Mussolini and fascism are both left wing

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:

He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.

Mussolini was a student of Marx:

Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[26] During this period Mussolini considered himself an "authoritarian communist"[27] and a Marxist and he described Karl Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:

Under this labour policy, Fascist Italy enacted laws to make union membership compulsory for all workers.

Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:

Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed". As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".

Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.

He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:

When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".

Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":

During the 1919 elections, the Fascists had attempted to court the socialist-left while publicly dubbing himself the “Lenin of Italy”,[13] attempting to “out-socialist the socialists”

He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity.

Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:

By 1939, Fascist Italy attained the highest rate of state ownership of any economy in the world other than the Soviet Union.

As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.

 

[Fletch]

The modern American right is fascism. There is no denying this.

No comment on this post @Jredbaron96 ? Or are you just going to accuse me of playing the victim and ignore it?

 

[Slartibartfast]

No, your post made no sense.

I am describing forms of right wing ideology that don't for in your little conceptual box. The entire reason I did so was to show that your conceptual box was insufficient to fully account for the real world.

So left wing = communist so American left wingers are communists. Okay, have it your way.

Your education is seriously lacking if you do not know what the term "spectrum" means.

 

[Fletch]

That link did not dispel any point that the OP made. It was a generic post on Fascism. It does not account for all of the examples the OP gave. The cold hard truth is contained in the OP!!! Do better!

No one has challenged a word of the OP.

 

[Fletch]

I am describing forms of right wing ideology that don't for in your little conceptual box. The entire reason I did so was to show that your conceptual box was insufficient to fully account for the real world.

Your education is seriously lacking if you do not know what the term "spectrum" means.

Great. So put your vast education on the subject to work and tell me where on the spectrum the American right wing falls.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Great. So put your vast education on the subject to work and tell me where on the spectrum the American right wing falls.

That one is easy, its to the right of center, spanning from moderate to extremes such as fascism or libertarianism.

 

[Fletch]

That one is easy, its to the right of center.

So, not fascist then. Please spread the word to your leftist pals who havent figured that out yet.

 

[Juks]

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

I believe you are a little confused. This distortion makes the discussion hard. So, to answer your real question: Why is Fasism called right, well I just need to point out that Left/right has nothing to do with what you call yourself. Not even if your name is Mussolini or Hitler...

The right and left of politics arose in connection with the French Revolution. The supporters of the revolution, of "progress", sat on the left in the French National Assembly, while the opponents sat on the right. However, it is not always the case that the right wants to preserve old institutions and the left wants to change them. Right and left are above all position indications in relation to something else. The concepts are relative and can therefore change depending on time and place. Around the turn of the century in 1900, for example, it was a given that the liberals were on the left and the conservatives on the right. During large parts of the 20th century, the liberals were considered right-wing in Europe, then in relation to the dominant socialism. In the US, liberals have always been seen as left wing.

However, this does not mean that it is completely arbitrary who can call themselves right or left. The fundamental question for the right-left scale is about the view of equality.

The pure leftist position is to regard equality as a completely superior value. Not just economic equality but equality in every imaginable form. The socialist utopia is largely based on this goal. That socialist societies are rarely very egalitarian in practice is a crucial practical objection, but equality remains the goal of those who advocate such societies. Some socialist parties, like the swedish socialdemocrats, have compromised with the ideal of equality and set a material standard increase as an (at least) equally important goal. Equality should promote growth and vice versa. There must be wealth to be distributed even if the process creates some inequality. This makes these parties to be sometimes sorted under the social liberalistic parties. Classical liberalism starts from a negative definition of freedom (i.e. that freedom is achieved when there are no prohibitions or coercion), while social liberalism also contains a positive definition of freedom. There, freedom also means being able to achieve one's own goals, regardless of material limitations. Social liberals are usually in favor of a stronger social safety net and some public intervention in the economy. The central thing about liberalism is that self-determination and freedom for the individual is considered to trump equality as a value. For libertarians, this is fully true.

For the conservatives, it is different collectives that instead trump equality. One's own family, church or nation must be protected and given a special status - at least the state must not actively undermine them in the name of equality or freedom. The conservatives believe that different collectives and traditions are necessary to give the individual a deeper identity. The extreme (or far) right goes further and wants to close the possibility of becoming a member of one's own nation or even suppressing other collectives.

It is not really a given that liberalism should be placed to the left of conservatism. This is mainly due to the fact that both liberals and socialists have in practice advocated reforms and a rational social order. It is clear, however, that both liberals and conservatives stand to the right of those who want to put equality above all else – the real left.

And the circle is closed.

 

[Slartibartfast]

That one is easy, its to the right of center, spanning from moderate to extremes such as fascism or libertarianism.

So, not fascist then. Please spread the word to your leftist pals who havent figured that out yet.

Since you are currently looking for any out you can get, I have updated my comment to be more specific. To be clear, extreme ideologies like fascism and (right) libertarianism are in the extremes of right wing ideology.

 

[Str8shooter]

Fascism is a right wing ideology. No amount of typing will change that.

No amount of typing will change the fact that what is outlined in the OP is what the Democratic Party stands for. You, and others, are fixated on a term. Actions speak louder than words. Discount the examples in the OP.

 

[Fletch]

Since you are currently looking for any out you can get, I have updated my comment to be more specific. To be clear, extreme ideologies like fascism and (right) libertarianism are in the extremes of right wing ideology.

Lol If I was looking for an 'out' I would just leave. So according to you I am on the extreme of the far right ideology, but am not a fascist, correct?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Lol If I was looking for an 'out' I would just leave. So according to you I am on the extreme of the far right ideology, but am not a fascist, correct?

Yes, I honestly believe you are an extremist on the right wing ideological spectrum. I believe this is the case with @aociswundumho as well.

I believe if libertarian ideology was put in place in the greater society then the result will be mass poverty, an earth that is increasingly unsuitable for human habitation, and mass death.

 

[Fletch]

Yes, I honestly believe you are an extremist on the right wing ideological spectrum. I believe this is the case with @aociswundumho as well.

I believe if libertarian ideology was put in place in the greater society will result in mass poverty and death.

So Im on the far right wing but somehow not a fascist. How can that be?
We can discuss your dopey portrayal of libertarianism some other time.

 

[Helix]

No amount of typing will change the fact that what is outlined in the OP is what the Democratic Party stands for. You, and others, are fixated on a term. Actions speak louder than words. Discount the examples in the OP.

You still haven't typed away the fact that fascism is a right wing ideology. This is because it's impossible to do that.

 

[Slartibartfast]

So Im on the far right wing but somehow not a fascist. How can that be?

Because you are a libertarian.

We can discuss your dopey portrayal of libertarianism some other time.

Its the inevitable result of your ideology and those results are why I oppose it.

 

[Fletch]

Because you are a libertarian.

In what significant way do I differ from other far right wingers like Reagan or Gingrich or Limbaugh, all of whom must fall into the fascist catagory, no?

Its the inevitable result of your ideology and those results are why I oppose it.

No it isnt.

 

[Jredbaron96]

No amount of typing will change the fact that what is outlined in the OP is what the Democratic Party stands for.

No amount of claiming this will make it true.

No comment on this post @Jredbaron96 ? Or are you just going to accuse me of playing the victim and ignore it?

Do you want me to fight your battles for you now?

 

[Fletch]

No amount of claiming this will make it true.


Do you want me to fight your battles for you now?

No, I dont need your help. I just thought maybe you would call out posts you know to be lies when spread by someone on your tribe. My mistake.

 

[Slartibartfast]

In what significant way do I differ from other far right wingers like Reagan or Gingrich or Limbaugh, all of whom must fall into the fascist catagory, no?

Probably the best way to represent this would be using something like a modified Nolan chart (aka the political compass chart)



Generally the corners and edges are where we find extremists ideologies. How this chart works is the upper edge is authoritarianism, the right edge is conservatism, the left edge is liberalism, and the bottom edge is individualism.

(I am not perfectly happy with the labeling from this example and may eventually roll my own chart, but its using international labeling which are applied slightly differently then they are in the US. However, as a broad illustration, it serves fairly well. I would replace progressivism with neo-conservatism or perhaps 90s third wave politics (like Bush, Thatcher, and Clinton) and then combine progressivism and social democratism to reflect current US political terminology).

No it isnt.

It literally is. People like you, if you had their way, would achieve little but poverty, crashed economies, and mass death.

 

[Jredbaron96]

No, I dont need your help. I just thought maybe you would call out posts you know to be lies when spread by someone on your tribe. My mistake.

I have in fact debated other left wingers over the association of right wing ideologies and present examples, I'm sorry I'm not doing this enough to your liking.

 

[aociswundumho]

Probably the best way to represent this would be using something like a modified Nolan chart (aka the political compass chart)

Note that on the chart you posted, National socialism is on the left next to communism where it belongs, but look where fascism is.

View attachment 67480208

Generally the corners and edges are where we find extremists ideologies. How this chart works is the upper edge is authoritarianism, the right edge is conservatism, the left edge is liberalism, and the bottom edge is individualism.

That axis is economic. The left edge means no economic freedom and the right edge represents laissez faire:

The economic (left–right) axis measures one's opinion of how the economy should be run.[1]

The Political Compass - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[aociswundumho]

No amount of claiming this will make it true.

Oh, come on.

So your position is that the political left in the US doesn't support unions, high government spending on schools and infrastructure, a large welfare state, and public ownership of certain industries?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Note that on the chart you posted, National socialism is on the left next to communism where it belongs, but look where fascism is.

fascism is where it belongs on that chart and is a separate ideology from national socialism (the Nazi's coopted the movement, historically). Both ideologies are bad in my opinion though, but for their own reasons.

That axis is economic. The left edge means no economic freedom and the right edge represents laissez faire:

Its authoritarianism versus individualism. The chart doesn't really use economics as a dimension. Personally I don't see where the dimension is necessary, but its possible we could have a cube (or shapes that would be very hard to conceptualize if we want to go with even more dimensions).

The Political Compass - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a less labelled version of the same chart.

 

[aociswundumho]

fascism is where it belongs on that chart and is a separate ideology from national socialism

Fascism is separate from Nazism, but it can't be on the opposite side of the chart, as they are similar ideologies.

Its authoritarianism versus individualism.

That's the vertical axis.

The chart doesn't really use economics as a dimension.

Yes it does. This is the typical chart:

 

[CaughtInThe]

Lord, why did you birth so many dumbasses?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Fascism is separate from Nazism, but it can't be on the opposite side of the chart, as they are similar ideologies.

In a lot of ways they are opposite ideologies but are both high in authoritarianism. Nazism (once hitler took over and had the original socialists killed) is a form of fascism. Pre-hitler you might be right.

The nazis took over during the night of king knives and then continued to pay lip service to the ideology they supplanted throughout the war. They never updated their title because there was no marketing advantage to adopting a more accurate label. But that’s what fascists often do, co-opt things for their own purposes and generally lie.

That's the vertical axis.

The vertical axis is authoritarianism versus individualism.

Yes it does. This is the typical chart:

View attachment 67480214

In terms of broad tendency, sure. In terms of actual ideologies you find in the world world, thus chart is not descriptive.