invasive methods are being developed. To suggest requiring an ID is more invasive is quite an astounding claim.

Actually, what exactly does requiring an ID do for plane security? The only thing that I can think of it actually doing is preventing someone from coming to the airport and stealing someone else's ticket to board the plane. If someone knows or suspects that their name is on the national no-fly list and they are a terrorist, what is to keep them from getting a fake ID card? Trust me, the TSA people are not that bright when it comes to ID cards. From recent experience, I don't think most of them really know what to look for when it comes to a fake ID.
 
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