My advice to Zelensky: Capitulate. Immediately.

[watsup]

Perhaps some of you have seen or read Catch 22:

"Old man in whorehouse : I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.

Capt. Nately : You talk like a madman.

Old man in whorehouse : But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.

Capt. Nately : You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

Old man in whorehouse : You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.

Capt. Nately : How do you know?

Old man in whorehouse : Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?

Capt. Nately : I'll be 20 in January.

Old man in whorehouse : If you live."

Catch-22 (1970) - IMDb

Catch-22 (1970) Marcel Dalio as Old Man

www.imdb.com

For right now, I am just wanting the Ukranians to live. They can develop some underground methods to foil total Russian domination, but they will still be alive.

And if you have never read Catch-22, you need to.

 

[watsup]

No, they are not. They are in an urban environment which is probably far more difficult and treacherous for an occupying military, or have you already forgotten the lessons of Fallujah?

Again, they are in a MODERN urban environment, not a Third World backwater like Fallujah. And what actually happened to Fallujah. Is that what you want, for everyone to have to evacuate to avoid being killed by crossfire, and then come back to ruins? Sadly, I don't see the point of that. At least they will be alive and their infrastructure will be relatively unscathed.

 

[watsup]

I'm not mad at you. Don't be silly.
You have a right to your opinion.

As do you. Thanks.

 

[eohrnberger]

Again, they are in a MODERN urban environment, not a Third World backwater like Fallujah. And what actually happened to Fallujah. Is that what you want, for everyone to have to evacuate to avoid being killed by crossfire, and then come back to ruins? Sadly, I don't see the point of that. At least they will be alive and their infrastructure will be relatively unscathed.

The Ukrainians really don't have much of a choice, given the situation which Putin has forced on them.

You are advocating laying down and subjugation. You don't seem to realize that there are things in life worth fighting for. Since 2013 the Ukrainians have had a tastes of what freedoms are and what a democracy is, albite nascent and flawed with corruption, but still, apparently not something they are willing to give up by via subjugation.

We can play peanut gallery pundits all we want. What the Ukrainians do is going to be up to them.

I'm wondering when the Russians will start building a wall on the Western Ukrainian border and establishing a kill zone in front of it complete with guard towers, if history is any indication.

 

[post]

You figuring to evacuate an entire nation's population? If even possible?
Shit man! The Biden administration couldn't even properly evacuate Afghanistan!

No, the Russian / Afghanistan model would seem to be the more effective model in this situation.

2021 Kabul airlift - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The evacuation operations were one of the largest airlifts in history.[24][25] Between 14 and 25 August, the US evacuated about 82,300 people from Hamid Karzai International Airport,[26] including US citizens, Special Immigrant Visa applicants, and other vulnerable Afghans.[25] Over 122,000 people were airlifted abroad.[13] ..."

Pence aide blames Stephen Miller for 'devastating' visa ...​

https://www.usatoday.com › news › politics › 2021/08/21
Aug 21, 2021 — Olivia Troye said Stephen Miller, a senior adviser to former President Donald Trump, undermined anyone trying to get the allies out of ...

Former Pence Aide Say Trump, Miller Stymied Afghan Refugee​

https://www.nytimes.com › World › Asia Pacific
Aug 21, 2021 — Stephen did not even work on SIV policy.” Ms. Miller also linked to a government study showing that the number of Special Immigrant Visas ...

Off the Rails: Trump’s failed 11th-hour military withdrawal campaign

A behind-the-scenes look at former President Trump’s unprecedented clash with the Pentagon.

www.axios.com

Jonathan Swan, Zachary Basu
May 16, 2021 - Politics & Policy

Episode 9: Trump's war with his generals​

"..John McEntee, one of Donald Trump's most-favored aides, handed retired Army Col. Douglas Macgregor a piece of paper with a few notes scribbled on it. He explained: "This is what the president wants you to do."

1. Get us out of Afghanistan.

2. Get us out of Iraq and Syria.

3. Complete the withdrawal from Germany.

4. Get us out of Africa.

It was Nov. 9, 2020 — days after Trump lost his re-election bid, 10 weeks before the end of his presidency and just moments after Macgregor was offered a post as senior adviser to acting Defense Secretary Christopher Miller.

As head of the powerful Presidential Personnel Office, McEntee had Trump's ear. Even so, Macgregor was astonished. He told McEntee he doubted they could do all of these things before Jan. 20.

"Then do as much as you can," McEntee replied.

In Macgregor's opinion, Miller probably couldn't act on his own authority to execute a total withdrawal of U.S. military forces from Afghanistan because he was serving in an acting capacity. If this was for real, Macgregor told McEntee, then it was going to need an order from the president.

The one-page memo was delivered by courier to Christopher Miller's office two days later, on the afternoon of Nov. 11. .."

 

[watsup]

The Ukrainians really don't have much of a choice, given the situation which Putin has forced on them.

You are advocating laying down and subjugation. You don't seem to realize that there are things in life worth fighting for. Since 2013 the Ukrainians have had a tastes of what freedoms are and what a democracy is, albite nascent and flawed with corruption, but still, apparently not something they are willing to give up by via subjugation.

We can play peanut gallery pundits all we want. What the Ukrainians do is going to be up to them.

I'm wondering when the Russians will start building a wall on the Western Ukrainian border and establishing a kill zone in front of it complete with guard towers, if history is any indication.

I spent a year in Vietnam killing Commies. What did I accomplish in the long run? Vietnam is now a very industrious country with plenty of tourism, too. The people are generally doing fine as long as they don’t grouse about the government too much. The national spirit is shining through in spite of repression. I think that the Ukraine people also have spirit that will shine through for the long term, long after Putin is dead. And they will be alive.

 

[Irredentist]

I spent a year in Vietnam killing Commies. What did I accomplish in the long run? Vietnam is now a very industrious country with plenty of tourism, too. The people are generally doing fine as long as they don’t grouse about the government too much. The national spirit is shining through in spite of repression. I think that the Ukraine people also have spirit that will shine through for the long term, long after Putin is dead. And they will be alive.

They might be alive, but Ukraine will be dead forever, if no one is willing to fight for it. The Ukrainians need to prove to the world that their Nation has a right to exist, by laying down their lives for it.

 

[eohrnberger]

I spent a year in Vietnam killing Commies.

I thank you for your service.

What did I accomplish in the long run? Vietnam is now a very industrious country with plenty of tourism, too.

True.

The people are generally doing fine as long as they don’t grouse about the government too much.

Restricted and punished by the government for grousing or expressing their opinions. Not necessarily the highest bar of a free society.

The national spirit is shining through in spite of repression. I think that the Ukraine people also have spirit that will shine through for the long term, long after Putin is dead. And they will be alive.

Maintaining that 'national spirit' at this time would mean the need to resist the Russian occupation, would it not? This resistance would appear to be in their cultural history? Or not?

Again, I'm not one to cheer on someone else's death, but this is the first step on a long road, such as we've already seen from post WW II cold war to Russian collapse. Another one might yet be in the future, depending on how Putin's succession is handled. He's not a young man anymore.

 

[HangLow]

I'm not mad at you. Don't be silly.
You have a right to your opinion.

​

^^^^^^^^ **** THAT ^^^^^^^^^
California is the place to be

​

 

[justabubba]

Worst post ever.

You misspelled “most astute “

 

[TheParser]

Just heard that President Z is staying in the capital instead of fleeing.

Will Russians seize and kill him as he was "escaping"? Or send him to Siberia?

He is certainly a hero and may become a martyr in Ukrainian history.

The saddest thing is that after a decent interval, world "leaders" will again be talking and bowing & scraping to that monster in the Kremlin. (Kudos to those brave Russian citizens who have protested their country's aggression.)

 

[watsup]

Just heard that President Z is staying in the capital instead of fleeing.

Will Russians seize and kill him as he was "escaping"? Or send him to Siberia?

He is certainly a hero and may become a martyr in Ukrainian history.

The saddest thing is that after a decent interval, world "leaders" will again be talking and bowing & scraping to that monster in the Kremlin. (Kudos to those brave Russian citizens who have protested their country's aggression.)

Hear hear! And what are your thoughts about an American who says that Putin is a "genius" and those who agree with him?

 

[TheParser]

And whreat are your thoughts about an American who says that Putin is a "genius" and those who agree with him?

I voted twice for President Trump, and I would do so again in a New York minute. (Mainly because he refused to kneel in 2020.)

But I agree that he is wrong in praising the Russian monster who is killing innocent civilians who just want to live normal lives, as we all do.

I personally hope that Mr. Trump does not get the Republican nomination. He has a truly obnoxious personality.

He is irrepressible and will never change.

 

[Felis Leo]

Does Vlad give you a bonus based on the number of outright lies that you spread in US social media?

That's the great thing about robots. You don't have to pay them.

 

[Felis Leo]

I spent a year in Vietnam killing Commies. What did I accomplish in the long run? Vietnam is now a very industrious country with plenty of tourism, too. The people are generally doing fine as long as they don’t grouse about the government too much. The national spirit is shining through in spite of repression. I think that the Ukraine people also have spirit that will shine through for the long term, long after Putin is dead. And they will be alive.

I would submit you learned the wrong lesson from your service, watsup. Vietnam won its independence from invaders. The Northern Vietnamese won against the French. They won against the United States. They won against China. They won because they were willing to sacrifice and fight with ruthless aplomb against those who they thought were trying to control them. Perhaps Ukraine could learn a lesson from Vietnam. As could Russia.

 

[post]

I voted twice for President Trump, and I would do so again in a New York minute. (Mainly because he refused to kneel in 2020.)

But I agree that he is wrong in praising the Russian monster who is killing innocent civilians who just want to live normal lives, as we all do.

I personally hope that Mr. Trump does not get the Republican nomination. He has a truly obnoxious personality.

He is irrepressible and will never change.

You are as Hillary described... irredeemably.

Shock And Dismay After Trump Pardons Blackwater Guards Who Killed 14 Iraqi Civilians

"We were surprised that the American president issued a decision to pardon these criminals, murderers and thugs," says an Iraqi man who was shot in the 2007 massacre at Baghdad's Nisour Square.

www.npr.org

Shock And Dismay After Trump Pardons Blackwater Guards Who Killed 14 Iraqi Civilians​

December 23, 2020

LAUREL WAMSLEY
Twitter

"On Tuesday, President Trump pardoned 15 people, including Dustin Heard (from left), Evan Liberty, Nicholas Slatten and Paul Slough, the four former government contractors convicted for a 2007 massacre in Baghdad that left more than a dozen Iraqi civilians dead..."

Blackwater’s Bullets Scarred Iraqis. Trump’s Pardon Renewed the Pain. (Published 2020)

Iraqi witnesses against Blackwater guards were promised justice after a mass killing in Baghdad in 2007. ‘Today,’ one said, the bullets still in his leg, ‘they proved to me it was just theater.’

www.nytimes.com

Blackwater’s Bullets Scarred Iraqis. Trump’s Pardon Renewed the Pain.​

Iraqi witnesses against Blackwater guards were promised justice after a mass killing in Baghdad in 2007. ‘Today,’ one said, the bullets still in his leg, ‘they proved to me it was just theater.’

By Falih Hassan and Jane Arraf
Published Dec. 23, 2020
"BAGHDAD, Iraq — Haider Ahmed Rabia was stuck in traffic in Baghdad 13 years ago when guards with the American security contractor Blackwater opened fire with machine guns and grenade launchers, killing or wounding at least 31 Iraqi civilians. He still carries some of those bullets in his legs.
In 2014, he was one of the survivors and family members who flew to the United States to testify in the trial of four of those Blackwater guards, told that the evidence of his injury and his account of that deadly day could help bring justice.
“I went to America and saw the killers walking free, wearing suits,” he said in an interview in Baghdad on Wednesday. “I said, ‘Tomorrow I will return to my country, but will these killers face justice?’”
“Today,” he added, “they proved to me it was just theater.”
He was speaking of President Trump’s pardon this week of those four former Blackwater security contractors, who were convicted in 2014 in what a U.S. court determined were unprovoked shootings in Nisour Square..."

Trump Pardons Two Russia Inquiry Figures and Blackwater Guards (Published 2020)

The pre-Christmas wave of 20 pardons and commutations are not likely to be the last before Mr. Trump leaves office on Jan. 20.

www.nytimes.com

By Maggie Haberman and Michael S. Schmidt
Published Dec. 22, 2020
"...and three corrupt former Republican members of Congress.

It was a remarkable assertion of pardon power by a president who continues to dispute his loss in the election and might well be followed by other pardons in the weeks before he leaves office on Jan. 20.

Mr. Trump nullified more of the legal consequences of an investigation into his 2016 campaign that he long labeled a hoax. He granted clemency to contractors whose actions in Iraq set off an international uproar and helped turn public opinion further against the war there. And he pardoned three members of his party who had become high-profile examples of public corruption.

The 15 pardons and five commutations were made public by the White House in a statement on Tuesday evening. They appeared in many cases to have bypassed the traditional Justice Department review process — more than half of the cases did not meet the department’s standards for consideration — and reflected Mr. Trump’s long-held grudges about the Russia investigation, his instinct to side with members of the military accused of wrongdoing and his willingness to reward political allies...."
..

 

[Geoist]

Kiev had cut off water supply into Crimea ages ago and now that is restored . Did your crooked MSM tell you that ?

Why should Kiev supply water to a territory that is controlled by Russia?

 

[post]

Exactly what Russia has tolerated non stop for 8 years after the US took over effective Ukey government in 2014 .

And last week they stupidly further increased shelling -- over 2000 incidents .

The Dopey One tried to slap the bear and has been knocked flat and frankly has got what was deserved .

Kiev had cut off water supply into Crimea ages ago and now that is restored . Did your crooked MSM tell you that ?

Nice T(r)ucker Carlson impersonation! Bottish of you, to say the least!

The twice impeached entity rated a 312 score by the C-Span presidential historian panel last July chose this human excrement to
arrange his RNC nominaton...

Survey Participants | C-SPAN Survey on Presidents 2021 | C-SPAN.org

www.c-span.org

null​

WASHINGTON (AP) — "Before signing up with Donald Trump, former campaign manager Paul Manafort secretly worked for a Russian billionaire with a plan to "greatly benefit the Putin Government," The Associated Press has learned...
The White House attempted to brush the report aside Wednesday, but it quickly raised fresh alarms in Congress about Russian links to Trump associates.

Manafort proposed in a confidential strategy plan as early as June 2005 that he would influence politics, business dealings and news coverage inside the United States, Europe and former Soviet republics to benefit President Vladimir Putin’s government, even as U.S.-Russia relations under Republican President George W. Bush grew worse.."
apnews.com

How Paul Manafort Helped Elect Russia's Man in Ukraine | Time​

https://time.com › World › Ukraine
Oct 31, 2017 — Donald Trump's onetime campaign chairman played an instrumental role in helping a pro-Kremlin party take power.

A Timeline of Paul Manafort’s Relationship with the Trump World​

Now that Special Counsel Robert Mueller has indicted Paul Manafort, the former chairman of President Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, the White House has already begun to revive its efforts to distance itself from Manafort and play down the role he had on the campaign. But try as they...

www.justsecurity.org

Russian marine kills Ukraine navy officer in Crimea, says ...​

https://www.reuters.com › us-ukraine-crisis-military › r...

Apr 7, 2014 — A Russian soldier shot dead a Ukrainian naval officer in eastern Crimea, Ukraine's Defence Ministry said on Monday, the second Ukrainian ...

Russian soldier kills Ukrainian naval officer in Crimea - France ...​

https://www.france24.com › France 24 › Europe

Apr 7, 2014 — A Russian soldier has shot dead a Ukrainian naval officer in eastern Crimea, Ukraine's defence ministry said on Monday, the second fatality ...

Ukrainian Naval Officer Killed by Russian Soldier in Crimea​

https://time.com › World › europe
Apr 7, 2014 — Pro-Russian Protesters Seize Buildings After Ukrainian Officer Killed by Russian Soldier. Activists prepare a barricade inside a government ...

 

[Antiwar]

Yanis Varoufakis: Europe Must Stand with Ukraine, Condemn Putin & Roll Back NATO to Restore Peace​

 

[vesper]

Right now I do not give a rat's arse about anyone elses opinions. My focus is on the Ukranian people trying to hold onto their freedom with all odds against them.

 

[Grand Mal]

Destroy documents first, and then go on TV and announce that the Ukrainian military is standing down in order to keep the bloodshed of the Ukrainian citizens to a minimum. Adapt and keep the economy buzzing along. Unfortunately, up to a few thousand may end up in prison, but he alternative is ending up dead, and most of them will be released sooner or later. It would be a bitter pill to swallow, but it would help to maintain Ukrainian assets instead of having them destroyed. It’s not much fun living under a Putin dictatorship, bud the people of Moscow seem to do okay as long as they keep their mouths shut about the government. The Ukrainians would lose this war inside of a couple of months anyway, so let’s just avoid the bloodshed and wanton destruction by capitulating now.

Did you ever fight back? If you did, do you regret doing it? Or if you didn't, do you regret not fighting back?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I spent a year in Vietnam killing Commies.

I don't give a shit if you spent twenty years in Nam, there's no way you told Vietnamese to capitulate to Ho Chi Minh, did you?
Weren't you guys pissed off for life at Hanoi Jane, and now you're acting like her?
What's next with you? Telling German Jews that they should have submitted to Adolf Hitler?
Would you be running around during the Warsaw Uprising yelling at them to put down their rifles?

 

[PoS]

Maybe some day someone will kick in your front door, demand that you leave and claim ownership of your house and then you can capitulate!

ROTFLMFAO!

 

[Chagos]

I would submit you learned the wrong lesson from your service, watsup. Vietnam won its independence from invaders. The Northern Vietnamese won against the French. They won against the United States. They won against China. They won because they were willing to sacrifice and fight with ruthless aplomb against those who they thought were trying to control them. Perhaps Ukraine could learn a lesson from Vietnam. As could Russia.

Indeed.

Perseverance is often largely defined by what one is willing to pay, if need be all the way to the hilt.

I am, BTW, not advocating that Ukrainians collectively commit suicide.

Certainly not from the comfort and safety reigning behind my keyboard, far from the sound of exploding bombs and shells.

But the principle stands and I've closely seen it at work, even where I'm excused from applying it in my current circumstances.

 

[Felis Leo]

Indeed.

Perseverance is often largely defined by what one is willing to pay, if need be all the way to the hilt.

I am, BTW, not advocating that Ukrainians collectively commit suicide.

Certainly not from the comfort and safety reigning behind my keyboard, far from the sound of exploding bombs and shells.

But the principle stands and I've closely seen it at work, even where I'm excused from applying it in my current circumstances.

Agreed. I do not advocate the Ukrainians going over the top and cheering them on as they are mowed down by Russian machine guns and artillery.

What I am saying is that if they want their country to be free, they have to fight like demons. They have to fight without giving or expecting quarter. They have to make Russia howl and pull back its mangled bloodied hand, like the Vietnamese did to our country, to France and to China, and like the Afghans did to the Soviet Union.