• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going broke

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

An explanation, some kind of logic. For instance:

A1: There is a relatively stable amount of demand for healthcare.
A2: Doctors provide healthcare.
C1: There is a relatively stable demand for doctors. (based on A1 and A2)
A3: More supply leads to a lower price if demand remains relatively stable.
A4: Increasing the number of doctors would lead to more supply.
C2: Increasing the number of doctors would lead to a lower price. (based on C1, A3, and A4)
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

An explanation, some kind of logic. For instance:

A1: There is a relatively stable amount of demand for healthcare.
A2: Doctors provide healthcare.
C1: There is a relatively stable demand for doctors. (based on A1 and A2)
A3: More supply leads to a lower price if demand remains relatively stable.
A4: Increasing the number of doctors would lead to more supply.
C2: Increasing the number of doctors would lead to a lower price. (based on C1, A3, and A4)

Medicine isn't something we comparison shop, especially emergency medicine. We have a hard time saying we'll let little suzzie suffer because it costs too much. No matter how many doctors we get, they will have plenty of patients to be busy, and thus, no need to lower prices. Prices are not up because of a doctor shortage, but because it requires a lot of expertise (not like 1910 when less was needed), and there is an expectation that the doctor actually know what he or she is doing. There is more technology, more procedures, greater call for specialization, and no real way to make things as simple as they were in 1910.

I realize this is counter intuative, and I have looked at it for a good many years. Normal market forces simply don't apply with medicine.

I have to leave now, but I can link you to surces that say exactly this. Or you can do your own search (you'll find both argued).
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Medicine isn't something we comparison shop, especially emergency medicine.

You don't right now because government ensures competence. If you didn't have that assurance, you would comparison shop, even ahead of time for emergency situations.

We have a hard time saying we'll let little suzzie suffer because it costs too much.

It happens all the time right now because the cost is too high.

No matter how many doctors we get, they will have plenty of patients to be busy, and thus, no need to lower prices.

Want to know why this is wrong? Imagine if everyone was a doctor. Then not everyone would have plenty of patients to be busy. My point? The market decides how many doctors there should be, and so we should follow the advice of the market. The huge salaries they command right now is indicative of the fact that there is a shortage of doctors. The fact that medical students need to do 80 hour a week internships shows that there is a huge shortage of doctors.

Prices are not up because of a doctor shortage, but because it requires a lot of expertise (not like 1910 when less was needed), and there is an expectation that the doctor actually know what he or she is doing. There is more technology, more procedures, greater call for specialization, and no real way to make things as simple as they were in 1910.

Yes, the specialization would command a higher salary because not everyone can acquire those skills. However, who are you to say that the number we have now is good? The number is capped, so we don't know how many would try to become doctors if that cap was relaxed. Wages would go down without that cap.

I realize this is counter intuative, and I have looked at it for a good many years. Normal market forces simply don't apply with medicine.

Guess I should just take your word for it. :roll:

I have to leave now, but I can link you to surces that say exactly this. Or you can do your own search (you'll find both argued).

I'm not doing your work. You show me the links.
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
72,771
Reaction score
37,864
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Something different. Not prue capitalsim and not prue socialism. Calling it socialism is lying. And calling it prue capitalism is lying. But it isn't new. We haven't had prue capitalism since the great depression. Even beforethat actually.

so, socialism = communism.


hm.


well, fortunately, there is, in fact, an ideology that matches what you are describing.

it's called Corporatism.
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
72,771
Reaction score
37,864
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

so let me get this straight; market forces don't provide us an optimum result for the distribution of health care resources because at some level we need health care resources in order to survive.

hm.

alright.

well then the same set of logic would have to apply to food, right? how has it worked out in nations where they nationalized food production? lots of fat people there and lots of starvation in the countries that leave such a necessary function up to the market forces?
 

Renae

Banned
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
50,241
Reaction score
19,243
Location
San Antonio Texas
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

so let me get this straight; market forces don't provide us an optimum result for the distribution of health care resources because at some level we need health care resources in order to survive.

hm.

alright.

well then the same set of logic would have to apply to food, right? how has it worked out in nations where they nationalized food production? lots of fat people there and lots of starvation in the countries that leave such a necessary function up to the market forces?

Market Forces my friend, cannot be pointed to as reasons to vote for X politician. Having a Medical System that has people reliant on the Gov't gives politicians a "Vote for me and I'll make sure you keep getting X, Y and Z free!!" And the dolts vote for em.
 

Crunch

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
4,063
Reaction score
890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

It's actually capitalism at its finest. Isn't competition good? I guess the private businesses don't like the idea of a government-run company competing with them. Can't take the heat or something.

The questionis..... wait for it....... will the government really compete, you know, make a profit, or will the government under bid all of the competition, run at a loss, with tax payers taking it in the ass again?
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

so, socialism = communism.


hm.


well, fortunately, there is, in fact, an ideology that matches what you are describing.

it's called Corporatism.

Being silly again? And I'm doing nothing of the kind. Try again.
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

You don't right now because government ensures competence. If you didn't have that assurance, you would comparison shop, even ahead of time for emergency situations.

No, you can't except for minor things. Serious things cannot be handled that way.

It happens all the time right now because the cost is too high.

No, we treat thema nd they don't pay. Happens daily.



Want to know why this is wrong? Imagine if everyone was a doctor. Then not everyone would have plenty of patients to be busy. My point? The market decides how many doctors there should be, and so we should follow the advice of the market. The huge salaries they command right now is indicative of the fact that there is a shortage of doctors. The fact that medical students need to do 80 hour a week internships shows that there is a huge shortage of doctors.

Again, you are going to unrealistic extremes. It would never be that high or anywhere near it. We'll never reach a satuation point. Medince requires enough learning and practice and money to naturally keep th number low enough to never satuate the market. And no, having worked in a teaching hospital, the 80 work week is not based on need, but tradition.

Yes, the specialization would command a higher salary because not everyone can acquire those skills. However, who are you to say that the number we have now is good? The number is capped, so we don't know how many would try to become doctors if that cap was relaxed. Wages would go down without that cap.

I'm all for relaxing the cap, and more in this bill is set up to encourage more GPs. But again, there will never be a satuation point.


Guess I should just take your word for it. :roll:

Why the silliness as I have suggested nothing of the kind. I've suggested that you look into it more.

I'm not doing your work. You show me the links.

I have never asked you to do my work, though you might do some of your own.

So what we have is a series of implausible claims, negative or insufficient evidence, and a clinical setting where self-deception is likely. This adds up to over a billion dollars of wasted health care dollars.

We have to confront the fact that this is what has and will happen in the absence of adequate regulation – the public will waste money on useless therapies, their attention and resourcesy may be diverted from more effective interventions, and some unscientific interventions may be directly harmful.

There is also no incentive for industry to spend time and money doing quality studies when they don’t have to. Sellers of copper bracelets were happy to do so for decades without studying their claims.

Further, most new health claims are going to turn out to be false. The lower the prior probability (by definition) the more likely the claims are to be false. So accross the board there is a great deal of risk and expense to products with untested or dubious health claims, and very little benefit.

Science-Based Medicine » Copper and Magnetic Bracelets for Arthritis

Why markets can’t cure healthcare - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com

How many do you want?
 

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Medicine today is not what it used to be...

Back in the late 40s I paid $27 a day for a hospital room, and the surgeon charged me $75 for a hernia operation. Compare that with today's costs.

ricksfolly
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Back in the late 40s I paid $27 a day for a hospital room, and the surgeon charged me $75 for a hernia operation. Compare that with today's costs.

ricksfolly

Yeah, compare your salery then to today. What did a gallon of gas go for? ;)
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
72,771
Reaction score
37,864
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Being silly again? And I'm doing nothing of the kind. Try again.

you certainly are. corporatism is alive, well, and the official policy of one and a half of our national parties.

but just for kicks, boo, you tell us, where is that shining line that once you cross you are in 'socialism'? :)
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

you certainly are. corporatism is alive, well, and the official policy of one and a half of our national parties.

but just for kicks, boo, you tell us, where is that shining line that once you cross you are in 'socialism'? :)

Yes, the moon is made of green cheese. :lamo


As for socialism, it has a definition. You cross the line when government takes over all or nearly all means of production. There is nothing today that has been here since the great depression. There is no prue capitalism today among major countries. And nothing today is any different than it has been. The argument of communism, socialism or even corporatism is a weak argument by those who can't legitimate oppose something, so they resort to silly labeling as a last resort.
 

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

Yes, the moon is made of green cheese. :lamo


As for socialism, it has a definition. You cross the line when government takes over all or nearly all means of production. There is nothing today that has been here since the great depression. There is no prue capitalism today among major countries. And nothing today is any different than it has been. The argument of communism, socialism or even corporatism is a weak argument by those who can't legitimate oppose something, so they resort to silly labeling as a last resort.

If you want to see the human side of socialism, Rent a movie called Reds. It's about Jack Reed, one of the early ones from the US...

ricksfolly
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: More crazy Harry Reid in action - Public Option not if but when, SS not going bro

If you want to see the human side of socialism, Rent a movie called Reds. It's about Jack Reed, one of the early ones from the US...

ricksfolly

All for a good movie, but I don't see what such has to do with my comment. But, if I get the chance, I'll check it out.
 
Top Bottom