My trip to the hospital

[Deuce]

No argument from me,...other than to say if it's mandatory,... I'll fight it regardless of what the predicted savings are.

Does this include building roads and schools and fighter jets?

 

[Chuz Life]

Does this include building roads and schools and fighter jets?

Roads and jets (transportation and defense) are for the benefit of all and are essentially provided for in the Constitution.

I can't build, maintain and use to the exclusion of others my own roads and Air Force,.... I can however, provide my own healthcare.

 

[Jerry]

Here was my bill: $0.

What's your tax rate in Canada?

 

[VanceMack]

Just thought I would post this anecdote about a recent experience with Canadian health care.

Yesterday afternoon, following a chicken sandwich lunch, I came down with food poisoning. The feelings of queasiness started at school and by the time I was on the train headed home I felt really out of it. At home, I started to vomit and have diarrhea (a couple of times simultaneously, yuck) every 15 minutes for the next 5 hours. If I drank a teaspoon of liquid, I would throw it up immediately after. I had a high fever and was becoming delirious.

At that point my roommates called an ambulance. They arrived and gave me an IV, and took me straight to the emergency room where I was given blood, urine, and stool tests to confirm the identity of the culprit: salmonella.

The paramedics gave me an IV and an attending physician augmented it with some gravol to stop my stomach spasms (I was throwing up bile at this point and it was extremely painful). That was just the stop gap measure. The physician didn't return to check on me for the next 4 hours or so because apparently there was a huge pile up in Mission (a nearby city) and the injured were being redirected to Vancouver's main hospital. This is what's known as priority sequence.

The lab tests revealed that my white blood cell count was through the roof which meant my body was heavily on the offensive, and this explained the high fever. A nurse came to check on me every half hour or so, bringing a cold cloth and a fresh bag of fluids. The ER bed was bloody uncomfortable and the lights felt blaring but I managed to get in a few hours sleep.

By morning I had gone through 4 IV bags of fluids yet had not urinated - that's how dehydrated I was - but I was well enough to send home with some anti-spasmodic medication for my GI. Just as an aside: although I am in the natural health field and don't favor western medication, I think western medicine is second to none when it comes to emergency situations; thus, in this scenario, I was grateful.

Here was my bill: $0

The cost of the ambulance, IVs, medications, a bed in the ER, and the attention of a nurse and an on call physician was nothing.

I am a student. I don't have much money. My situation was critical. I would have ended up at the hospital anyway, but with no way to pay the bill. I too am a health care provider (mostly for chronic conditions), so how would it affect my service to society to have an additional debt and crediting agencies knocking at my door?

I am thankful today for Canada's health care. I don't care that I had to wait 4 hours. I was in pain but I wasn't dying, and thanks to the health care system I went home in much better shape than I arrived.

I would rather that than still having to wait 4 hours but have a ludicrous hospital bill, and I would rather pay taxes towards UHC and know that other fellow countrymen in my circumstances or worse can get care without the bill ruining their lives, families, or degrading their communities.

Truly glad you are OK and this was a positive experience for you.

Ive had similar experiences here...and not had to pay anything because i have insurance...and yes...I pay for my insurance, but then...dont think for a second that Canadians dont 'pay' for health care.

Now...if we both agree that there are truths about POSITIVE experiences is it also possible to agree that not every case is as rosy as yours?

Since we are telling stories...I have an associate who I work with from time to time that called me from the hospital at 9pm last week. She has been tasked to take 2 medicare recipients to the hospital for follow ups. All the 'appointments' were done by 5 and the medicare recipients all get seen on a first come first service after 5 for non-emergent care. 4 hours later they still hadnt been seen. Thats the level of care MANY (not all) of our medicare/medicaid recipients recieve.

 

[VanceMack]

Sorry, I keep forgetting this isn't common knowledge. A lot of people do a double take when they hear this.


OECD Health Data 2010 - Frequently Requested Data
The Excel file there has tons of data. What we're looking at here is "Public Expenditure Per Capita, PPP Adjusted" (2008, as US Data for '09 isn't there)
Canada: $2863
US: $3507

And for comparison, Total Spending:
Canada: $4079
US: $7538

The US actually spends more tax dollars on health care than any nation in the world any nation except Norway as well as spending more private dollars on health care. Crazy, eh?

Do you ever wonder or ask where they get those figures? What they actually mean and if they are even close to being actually true figures? And that says nothing of the quality of care that you are paying for.

Might be interesting...you know...if you talked to a hospital administrator or accounting manager. or a private practitioner.

 

[VanceMack]

That's fine.

But Orion said it "cost him nothing" and that isn't likely true.

Oh I dont know...if he is unemployed or even just visiting it could easily cost him nothing if he didnt contribute to the healthcare system via taxes. But where your point is that people that actually work for a living in Canada absolutely pay for their 'free' healthcare...you are of course correct...

 

[Chuz Life]

Oh I dont know...if he is unemployed or even just visiting it could easily cost him nothing if he didnt contribute to the healthcare system via taxes. But where your point is that people that actually work for a living in Canada absolutely pay for their 'free' healthcare...you are of course correct...

Thanks,.. that is a big part of my point.

The other is that they 'pay for it' in the way of not having competition.

I had 4 years of Government run healthcare while I was active duty in the Marines.

I've had my fill of government run anything.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Roads and jets (transportation and defense) are for the benefit of all and are essentially provided for in the Constitution.

I can't build, maintain and use to the exclusion of others my own roads and Air Force,.... I can however, provide my own healthcare.

Really? If a drunk driver hit you and forced you to get a heart transplant, you could pay for that yourself in cash?

 

[winston53660]

Thanks,.. that is a big part of my point.

The other is that they 'pay for it' in the way of not having competition.

I had 4 years of Government run healthcare while I was active duty in the Marines.

I've had my fill of government run anything.

And. I've had 43 years of a privatized that stole 10 years of my life because of bills. Amd i have to do it again seeing i need a heart transplant. Do you know wjat in our current system. Heck th durhery is a piece compared to the bills.

 

[Chuz Life]

Really? If a drunk driver hit you and forced you to get a heart transplant, you could pay for that yourself in cash?

I enjoy the freedom to shop my own health insurance plans,...to pay for added coverage if I want to and to have more than one provider competing for my health care dollars.

 

[Chuz Life]

And. I've had 43 years of a privatized that stole 10 years of my life because of bills. Amd i have to do it again seeing i need a heart transplant. Do you know wjat in our current system. Heck th durhery is a piece compared to the bills.

Looks like you should be calling 911 instead of typing a response there slick.

 

[winston53660]

Looks like you should be calling 911 instead of typing a response there slick.

Not even funny to someone with heart failure.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

I enjoy the freedom to shop my own health insurance plans,...to pay for added coverage if I want to and to have more than one providor competing for my health care dollars.

Right out of college while looking for a job my sister's insurance cost $400/month. She obviously couldn't afford that and fortunately my parents could. Had she not had that support network, what do you think she should have done? How could she possibly have handled unforseen, impossible to avoid health problems at that point?

 

[Chuz Life]

Not even funny to someone with heart failure.

Oh please,... I've been living with heart failure and a lot worse for years.

 

[Chuz Life]

Right out of college while looking for a job my sister's insurance cost $400/month. She obviously couldn't afford that and fortunately my parents could. Had she not had that support network, what do you think she should have done? How could she possibly have handled unforseen, impossible to avoid health problems at that point?

You're right,.... everyone else owes her, me you and their neighbors coverage.

The math problem I'm having trouble with is,... "how can I afford to buy for everyone else,... but not for my own?"

Oh that's right,... we can just add it it the debt.

(13+ TRILLION now and counting)

 

[winston53660]

Oh please,... I've been living with heart failure and a lot worse for years.

Oh yeah that is why you want a more costly system.

 

[Deuce]

You're right,.... everyone else owes her, me you and their neighbors coverage.

The math problem I'm having trouble with is,... "how can I afford to buy for everyone else,... but not for my own?"

Oh that's right,... we can just add it it the debt.

(13+ TRILLION now and counting)

Literally every country with some form of universal health care does it cheaper than we do, so making the cost argument is just stupid. Many of those countries don't even use "government-run" systems, many use private doctors and private insurance companies.

 

[Deuce]

Do you ever wonder or ask where they get those figures? What they actually mean and if they are even close to being actually true figures? And that says nothing of the quality of care that you are paying for.

Might be interesting...you know...if you talked to a hospital administrator or accounting manager. or a private practitioner.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary or are you just dismissing the numbers because you don't want them to be true?

 

[Solidus]

"Here was my bill: $0 ... The cost of the ambulance, IVs, medications, a bed in the ER, and the attention of a nurse and an on call physician was nothing."

Here is my main concern with the OP. While his bill may have been $0, the cost of all those things was much greater. Some of the cost was covered by the OPs taxes, the rest by the taxes of others. Simply dividing the cost of medical services amongst the entire population doesn't make the services cost any less. I'll grant that tucked into most legislation creating government single payer health insurance are price controls (or similar) on those things but none of that is inherent to government as single payer health insurance.

So for everyone who wants to use this as a system vs. system anecdote ...

1) What is the actual cost of an ambulance trip in Canada? In the US? Why the difference?

2) What is the actual cost of food poisoning meds in Canada? In the US? Why the difference?

3) What is the actual cost of an ER bed in Canada? In the US? Why the difference?

4) What is the actual cost of nurse time in Canada? In the US? Why the difference?

5) What is the actual cost of physician time in Canada? In the US? Why the difference?


I'll grant that 2, 4, and 5 are probably more expensive in the US. 2, due to stupid pharmaceutical exporting tricks (can be resolved independently of government as single payer health insurer). 4 and 5, simply because they are paid more per hour in the US (again, could be resolved independently of single payer health insurer). 1 and 3 are likely to be the same. For everyone who will point out that the OP doesn't have to pay insurance premiums, I'll add ...

6) What is the average Canadian tax outlay for health care? What is the average insurance premium in the US?

Furthermore, if the US were to move towards a more free-market approach to health care services. The cost of medication, physician services, and nursing services, will decrease due to competition; as seen in every other US professional service industry.

"Really? If a drunk driver hit you and forced you to get a heart transplant, you could pay for that yourself in cash?"

False Dichotomy. "Providing for your own health care needs" includes buying health insurance. Proper health insurance would cover the unexpected / accidental need for a heart transplant, just as proper auto insurance covers the unexpected / accidental need for car repair (but not oil changes, regular maintenance, etc.)

"Right out of college while looking for a job my sister's insurance cost $400/month. She obviously couldn't afford that and fortunately my parents could. Had she not had that support network, what do you think she should have done? How could she possibly have handled unforseen, impossible to avoid health problems at that point?"

The quoted figure is not for 'emergency only' health insurance (like auto insurance), which would be significantly cheaper. Reforming the US system towards a more free-market approach would allow for such insurance. Additionally I'm not sure why it's obvious she couldn't afford the $400 a month? Was she living hand to mouth with no luxuries to give up? Since she did have a support network, why do you assume other people do not?

J

 

[Chuz Life]

Literally every country with some form of universal health care does it cheaper than we do, so making the cost argument is just stupid. Many of those countries don't even use "government-run" systems, many use private doctors and private insurance companies.

If you trust the US government to run your healthcare?

That's fine with me.

I don't.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Americans spend more on healthcare than other developed countries. That's an undisputed fact. That doesn't make universal care the way to go. The US system is so loaded regulations and cost perverting tax incentives that it's nowhere near a free market. Costs in the US stayed pretty closely in line with inflation until various federal, state, and local governments started meddling more in the system.

 

[Chuz Life]

Oh yeah that is why you want a more costly system.

As my providing for my own healthcare does not violate anyone elses rights,... but is actually one of my freedoms,... I want the government to leave MY healtcare choices alone.

 

[Deuce]

As my providing for my own healthcare does not violate anyone elses rights,... but is actually one of my freedoms,... I want the government to leave MY healtcare choices alone.

And how about systems of universal health care that are delivered by private companies and private practitioners?

 

[Chuz Life]

And how about systems of universal health care that are delivered by private companies and private practitioners?

Medicare?

medicaide?

 

[Dezaad]

Roads and jets (transportation and defense) are for the benefit of all and are essentially provided for in the Constitution.

I can't build, maintain and use to the exclusion of others my own roads and Air Force,.... I can however, provide my own healthcare.

Not so fast, there, sparky. The entire federal budget was 3,518 Trillion. The U.S. Population is 300 million. Your share, not including any share your wife and or children owe (each) is 10,000 dollars (approximately). If you paid any less than that last year, someone else was paying your way. Awww hell, lets exclude SS and Medicare/Medicaid. Your share was 6182 dollars. Got any kids? They're now in debt 6182 each to that nebulous "other" who is supposedly paying your way. And since you're their parent, well, fork it over, 6182 for each of 'em.

Think I'm being ridiculous? No more ridiculous, in principle, than that ridiculous notion that taking taxes from those most able to do without it is somehow "stealing".

Your share of the defense budget alone was $2234. Why should anyone have to subsidize YOUR defense, pay any more for defense than you pay. Why should a wealthy person have to pay 8000 for their defense, while you pay, ohhhh, say, 500? Did it cost us more to defend THEM than it did YOU? Hell no.

You see, a flat tax isn't even a "fair" tax. Even a flat tax takes money from the wealthy and subsidizes everyone, EVERYONE who is not wealthy. If it is wrong to take from the Wealthy to "subsidize" everyone else using a progressive tax system, then it is wrong to do it with any other tax system. A head tax is the only, THE ONLY tax system that avoids subsidy.

If we accept that "subsidy" is wrong, then each live person living in the U.S. and benefiting from our system should receive a bill each year from the government for around 10000 dollars. Anything else is state sponsored robbery.

I can't believe people can't figure this out for themselves.