Miss Universe Canada organizers boot transgender contestant

[DiAnna]

I don't think there's any problem with that. But consideration has to work both ways...

We once had a transgender person in the office (male-->female). "She" insisted on using the women's bathroom which was fine with everybody. But when she started peeing while standing up, in the women's bathroom, that was a bit disturbing to the women already in there. Transgender people also need to be cognizant of other people's feelings too. I say it's totally fine if people want to change gender if they feel different inside, but they must be aware that people who don't feel that way may not understand that, and compensate accordingly.

I have difficulty understanding how, in a women's bathroom, a transgendered person could be seen "peeing standing up." I've been in hundreds of women's bathrooms over the years. Not one of them had a urinal.

So unless these women were disturbed because they were peeking over/under the closed door of the commode, I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to them.

 

[DiAnna]

Again, I cannot understand the animosity posed here. Brains are complex, the human body is complex. I can't imagine waking up one day, looking in the mirror and seeing my face with the body of a man. It would destroy me, because my brain... the computer of my body, interpreter of my world... knows that I am a woman.

So much pain, such drastic, long-term agony to shape the body into something the brain can accept... who the hell would do such a thing unless it was to save their own sanity? How can we, who cannot possibly understand the deep horror in another's mind, refuse to allow them to become what their brain, their heart, their soul tells them that they are?

Do I think they should compete in pageants where surgical alterations are disallowed? No. Do I think they should be treated with contempt, and referred to as "it", hell no. They are unique individuals, who should be treated with respect and addressed as they are comfortable being addressed. Some of the posts in this thread make me sad, make me angry, make me feel the despair of those who have been torn their entire lives between who they know they are, and the body they possess.

It's none of our business. Let them become what they need to become, let them live the lives they need to live, and frankly shut the **** up with the bigoted insults that have no place in a civilized, compassionate society.

 

[Surtr]

What about a post op transsexuals body is male?

Everything, the surgery is just an alteration of that body. If that's what you want, it's your body to do with as you please, but the complex structures of that body are still male.

 

[The Mark]

I'm wondering how some of you would respond (if you were still alive) if/when at some point in the future it is possible to not only completely change the sex of a person, including all functions, but also change their very DNA so that they become a different person....




Would that new person still not be of a different sex?

 

[Surtr]

I'm wondering how some of you would respond (if you were still alive) if/when at some point in the future it is possible to not only completely change the sex of a person, including all functions, but also change their very DNA so that they become a different person....




Would that new person still not be of a different sex?

Genetic alteration is completely different. It's a process that would change the entire composition of the human body. In that instance, I would have to say that said person would truly become female.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Psychological harm to the transgendered individual. Im not saying that its going to seriously mess someone up or anything like that though. And even if it had the possibility to do that I would still support someones right to voice their opinion.

So, if I believed I was a shark, or even a Samoan, the right thing to do would be to refer to me as a shark or a Samoan?


Again if one want to change their genitalia, that's their prerogative. I support liberty and freedom. I believe however that should be a two way street, don't you

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

OK Shark.

What species?

It's The Good Reverend we are speaking of, only one apex pedator would do, the great white of course! impdaddy:

 

[Medusa]

that girl should compete in a transsexual beauty contest.

 

[Gipper]

I don't think a pre-op tranny would pee standing up. They really try to commit to the lie.

 

[Connery]

I will admit that in the second link they state they dont know exactly what causes gender identity. However they do state that "the scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain." What about the first link?

I found Harry Benjamin to be confusing and contradictory. Further the "Harry Benjamin Syndrome Site", relies on this publication Zhou J-N, Hofman MA, Gooren LJG, Swaab DF. (1995) A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature 378:68-70, to explain their position. The theory expressed in that publication has been countered and is in dispute:

"Nevertheless, for a time the Zhou/Kruijver data gave the brain-sex theory a certain superficial plausibility. In 2002, Chung et al. reported new data that raised serious doubts about the brain-sex theory, but the authors were able to explain why the theory might still be plausible. The new data reported by Hulshoff Pol et al. in 2006 did not invalidate these explanations, but it rendered them largely irrelevant. The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated.

The brain-sex theory was never helpful in explaining clinical observations; now it has become irrelevant to explaining neuroanatomical observations. It is time to abandon the brain-sex theory of transsexualism and to adopt a more plausible and clinically relevant theory in its place."

A Critique of the Brain-Sex Theory of Transsexualism


While a possibility, I still do not find that your position is conclusive.

 

[jamesrage]

How can they mean nothing?

How can the fact he is still a biological male mean nothing?

There are major differences in the male and female brain and transgendered individuals brains are more similar to the sex they identify as. You cannot just dismiss that evidence without some sort of proof that they are irrelevant.

The only thing the brain scans revele is that the individual is seriously ****ed up in the head.

She is not a male. She used to be male yes but now she is female.

A male that is surgically altered to look like a female is still a male.Just like a Caucasian who is surgically altered to look like a African American is still a Caucasian.

Again she is not a drag queen.

Yes he is.He is a male dressing up as the opposite sex and impersonating the opposite sex.So he is a drag queen.

And calling a transsexual a tranny is pretty much like calling a homosexual a faggot.

No its not. Calling a tranny a tranny is calling then a transvestite.A transvestite is someone who dresses as and acts like the opposite sex.You should at least look up a dictionary before spouting nonsense.
Tranny | Define Tranny at Dictionary.com
2. a transvestite

 

[jamesrage]

It's none of our business.

Amazing how people who say that want the government to recognize that man as a woman, want the miss universe contest as well as any other pageants for women to recognize that man as a woman and they want everyone else to recognize that man as a woman.

 

[Omgitsme]

So, if I believed I was a shark, or even a Samoan, the right thing to do would be to refer to me as a shark or a Samoan?


Again if one want to change their genitalia, that's their prerogative. I support liberty and freedom. I believe however that should be a two way street, don't you

People always use the "what if I thought I was an animal argument". Tell you what if you find a group of people who say they believe they were born the wrong species and that their brains were more similar to that species then I will accept that argument. But until then its a ridiculous argument stolen from a T.V. show that is meant to be ridiculous.

I agree that someone should be able to change their sex. Assuming that they go through the standards of care.

 

[jamesrage]

People always use the "what if I thought I was an animal argument".

Ignoring biology regarding gender is no different than ignoring biology regarding species. So a person who claims they are a cat trapped in a man's body is just as insane as someone who thinks they are a woman trapped in a man's body or a woman who thinks they are a man trapped in a woman's body or a Caucasian who thinks he is African American or a African American who thinks he is a Caucasian trapped in a African American's body.

Tell you what if you find a group of people who say they believe they were born the wrong species and that their brains were more similar to that species then I will accept that argument. But until then its a ridiculous argument stolen from a T.V. show that is meant to be ridiculous.

I agree that someone should be able to change their sex. Assuming that they go through the standards of care.

So if a Caucasian makes their skin black and claims he is a African American then he is a African American?

 

[Omgitsme]

I found Harry Benjamin to be confusing and contradictory. Further the "Harry Benjamin Syndrome Site", relies on this publication Zhou J-N, Hofman MA, Gooren LJG, Swaab DF. (1995) A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature 378:68-70, to explain their position. The theory expressed in that publication has been countered and is in dispute:

"Nevertheless, for a time the Zhou/Kruijver data gave the brain-sex theory a certain superficial plausibility. In 2002, Chung et al. reported new data that raised serious doubts about the brain-sex theory, but the authors were able to explain why the theory might still be plausible. The new data reported by Hulshoff Pol et al. in 2006 did not invalidate these explanations, but it rendered them largely irrelevant. The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated.

The brain-sex theory was never helpful in explaining clinical observations; now it has become irrelevant to explaining neuroanatomical observations. It is time to abandon the brain-sex theory of transsexualism and to adopt a more plausible and clinically relevant theory in its place."

A Critique of the Brain-Sex Theory of Transsexualism


While a possibility, I still do not find that your position is conclusive.

Is that paper peer reviewed? And I checked up on the author. And she seems to be in the minority on her beliefs. And her beliefs are kind of out there sometimes.

 

[Omgitsme]

1. How can the fact he is still a biological male mean nothing?


2. The only thing the brain scans revele is that the individual is seriously ****ed up in the head.



3. A male that is surgically altered to look like a female is still a male.Just like a Caucasian who is surgically altered to look like a African American is still a Caucasian.


4. Yes he is.He is a male dressing up as the opposite sex and impersonating the opposite sex.So he is a drag queen.



No its not. Calling a tranny a tranny is calling then a transvestite.A transvestite is someone who dresses as and acts like the opposite sex.You should at least look up a dictionary before spouting nonsense.
Tranny | Define Tranny at Dictionary.com
2. a transvestite

1. Because there are women out there who are biologically male and they are still considered women.

2. First of all I am not ****ed up in the head. And secondly how does that possibly show that?

3. See point 1.

4. A drag queen is normally a gay man who dresses up as a woman occasionally as a form of entertainment. They still identify as a man. A transsexual lives as a woman full time and identifies as a woman. They dont do it just as a form of entertainment. Seriously if you have no clue about this subject you probably shouldnt just start posting things.

5. A transsexual is not a transvestite. A transvestite in America is someone who dresses up in female clothing for sexual pleasure. In England it is the same thing as a crossdresser. Maybe you should start looking things up first.

transvestite (trænzˈvɛstaɪt)

— n
a person who seeks sexual pleasure from wearing clothes that are normally associated with the opposite sex

Transvestite | Define Transvestite at Dictionary.com

Again if you dont know something about this subject maybe you should educate yourself first before you post.

 

[Connery]

I agree that someone should be able to change their sex. Assuming that they go through the standards of care.

Change their sex yes, but, not try to force that change upon others and compel them to think differently, that is the only reason to bring this out onto the spotlight. Sex reassignment surgery has been around since approximately 1930 and in fact Christine Jorgensen, who received hers circa1950-1952, purportedly attended the high school I was enrolled in (years before me). This is not new and there are no walls to break down regarding a beauty contest. As far as I am concerned the contestant merely wanted a drama added to their life and they got it.

I do not hate them, I do not love them, I do not care what people do regarding anything associated with their sex or sex life. People no matter what they are get the same level of respect from me as I would like myself.

 

[Omgitsme]

Ignoring biology regarding gender is no different than ignoring biology regarding species. So a person who claims they are a cat trapped in a man's body is just as insane as someone who thinks they are a woman trapped in a man's body or a woman who thinks they are a man trapped in a woman's body or a Caucasian who thinks he is African American or a African American who thinks he is a Caucasian trapped in a African American's body.



So if a Caucasian makes their skin black and claims he is a African American then he is a African American?

Again see my argument for AIS women being biologically male but still women. And btw I was talking about brain scans not genetics. So yeah if you can find a group of people who have brain scans more similar to another species then your argument might hold water.

And as far as race go there isnt really any major differences between the brains of different races and as far as I know there is no group of people claiming that they were born the wrong race. Arguments like this are just red herrings.

 

[Omgitsme]

Change their sex yes, but, not try to force that change upon others and compel them to think differently, that is the only reason to bring this out onto the spotlight. Sex reassignment surgery has been around since approximately 1930 and in fact Christine Jorgensen, who received hers circa1950-1952, purportedly attended the high school I was enrolled in (years before me). This is not new and there are no walls to break down regarding a beauty contest. As far as I am concerned the contestant merely wanted a drama added to their life and they got it.

I do not hate them, I do not love them, I do not care what people do regarding anything associated with their sex or sex life. People no matter what they are get the same level of respect from me as I would like myself.

I agree they shouldnt be forced to change sex. And if they wanted drama then why did she hide the fact that they were trans on the application? She just wanted to participate in the beauty pageant.

 

[Connery]

I agree they shouldnt be forced to change sex. And if they wanted drama then why did she hide the fact that they were trans on the application?

Due to the rules of the event and Talackova knew the rules. Talackova's are own words.....“I feel like the universe, the creator just put me in this position as an advocate,” she said. “And now it’s like this, and I’ll take that position. If it’s helping anybody else, my story and my actions, then I feel great about it.” Advocate Talackova did, replete with the drama and the fan fare that accompanies this type situation. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, however, there are other more effective ways that have a wider breath of impact for those Talackova wants to advocate for.

She just wanted to participate in the beauty pageant

Baloney...I also have a bridge I want to sell you.

 

[DiAnna]

Amazing how people who say that want the government to recognize that man as a woman, want the miss universe contest as well as any other pageants for women to recognize that man as a woman and they want everyone else to recognize that man as a woman.

Except you cut off the part of my post where I said that a transgendered woman should not be allowed to compete in pageants that disallow contestants with surgical enhancements. Don't misrepresent what I have said, and I'll return the favor.

 

[Ometauru]

Granted I've only skimmed through the thread, but did the "these women aren't even real women" people ever comment on the men born with XX chromosomes? As a Medical Student, we see these sorts of abnormalities all day. It's pretty insulting to have people with narrow minds try to categorize complex things into simple categories. There are infants born with ambiguous genitalia. There are infants born with both sets of reproductive organs. There are children born with neither. How would you fit all of those into your narrow categories? For the ambiguous ones, there are several times where the doctor has to decide if the baby appears more male or female and basically do surgery to make it appear closer to one or the other. And they don't always guess correctly.

Where do you guys draw the line? Are people born without a leg even real people? Are people with severe mental disabilities real people? They don't fit several of the characteristics that are used to define people (four limbs; fully functional cognitive abilities).

And here's to hoping that this post doesn't get conveniently ignored.

EDITED because I was going on zero sleep after an exam. I meant men with XX chromosomes.

Called it that this would be ignored.

People see black and white and ignore exceptions. Speaking of the black and white issue: Could Michael Jackson enter a blacks only competition? What about albino black people? Actually in this day and age you'd call them African American competitions. Could somebody from South Africa that immigrated here enter one of those and win without facing public backlash?

"And here's to hoping that this post doesn't get conveniently ignored."

 

[Ikari]

Why would I give a **** if it's accurate or not? I know it's not accurate.

But if one is wishing to be accurate, they would not call me God. In fact I'd say the rational answer is to roll your eyes and call me an idiot if I were to ever truly profess myself as god. So while one can say “sure, it’s not a problem to call you X”, and it’s likely not, it is not unreasonable to say “I shall not call you X since you are Y”. Someone being of Y has no reasonable expectation that everyone else refer to them as X.

 

[Gipper]

Someone being of Y has no reasonable expectation that everyone else refer to them as X.

Especially if a contest is only open to X.

If a dude wanted to compete in a beauty pageant, we'd argue that he's an attention whore. I see no difference if the dude enjoys wearing a dress and calling himself a woman. The only difference is the shock value involved.

It sounds like people who do strange things and think strange thoughts should not be offended when people view them as strange.

 

[Omgitsme]

Due to the rules of the event and Talackova knew the rules. Talackova's are own words.....“I feel like the universe, the creator just put me in this position as an advocate,” she said. “And now it’s like this, and I’ll take that position. If it’s helping anybody else, my story and my actions, then I feel great about it.” Advocate Talackova did, replete with the drama and the fan fare that accompanies this type situation. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, however, there are other more effective ways that have a wider breath of impact for those Talackova wants to advocate for.

Baloney...I also have a bridge I want to sell you.

I dont think she is saying she joined the pageant to be an advocate. To me it sounds like she is saying after her outing in the pageant she felt like the creator put her in that position to be an advocate. She tried to hide the fact that she was trans and someone discovered her. She never mentioned her being trans until someone outed her.