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Mussolini and fascism are both left wing

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:
He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.


Mussolini was a student of Marx:
Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[26] During this period Mussolini considered himself an "authoritarian communist"[27] and a Marxist and he described Karl Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:

Under this labour policy, Fascist Italy enacted laws to make union membership compulsory for all workers.


Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:

Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed". As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".


Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.


He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:

When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".


Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":

During the 1919 elections, the Fascists had attempted to court the socialist-left while publicly dubbing himself the “Lenin of Italy”,[13] attempting to “out-socialist the socialists”


He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity.


Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:

By 1939, Fascist Italy attained the highest rate of state ownership of any economy in the world other than the Soviet Union.

As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.
 
Not Marx, who you cite showing Moussolini to be a leftist.

The evidence is what he believed and what he did after he was in power.

If any of the claims in the op are wrong, feel free to quote them and correct me. If you are right, I will concede you are right.
 
I'm pretty sure I didn't post in that thread at all.
That’s possibly true and thinking about it, I may have gotten you confuse with Morton due to you two having basically the same posting style.

Either way, there’s nothing new in your arguments and I am quite comfortable in my position.
 
The evidence is what he believed and what he did after he was in power.

If any of the claims in the op are wrong, feel free to quote them and correct me. If you are right, I will concede you are right.

Well it's actually pointless, because you just won't accept deviation from your opinion because you have a fundamentally incorrect view of politics, ideology, history, and human nature. And if you acknowledged any of that, it would just drive home the futility and nonsensical status of your ancap beliefs.
 
Well it's actually pointless, because you just won't accept deviation from your opinion because you have a fundamentally incorrect view of politics, ideology, history, and human nature. And if you acknowledged any of that, it would just drive home the futility and nonsensical status of your ancap beliefs.
His POV is essentially that the edge of the corner of the libertarian and conservative quadrant of the Nolan Chart is “right wing” and 98% of the rest of politics is “left wing”
 
So here we are, 29 comments in, and not one poster has attacked or even questioned a single claim in the OP.
 
So here we are, 29 comments in, and not one poster has attacked or even questioned a single claim in the OP.

The claims you have made in the OP have been addressed and debunked in previous threads already. You're just rehashing them because you don't want to accept that.
 
Well it's actually pointless, because you just won't accept deviation from your opinion because you have a fundamentally incorrect view of politics, ideology, history, and human nature.

I'm happy to let the reader decide that for themselves.

As far as Hitler and Mussolini being left wing, the evidence is so overwhelming that all my side has to do is present people with the facts.
 
I'm happy to let the reader decide that for themselves.

This reader has already shown you, in previous discussions, to be wrong.

As far as Hitler and Mussolini being left wing, the evidence is so overwhelming that all my side has to do is present people with the facts.

No it's not. You don't know what left wing or right wing actually mean, which is why you're scared to Google "where does the term right wing come from".
 
This reader has already shown you, in previous discussions, to be wrong.



No it's not. You don't know what left wing or right wing actually mean, which is why you're scared to Google "where does the term right wing come from".
I googled it. Now explain what the answer has to do with the topic.
 
No it's not. You don't know what left wing or right wing actually mean, which is why you're scared to Google "where does the term right wing come from".

I know where it came from, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how the terms are used today.

Today, left wing people support collectivism over individualism, socialism over capitalism, and statism over the free market. Right wing people are the opposite.
 
I googled it. Now explain what the answer has to do with the topic.

Do you think Mussoli and Fascism embraced traditional values and emphasized the importance of hierarchy?
 
I know where it came from, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how the terms are used today.

Today, left wing people support collectivism over individualism, socialism over capitalism, and statism over the free market. Right wing people are the opposite.
Thats exactly right. Fascism can only sprout from the ground fertilized by leftist ideas. Fascism cannot grow where individualism, limited government and liberty are paramount. So the idea that fascism has any connection whatsoever to the modern American right is nothing but another in a long list of Liberal Big Lies.
 
Do you think Mussoli and Fascism embraced traditional values and emphasized the importance of hierarchy?
They embraced the essentials of collectivist/socialist thought. If you want to argue that fascism reflects the right wing on the socialist spectrum with communism representing the left, so be it. But the fact remains that the modern American right has nothing in common with fascism.
 
I know where it came from, but it doesn't matter.

Wrong.

What matters is how the terms are used today.

Yes and no.

It is wise to avoid entrapping oneself purely in the sense of topical and contemporary political disputes because those will naturally change over time; the dispute over the gold standard was at one point a lively debate in America, but not more.

But conservative thought; the idea that we should defer to tradition, respect authority, and preserve the status quo, hasn't changed since the inception of modern politics and remains in force today.

Ironically as an Ancap you are more left wing than you realize, because if you bothered studying history you'd know the history of intertwining between anarchism and Marxism.

Today, left wing people support collectivism over individualism, socialism over capitalism, and statism over the free market. Right wing people are the opposite.

No, this is just the fictional false dichotomy you invented.
 
I know where it came from, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how the terms are used today.

Today, left wing people support collectivism over individualism, socialism over capitalism, and statism over the free market. Right wing people are the opposite.
Then explain the presidency of Reagan, Trump, and both Bushes where social spending increased, regulations increased, and there was no push towards any of those ideals you talk about.

We’re they left wingers in your book?
 
They embraced the essentials of collectivist/socialist thought.

Fascism certainly did not embrace the essentials of socialist thought, as evident by their rejection of the abolition of private property and class consciousness.

If you want to argue that fascism reflects the right wing on the socialist spectrum with communism representing the left, so be it.

I wouldn't, because that'd be pretty nonsensical. Socialism is a pretty left wing ideology and like liberalism is a product of the enlightenment.
 
You just can’t accept the debunking.
Id accept it if it had been debunked. It hasnt. The American right supports limited government, individualism, liberty and capitalism. Fascism is the opposite. Now you go right ahead and debunk any of that. Ill wait.
 
Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:



Mussolini was a student of Marx:


He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:




Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:




Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:




He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:




Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":




He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:




Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:



As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.

Laughably ignorant. Not worthy of a response.
 
Id accept it if it had been debunked. It hasnt. The American right supports limited government, individualism, liberty and capitalism. Fascism is the opposite. Now you go right ahead and debunk any of that. Ill wait.
That’s what libertarians support, it’s not necessarily what the right supports.

When you are able to understand the difference, we can progress into other points.
 
Fascism certainly did not embrace the essentials of socialist thought, as evident by their rejection of the abolition of private property and class consciousness.



I wouldn't, because that'd be pretty nonsensical. Socialism is a pretty left wing ideology and like liberalism is a product of the enlightenment.
Its far less stupid than you trying to tie fascism to the modern American right.
 
Its far less stupid than you trying to tie fascism to the modern American right.

No it isn't, but

A) I don't see fascism as the equivalent of conservatism

B) yes, fascism is on the right wing spectrum, just like communism is on the left wing. But that doesn't make conservatives fascist anymore than it makes every left winger a communist.
 
That’s what libertarians support, it’s not necessarily what the right supports.
False. The farther right you go in American politics the smaller the government, the greater the emphasis on liberty, capitalism and individualism. Those ideals do not exist in fascism.
 
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